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mind pattern

Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:56 am
by tikey
I often have this mind-pattern problem in which I tend to be stuck for a long periods of time.

Mind pattern says something like that:

1.I have a problem.
2.The problem is that I'm not "in the now".
3.Because of that problem I have no access to the "space of no thought" from where all the true relationship come from.
4.I cannot have any true relationship until I enter the now.

Can anyone help me with that?

Re: mind pattern

Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 1:16 am
by Onceler
I don't understand how you got from 1 to 3?

Maybe if you sort that out it will help. Sorry I can't be of any more help....

Onceler

Re: mind pattern

Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 1:35 am
by kiki
I often have this mind-pattern problem in which I tend to be stuck for a long periods of time.
Mind pattern says something like that:

1.I have a problem.
2.The problem is that I'm not "in the now".
3.Because of that problem I have no access to the "space of no thought" from where all the true relationship come from.
4.I cannot have any true relationship until I enter the now.
1. It boils down to this: there is no "I", so stop believing what the mind/I says.
2. It is always "now", and you, the real you, is always here.
3. What is wanting a true "relationship"?
4. See #2.

You are still believing in "me". Have you found any such character? Maybe it's time to look for it. If it isn't real then why believe in the "problems" it conjures up? What's vital is discovering the ego for what it is, a phantom of the mind sustained by believing its stories. Actually look for it and discover its illusory nature, then the beliefs/problems it comes up with can be seen for what they are - just more illusions.

Re: mind pattern

Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:05 am
by heidi
Excellent response, K. How true.

Re: mind pattern

Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:26 am
by astaroth
yes, very good answer, kiki!

From the perspective which you really are, the perspective of seeing, this so-called "problematic" mind-pattern is just seen. Pure seeing doesn't judge the object of perception. What thinks has to be rid of something is your idea of "me", your false self, your ego, call it like you want to...
In your case you - your true nature - you observe this "me" which thinks it isn't in the now (what is impossible, by the way. you can't make the now more or less "nower" than it already is), which then makes a problem out of it. And which furthermore thinks it can't have true relationsships which it prefers over the actual (the now's) kinds of relationships.
But this all, including "yourself", your false self, are just objects of perception which the eternity has produced just for you. Like it or not, it's the now in every case. :wink: So better like it, my advice :lol:

astaroth

Re: mind pattern

Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:19 pm
by tikey
all right I understand your answears. They're really great. It was just mind pattern, a thoughts that started to mess around my head and stopped me
stuck in it. Sometimes I flee from the now and just cannot "synchronize myself" and then those thought's appear. Really compulsive, and disturbing.
Any way to avoid them? Just wash them out?

Re: mind pattern

Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 11:03 pm
by dubhasa
tikey wrote:all right I understand your answears. They're really great. It was just mind pattern, a thoughts that started to mess around my head and stopped me
stuck in it. Sometimes I flee from the now and just cannot "synchronize myself" and then those thought's appear. Really compulsive, and disturbing.
Any way to avoid them? Just wash them out?
What I found useful was visualization process. If you can visualize releasing thoughts with any good image, like putting it in a bubble or washing it away. Any crazy trick would do. It may be difficult initially but it works.

Re: mind pattern

Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 11:49 pm
by tikey
yeah that trick would be usefull, but the problem is that: what would change if it was ego itself making that trick? :)
I just sometimes find it hard to relax and so I got anxious and cought up in thought... this brings up stress, contraction... and then my ego
is everywhere, and since I can't even recognize it how can I help myself?

Re: mind pattern

Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 1:37 am
by kiki
tikey wrote:Any way to avoid them? Just wash them out?
You could avoid them if you were their author, but you aren't. They arise on their own, spontaneously; but it seems to me that you are still believing/thinking that they are "yours". "You" would like to get rid of them, to wash them away, but "you" aren't real. How can a mentally based and fictional entity get rid of anything? It can't. All that can be done is to witness them and to realize that there isn't anyone real who is creating those thoughts. When ego struggles to get rid of mind all that happens is that mind activity remains firmly in place. When the realization arises that you aren't the ego but the witnessing consciousness, the rug gets pulled from beneath the ego's feet and mental activity subsides all by itself.

Re: mind pattern

Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 1:43 am
by tikey
all right. I think it's tough for me to believe that I do not think those thoughts, but that thinking happens to me. Does what you say means that I should
try to be ignorant towards my mind and thus I would free myself from it?

Re: mind pattern

Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 2:45 am
by weopposedeception
That would be resistance.
Let the mind do whatever it wants, let it have unlimited space. What is this space?

Re: mind pattern

Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 5:58 am
by kiki
tikey wrote:Does what you say means that I should
try to be ignorant towards my mind and thus I would free myself from it?
Believing that "you" generate thoughts is what keeps thought in place, keeps thought going; you'll notice this especially when the "you" (ET's "little me") tries to get rid of mental activity. But that "you" is itself comprised solely of thought - "you" are nothing but a bundle of thought that is identified with. So logically, thought cannot get rid of thought. What is necessary is the seeing/realization of this rather than simply the conceptual understanding of it. This is the value of ET's portals and Ramana's self-inquiry.

There is no "me" to get free of mind. Mind will always be there, though not always active. When mind is no longer active the "me" doesn't exist, does it, yet there still remains the sense that "something" is still here - that "something" is actually no "thing" at all - it is consciousness/Being/presence, and it's THAT that is real because it's always here and never changes. While consciously abiding in that consciousness there will be the witnessing of mental activity as it periodically arises, but now there is the knowing that that mental activity can't be you, so identification with it begins to dissolve. With that disidentification comes the natural and spontaneous decrease in thought-stream. Do you see? If thought (the little me) makes attempts to get rid of thought or to control it, how can thought then cease? This would be like standing on a board and trying to lift yourself off the ground.

You may find it helpful, therefore, to simply not believe anything that arises in the mind. Try a little experiment: Give yourself permission to simply stop believing anything/everything that comes up in the mind, even the so-called "good stuff". Do this for an hour and see what happens. Just as you would tend to ignore the statements of a known liar, even if they seem reasonable, ignore the "truthfulness" of anything that comes up in the mind. Simply be cognizant that thoughts have arisen but are no longer "true"; even if a label comes up don't believe it, just be aware that there is simply some "label", but the label itself isn't "true" - every label, every name is nothing but a concept, they contain no truth. This will aid in realizing that "truth" isn't what's in the mind but in what witnesses the mind in all its various forms.

The bottom line is that thoughts are not an enemy. They only seem to be enemies to thought itself, the ego, the one who would prefer they not be there.

Re: mind pattern

Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 1:08 pm
by tikey
kiki wrote:Try a little experiment: Give yourself permission to simply stop believing anything/everything that comes up in the mind, even the so-called "good stuff". Do this for an hour and see what happens.
Ok I'll try that.

Re: mind pattern

Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 3:39 pm
by tikey
kiki I have to write to you about an effect I had after just watching my ming and not attaching to the thought's. At first there is a subtle change of my
personality... If I get detached from my thought's I become different... let's say my energy field is changing... and then when I'm free of mind I'm
in some transitional stage... like I was a kid again.... and the mind is my tormentor... and then I'm the kid which keeps disidentified from tormentor....
escapes from him... frees himself... and then.... there is this period when I feel like a child.... I'm aware of this... And today when I was on that
stage I put on my ears Eckhart and listened (Entering the Now) and he said to be present with every cell of the body... and then this "kid" which I felt
I was was instantly filled with ME.... hahahahahahahah..... gergous feeling... being completely present....

thank's kiki, I'm totaly thankfull towards you for having this experience, but it was only an experience... it remained for about half an hour
total process took about one hour.... thirty minutes of buildup (watching thoughts) then Eckhart on headphones, and then 30 minutes of
presence... and then I felt like I sliped on a banana skin... and become less present again......

but thank's for overall concept... a method.... maybe I could get used to repeat this stages and then maybe one day I wouldn't feel my self "sliped
on banana skin" and this delightfull presence would remain for longer time.... maybe forever.... that's just all I wan't.... don't wan't to be
buddha or enlightened.... just to be maximum present... (and maybe that's the same? :D )