anyone else experience an "echo" of thought?

Here you may share how the words Eckhart Tolle have affected your life.
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Re: anyone else experience an "echo" of thought?

Post by Sighclone » Mon Sep 29, 2008 5:20 am

I've had a recent similar experience. In an attempt to ask a question of my wife about her feelings about something, both painbodies got triggered and we had an argument. But I was also the witness to both sides of it. Basically it was my ego arguing with her painbody. And she has read Eckhart and Byron Katie and Elizabeth Lesser and others - intellectually, she "gets" all of it. But there is so much deep dysfunctional conditioning from her family of origin, and so much codependence with her only son who had to move back in with us (age 25) recently, that she just tees off now and then...and there was my ego/painbody responding. I've often just stepped away, but this time I defended myself - believe it or not, the topic was laundry.

Anyway, yes, I think we can often see our ego or painbody in action, while really we are at Source, and this is all ripples. Even my active ego/painbody, though is much less enegized - like you mentioned.

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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updates

Post by premiumphoto » Thu Nov 13, 2008 5:14 am

Hello again all. I wanted to update the forum on what has continued to happen to me since I first made this topic. It has been an extremely difficult several weeks. I feel very much like I have come out of an illusory fog and can see the reality of the world. Sometimes I feel like I am watching a movie. I have been experiencing extreme sadness over past events I never gave much of a thought to. For instance, the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The death, destruction, madness. The US forreign policy of fighting violence with greater violence. I have been dealing with extreme fear for the future, my life, my daughter's life, my wife's life. I wanted to run away to the forests of New Zealand and hide from a crazy world. Things that I have seen and insights that I have had that seem so logical and rational have been called "crazy" by family that know me and love me the most. I began to write down the insights I was seeing while realizing that these were no more "MY" insights just as reading a classic literary work was not "MY" writing.

While allowing the fear to be there, and while watching my mind, the realization came that it really didn't matter if I died or if my daughter or wife died. Death is not the "worse thing in the whole world." Then, with that realization, the fear went away. It was there to take me out of now and into an imagined, uncertain future that I judged as "bad." I have been asleep for so long. A worse fate is for my earthy body to die without waking up. With that said, I would like to share some "crazy" insights I have had with the group. My thoughts are to keep the posts within this one topic rather than to start five to ten other posts. No need to monopolize the forum. Moderators, give me your thoughts.

Don

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Re: anyone else experience an "echo" of thought?

Post by Sighclone » Thu Nov 13, 2008 8:26 am

pmp -

This forum is full of very personal statements and some ideas that could easily be labelled "crazy" by others. We are not judgemental, as a rule here. One of the great strengths of this forum is the acceptance of people's tales of life on the field of Arjuna.

This thread is in the "Personal Experiences" section and as far as I am concerned, it can stay right here and others can respond as they choose. "Personal Experiences" does not exclude much, so I say let 'er rip right in this thread. Many of us have read your story and have respect and concern for you. Don't worry about monopolizing the forum. Nonesense or non-related threads are removed. I have seen nothing inappropriate from you, indeed, your story is like many others of people emerging into awareness with large quantities of egoic baggage and relatives...like Eckhart!! (and like me..)

I know I'm sounding like a broken record, but Nanci Danison's new book "Backwards" is fascinating - she had a very powerful near-death experience with many nondual elements; she quotes and respects ET.

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: anyone else experience an "echo" of thought?

Post by domokato » Thu Nov 13, 2008 8:53 pm

premiumphoto,

Great thread. I just got through reading it finally. Your insight about your pain-body's effect on your daughter makes me consider my pain-body's effect on my puppy. Great circus analogy, too.

I think it would be better for you to start new threads for your other insights to keep them organized :)
~housecat

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Re: anyone else experience an "echo" of thought?

Post by premiumphoto » Fri Nov 14, 2008 12:28 am

Ok. I will start here, if the moderators feel these insights need another thread, that is fine. They are simply what I am seeing. And again, these are not MY insights. They belong to everyone.


On Balance.

The Buddha, while meditating under the bodhi tree discovered the “middle way”. Neither indulgence nor austerity lead to enlightenment. The middle way is the way of truth. But it is also the way of BALANCE. Balance is profoundly relevant to enlightenment. What the Buddha is describing in the middle way is the way of balance. Yet, without enlightenment or full realization, no one can really BE balanced. Balance is where all truth resides. Yet, for the unconscious, there is no way to see something you are blinded to.

Yet ironically most everyone feels they are balanced. No one, when questioned, thinks their ideas are “extreme.“ They may recognize their own ideas or beliefs as being different from the mainstream, but then they will also think that the mainstream is imbalanced. No one says “yes I have extremist political views” or “I am a member of a radical fundamentalist cult with extremist ideas.“ The best unconscious people can do is to recognize that their views are different from others and that possibly only a few people or groups share the same ideas. They will then think everyone else is wrong and imbalanced.

One does not even have to hold “extremist” views in order to be imbalanced. Imbalance is the state of being of the unconscious. To be fully conscious, to be fully enlightened, to be fully awake, is to simply see things as they really are. To put it another way, balance is to see the whole of reality- of how things truly are and not just one facet or slice of reality. This pure balanced seeing is not informed by dogmas, creeds, political positions, religious traditions, ideologies, ethnocentricities, beliefs, propaganda, spin, worldviews, or cultures. Such is the definition of balanced from a spiritual standpoint.

When you see things as they really are, illusion falls away. Or, more specifically, you see the illusion as illusion- for what it really is. The things that pretend in life are exposed for what they are- vapor, illusion, lies. Now instead of "trying" to be balanced, you just "are." Without waking up, the best one can do is to remain consistent within the illusion of self, society, and false reality. The middle way is the way of balance. Balance is the state of the fully awake. No one can truly BE balanced until the awake essence that is the real “you” is revealed from under all the layers of ego identification, pain body, and illusion. This is why waking up is so important and why we must evolve as the human race if we are to survive. People are killing each other to defend their own personal illusions. There is no way to be balanced without waking up.

Looking back on my own beginnings of awakening I can see that it has been more of a process than one big event. As I have gone further from the initial experience I had that I described in my first post on this thread, more things have become more clear. I’m not sure how my experience fits in with those who have had a full awakening like ET. It has been a process for me and one I have had to really be present for. Times when I thought I was back tracking, I was really progressing.

This is enough for now. All comments are welcome.

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Re: anyone else experience an "echo" of thought?

Post by Sighclone » Fri Nov 14, 2008 4:01 am

pmp-

Process is the more conventional way. Adya took 15 years. I like your comments/experience of the middle way.

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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on Ultimate Truth

Post by premiumphoto » Fri Nov 14, 2008 6:55 am

On Ultimate Truth


There are three concepts that have no opposite. Love and life, the first two, have been discussed before by ET. Yet what I have not seen discussed is that truth itself has no opposite. Truth is. Everything else is simply illusion. Yet illusion is not the opposite of truth. Neither is falsehood or a lie. A lie is not the opposite of truth. A lie is simply an illusion about something. The word truth has been misused just as the word “love.” “Chocolate icecream tastes good.” True or false? It depends on who you ask. Some like it. Others don’t. It can be said that the “truth” of the statement depends on the taste buds of the people who eat it. Yet, ultimate truth, ultimate reality, seeing things as they really are, is not dependent on personal preferences.

Ultimate truth is.

This “truth” is different than the word “correct.“ True and false are opposites when used commonly to refer to “correct” and “incorrect.“ Ultimate truth cannot be experienced by the unconscious mind. Illusions are powerful. Illusion is illusion. People are trapped in many different kinds. It is easy to see illusion in others who are hidden beneath illusion that is different from our own.

Truth is as vast and as all encompassing as “love.” Love and truth are partners in the endless sea of reality. They have no opposites because there is nothing as deep and as vast and as real that is “other” than or “opposite” to them. We simply need different words. “Truth” and “love” have been so misused and have become synonymous with “correct” and “like a lot.” How sad that the nature of the reality of Truth and Love is obscured by common mis-definitions!

The noble eightfold path can only be faithfully followed by someone fully awake. Otherwise, we have exchanged one set of programming for another. If we follow the path with the illusion of our worldview, we only obtain religious practice. We are not capable, without consciousness, to experience right thoughts, right actions, right meditations, etc. Without the light of consciousness removing illusion from our senses, we cannot determine what these right actions are. That is why there is value in sitting with a guru or other enlightened master. If we have no light of our own, the best we can do is stand behind someone who does. Or follow the light they have provided (PON ANE). Often it is easy to simply “follow” a master, when in fact we should go where his or her light points. At some time, if you are always following the master, he will eventually be in the way, and you will need your own light. But you cannot walk alone until your own light of consciousness has burned away your illusions.

If we replace the word “right” in the noble eight fold path with the word “true”, I think we get a better understanding of what the Buddha truly meant. I think the Buddha was saying more than “correct” or “right” actions. He was speaking from a deeper sense of “true” actions. Not simply “correct” actions. True in the sense of that deeper truth that is all that is. True in the sense of all encompassing and coming from unencumbered reality that sees clearly everything in its real nature. This truth we cannot know without being awake. And I think the eight fold path becomes effortless when we become awake. There is value in spiritual practice at any stage in our developing consciousness- as long as we are not practicing “in order to obtain” something. Rather, we practice because we already HAVE attained. This used to make no sense at all to me. When you live in a world where lies are taught as true, truth itself seems crazy in comparison!

Peace

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The Most Spiritual Teaching

Post by premiumphoto » Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:09 am

I think the most spiritual lesson anyone can learn is this:

Wherever you are, whatever you are doing, be there fully present.

Nothing more is needed.

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Raging at Zebras

Post by premiumphoto » Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:21 am

I have spent a good part of my life raging at Zebras- Pleading angrily with the Zebra to lose his stripes. They are'nt efficient, aren't pretty to look at, are too monochromatic, too bland, etc. The fact is, the Zebra will always have its stripes even if he himself does not like them. My raging at him does not and will not and can not change this. Things that seem so clear to me are darkness to the blind man. Raging at the blind man will not make him see. How often I have hidden my own blindness beneath the blindness of others as if somehow their blindness is worse than mine. I've been angry at a lot of blind men, including myself. Acceptance. One small word with huge spiritual significance.

It is as it is.

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Re: anyone else experience an "echo" of thought?

Post by Sighclone » Mon Feb 16, 2009 5:34 am

nice, pmp...reminds me of an old Sufi phrase:

"Do not hate the desert because there is no rain."

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: anyone else experience an "echo" of thought?

Post by premiumphoto » Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:11 am

UPDATE: I have been getting more clarity recently and wanted to share some insights again. The depression I had been feeling was due to seeing ego acutely in myself and in others and in history. It was overwhelming until I had some insights I will share in the form of a letter I sent to a Christian friend of mine. My hope is that it will turn the light on for others as it did me.

Peace

Don


Ben, I have had some insights in my heart recently that I wanted to share with you. First, I consider you my spiritual brother. The differences in religion really don’t matter to me. They are only different vocabulary to describe what cannot be described by words. Much of this has come from my meditations after having an experience similar to what you have described to me that you once had- a temporary lifting of the veil of illusion and a taste of the real.

When I had my experience, there was much joy and peace. Then I started observing ego in me and others where I had not discovered it before. You would call this “pride” and I have heard you over almost 20 years recount your struggle with it. The reason I do not call it “pride” is that it is more than an emotion like arrogance. The “ego” is that part of you that is pretending to be you but isn’t. It can control your thoughts and if you identify with it as “you”, you can become lost in it. Most people are completely lost in ego. The real “self” is buried under a mountain of ego.

But anyway, back to my story. I began to get very depressed over seeing ego in even the “good” things I was doing. There seemed to be so much of it, that I wondered where “I” was in all of it. Then the realization hit me. God was not allowing me to observe ego in myself and in others so I would feel depressed and worthless! That was actually ego judging me for observing it! I would feel guilty for noticing the weaknesses and flaws of others until I realized that the observation of ego or “pride” in another is not necessarily driven by my own ego. There are two ways to observe ego. One is by awareness or presence itself. The other is by ego observing itself. How to tell the difference? It is easy! If the observation of ego in self or another is accompanied by a judgment, it is of the ego. If the observation is made with no judgment, it is of awareness or consciousness. I have sensed much frustration in your writings through the years when you see many layers of “pride” in yourself. Yet, the observation of ego in self should be a time of rejoicing! Why? Because only through present moment conscious awareness of ego can one see it disappear or transmuted! The flashlight does not judge the darkness to which it destroys. God will not take your pride away from you. It is not a thorn in your side or a cross to bear! These descriptions are simply ego trying desperately to maintain a hold on you. “You will never get rid of me!” it says. Ego dissolves in presence, in awareness itself. Rejoice when you see it in yourself because by seeing it, you conquer it without struggle or judgment! There is no battle just as the light does not battle the darkness. Rejoice my friend, rejoice! Most people are lost in ego to the point where there is a robotic approach to life that isn’t really living. It is ok to observe it in others because it is a focal point for compassion, not judgment. When Jesus saw the crowds, he had compassion on them. I think it was because he was overwhelmed with the ego he observed. What did he tell them among other things? Don’t judge!- the number one thing the ego does. The ego needs to be right. It needs to become bigger by making others less. The only way to conquer it is by not fighting. Instead just look. Observe. Watch without judgment. And then watch what happens to your spiritual life! “Thank you Lord for showing me what is real and what is ego in me!!”

Pray about this. Call it pride or whatever you like. And please know I think about you often.


Don

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Re: anyone else experience an "echo" of thought?

Post by Webwanderer » Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:46 pm

Thanks for the update Don. Inspiring. The ego identity cannot long survive in the light of clear presence. What a great insight this is:
If the observation of ego in self or another is accompanied by a judgment, it is of the ego. If the observation is made with no judgment, it is of awareness or consciousness.
WW

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Re: anyone else experience an "echo" of thought?

Post by karmarider » Fri Mar 27, 2009 4:17 pm

This whole awakening business is not easy or hard, but it does seem to be delicate and slippery. Tolle suggests the test is simple: ask yourself if you feel lighter, easier, more joyful? It's a good test, but I've answered no to this more than yes in the last three years. It turns even that has been a good thing because it helps drop expectations of particular experiences. There have moments of revelations, like yours pmp, and also long periods of apathy, detachment, anxiety, fear, doubt...possibly this has been old stuff coming up? Every revelation has been wrong. This too, it turns out, has been a good thing, because it helps drop the need to understand. An important shift came about when I was able to drop "I should be different." In the end, whatever happens, is perfect.

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awakening

Post by premiumphoto » Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:05 pm

I can understand the above post. For a long while after my initial awakening, I slipped into a depression which was made far worse by my thinking I should "not" be feeling as I was- and for identifying with the depression as "me." I had become so acutely aware of ego in my own life, that I wondered where the "real" me was. When I began to observe the depression and not resist it, when I allowed it to be without judging whether or not I should be feeling it or not, when I simply did not mind being depressed, it lifted. It was as if I gave it space to be and did not contribute the energy of resistance to it. It was in my field of awareness, but it wasn't "me".

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You can never lose Presence

Post by premiumphoto » Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:22 pm

The following was again written to my Orthodox Christian friend. I use Christian phrases as this is what he relates to. I do not personally see "Presence" as a persoanl God, rather an "energy of truth" of which we are all a part of at our core. I offer it here as a realization that has dramatically transformed my own spiritual life and in hopes that it will help others.


Ben, tonight’s meditation lead to some insights as I reflected on some of
your statements of late. You mentioned on a couple of occasions that you
are careful about what you read as it takes you out of God’s Presence.
And, that when you sin, you lose the presence of God until you repent. May
I offer these insights?

You cannot ever “lose” Presence. You can only lose your AWARENESS of
Presence. God cannot withdraw His Presence from you as there is nowhere
that He is not. Our awareness of Presence is indeed affected by what we
allow to enter our mind and if we become identified with ego mind
structures or thoughts. If we “sin”, or engage in activity that
temporarily gratifies the ego, we can indeed lose awareness of Presence,
but not Presence Himself. The Presence of God is everywhere. We are aware
of it or we are not aware of it. A Saint could detect the Presence of God
in the most wicked of brothels, if his intent in going there was virtuous
and not carnal. It is our state of consciousness when taking actions, and
not the actions themselves which play an important roll in determining our
awareness of Presence. That is why making legalistic rules for ourselves
or others does not lead to spiritual growth. All things are permissible to
the fully conscious. That is, things are permissible that are done with
unselfish, present awareness instead of mindless ego gratification. It is
not the acts themselves, but the state of consciousness that determines
awareness of Presence. The more conscious we become, the more aware of presence we
become. You can momentarily lose the awareness of Presence when guilt and
sadness creep into your mind -like static overcoming a TV reception. The
signal is still just as strong, but you have momentarily lost the ability
to pick it up. When you purge your mind from the emotions of guilt and sadness through
repentance, you once again regain awareness, while the Presence of God was
always there, like the TV signal, and just as strong as ever- and can
never be lost.


believe truth is ultimately very simple- yet very profound. If I had been told 20
years ago that my not "feeling" God's presence did not mean he had
withdrawn his presence from me, it would have revolutionized my spiritual
life. If I had been told that God does not have angry spats that require
me to repent before he will "get over" being upset with me and then "come
back" so I can feel him, I would not have continued to hit wall after
wall.

To use words like "God withdraws his presence" when I do X, no matter how it is said,
is a wrong presentation of what is really going on. The pointers are not
pointing to truth. It is simply a false statement. "My awareness of God's
presence deminishes when I do X" is using Christian pointers correctly and
does not lead one to incorrectly conclude that Presence can be lost.

Guilt and shame (and the resistance to feeling it) will disrupt the field of awareness by themselves, whether
or not there is really any "reason" to feel guilt and shame. That is why the
liturgical sections on guilt and shame (even if you lived like a Saint the
prior week) is disruptive of awareness. Doing something simply because it
is ancient does not make it true. You can convince yourself you have
"sinned" even if there has been no cosmic offense, and the result will be
deminished awareness. These are important truths that anyone on the
mystical path needs to understand but will be difficult to come to if
Christians are teaching that God withdraws his presence everytime we make
him "mad" at us.

Peace,

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