Losing it all

Here you may share how the words Eckhart Tolle have affected your life.
Mushinsan
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Losing it all

Post by Mushinsan » Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:32 pm

You know one thing I never hear anyone mention is ET's time on the streets. When he just lived on a park bench. Radical transformation comes from losing everything you thought you were. If anybody thinks that stage isnt neccessary, then you are trying to add to your self image not free yourself from it. No, it doesnt require forced removal of your belongings, it requires the voluntary disintegration of 'possesions' physical and mental. Most times that only comes with the forced removal bit, but not always. ET suggests ways in slowly letting go of each 'thing', not creating better ones.

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Re: Losing it all

Post by domokato » Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:43 pm

Actually, he suggests losing your attachment to things, not necessarily the things themselves. It is up to the individual to decide whether or not losing the things themselves is what he/she wants to do. Enlightenment is possible either way.
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Re: Losing it all

Post by Sighclone » Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:53 pm

Mushi -

I'm very aware of his time integrating his overnight shift, and talk about it often. When it happened, he didn't know Advaita from hot mustard. I'm exaggerating, of course, but what you mention is important. I had a much less dramatic encounter with unity consciousness, but still stumbled around in life for a couple of months. There is an experience of disorientation which many speak of. The Zen phrase about mountains not being mountains for a while is apt. Fortunately for me, I had some time without large work demands (which has now changed!) The Zen and Dzogchen folks and the traditional Advaitists all warn about time to reach full self-realization, which includes time detaching from possessions and beliefs - Adya took 15 years.

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

Mushinsan
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Re: Losing it all

Post by Mushinsan » Fri Jan 09, 2009 7:32 pm

domokato wrote:Actually, he suggests losing your attachment to things, not necessarily the things themselves. It is up to the individual to decide whether or not losing the things themselves is what he/she wants to do. Enlightenment is possible either way.

Yes, he does suggest that, but who does it?? I mean think it through, you can give up your life (story) or have it taken from you, thats all you can decide. But it will go, when you run out of time deciding whether you want to.

Enlightenment in potential, is just more waiting. What are you waiting for? Something to lose, lol.

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Re: Losing it all

Post by Mushinsan » Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:02 pm

Sighclone wrote: I had a much less dramatic encounter with unity consciousness, but still stumbled around in life for a couple of months. There is an experience of disorientation which many speak of.
Hi Sigh-
Let me ask you, after this experience what brought equilibrium back?

Sighclone wrote: The Zen and Dzogchen folks and the traditional Advaitists all warn about time to reach full self-realization, which includes time detaching from possessions and beliefs - Adya took 15 years.
Time is a concept invented by man, like distance, it has no inherent reality. If there is "only this moment" then there is both "all the time in the world" and "no time at all". Zen also speaks of finding enlightenment should be as if your hair is on fire. Or another one, as if you swallowed a red hot iron ball. At that moment, what really matters?

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Re: Losing it all

Post by ubuntu » Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:30 am

domokato wrote:Actually, he suggests losing your attachment to things, not necessarily the things themselves. It is up to the individual to decide whether or not losing the things themselves is what he/she wants to do.
Which one is deciding, the Self or the ego? because the Self doesn't lose.
There is only one thing I am certain of, I exist and I exist NOW.

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Re: Losing it all

Post by +Jim+ » Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:07 am

Sighclone wrote:Mushi -
I'm very aware of his time integrating his overnight shift, and talk about it often. When it happened, he didn't know Advaita from hot mustard. I'm exaggerating, of course, but what you mention is important. I had a much less dramatic encounter with unity consciousness, but still stumbled around in life for a couple of months. There is an experience of disorientation which many speak of. The Zen phrase about mountains not being mountains for a while is apt. Fortunately for me, I had some time without large work demands (which has now changed!) The Zen and Dzogchen folks and the traditional Advaitists all warn about time to reach full self-realization, which includes time detaching from possessions and beliefs - Adya took 15 years.
Namaste, Andy
There is a world of difference between a mystical experience and awakening...... most people, as you have found yourself, return to a world dominated by thoughts and ideas. Then the cycle of endless searching, book reading and discourse listening begins (or continues).
Last edited by +Jim+ on Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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It's like attempting to nourish yourself on the memory of yesterday's lunch!


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Re: Losing it all

Post by Sighclone » Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:29 am

Mushisan -

It was not so much a return to equilibrium as it was re-experiencing all of my life from a new perspective, and, also, challenging my new identity with my old shit, if you will. What was most interesting is that all of the old autopilot egoic, painbody behaviors suddenly became something I witnessed rather than "did." And after a few times, most of them went away. But I let them die with a whimper, not a thump from judgment.

Time. Of course it is a construct. But the absolutism of pure brahman bliss, delivered as a fiat pronouncement does disservice to most people who are learning nonduality. It's ok to acknowledge clock time. Everyone knows what that is. Expecting to wake up quickly (and thereby understand in a flash that time is a fiction) is not realistic for the vast majority of people. It did not happen to me, for sure, despite an initial kensho. What I write here is an effort to speak to the 10-15 people who read every post without comment.

Dennis Waite's two most recent books "Back to the Truth" and "Enlightenment - the Path Through the Jungle" both discuss his dissatisfaction with neo-advaitism. ( http://advaita.org.uk/ ) His objection is not the truth of their fundamental message at all (it is: "Call off the search, You are already the Self, no need to seek for It."). His objection is that saying "I am That" doesn't help people who are beginning to understand and experience atman, and are approaching self-realization from the distant desert of deeply unconscious suffering. Baby steps are what Eckhart is all about. I try to be an authentic echo voice, but am not ever more than that, and often less.

Tim Conway ( http://www.enlightened-spirituality.org ... vaita.html ) has a good website addressing teaching techniques also.

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Losing it all

Post by Webwanderer » Sun Jan 11, 2009 4:44 pm

Life in form is a bit like muddy water. Water refers to our true nature, while the "muddy" is the concepts, beliefs, attachments of conditioning - the stuff of ego/mind identity.

Awakening is the recognition of the natural clarity of pure water as our true being, over the muddy myopia of ego/mind perception. Making this distinction may not immediately clear away the mud, but it's a beginning in that it shifts one's perspective to one's fundamental essence. Continued experience in stillness allows the mud, stirred up by mental/emotional agitation of judgment and fear, to settle out - there by regaining the natural clarity that is our origin. This clearing may take awhile, and habitual patterns that stir up the mud may continue to draw us back in; but the Truth of recognition is not easily forgotten, as the natural thirst for clarity is strong. Most seek a return.

From the point of that shift in perspective, the search for answers subsides, and the search for clarity takes presidence.

Realization can also be a sudden light in a dark space. It can be disorienting at first, but once one's eyes adjust to the increased light, one becomes more confortable with the enhanced clarity. It is seen that the things we previously bumped into that caused us pain are not so wrong, but just part of the landscape that before was difficult to see. Over all appreciation of what is seen becomes more prevalent.

WW

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Re: Losing it all

Post by Mushinsan » Sun Jan 11, 2009 8:00 pm

I beg anyone's pardon if I am a bit abrasive(?) but the unmastered mind is the biggest problem most people have. I understand what you are saying and applaud you for your efforts.
Sighclone wrote:
What I write here is an effort to speak to the 10-15 people who read every post without comment.
You direct them to the edge, and I'll push them off, lol. But think about it. They should understand that the point is to quit trying to understand? To quit trying to "get it" and just "get with it". I read a quote somewhere, "Life isn't a problem to be solved, but a reality to be experienced." Who cant see the truth in that, and what explanations will help. It's only when all form drops away does our true nature emerge. Yes, we can peek at it, but who's doing the peeking. Why not just trust in the force that brought you into this world and see whats in store. I guarantee there isnt one person out there who could have ever guessed what "their life" was going to entail, so why start worrying about it now.

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Re: Losing it all

Post by randomguy » Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:09 am

Baby steps are what Eckhart is all about
Seems so to me too.
Do the yellow-rose petals
tremble and fall
at the rapid's roar?
- Basho

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Re: Losing it all

Post by Sighclone » Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:34 am

Mushi -

I have no objection to your style, or basic message. One man's meat is another's poison. Your style is different from mine. Vive la difference. You are saying things which will resonate with some, and indeed resonate with me personally. But I spend 1-3 hours per day researching nonduality from a generally academic/historical perspetive. I like the little ripples in the samsara world of advaita. Maharshi and you like the "direct path."

I hope, in my plodding wordy way to throw out a gem or two as meaningful pointers.

You say:
unmastered mind is the biggest problem most people have.

I do know what you mean, after 35 years of TM, sort of "trying" to master the mind. But true mastery of the mind is achieved by yielding, letting it be its busy self, full of "sound and fury, signifying nothing" (nothing when it comes to self-realization.) To me, "mastering" implies tight-fisted control.

Mushi, it's all words...do not shrink from strong assertions. I or others may wince, but there is room here for all interested civil people. :) We do not all have to agree on everything!!

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Losing it all

Post by Mushinsan » Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:15 pm

Yes, but the words point to the truth. Have you ever seen the 10 Bulls of zen? That is what I mean by mastering the mind. If you dont put thoughts in your head, why are they there? If there is something that needs doing it will not come as thought. It will be spontaneous action. In a head full of sound and fury, who can hear the subtle call to return home. I agree that you cannot "do" it, master the mind, but it can be done by watching it and seeing the illusary nature of it, then the dark clouds of the mind evaporate and nothing but the shining light of love is left. I have very few thoughts anymore, and if they come, I laugh at the rantings of a madman who knows nothing but this or that. When you dont become the thought then you are the master.

Thank you Andy, I appreciate and applaud everything you say. There is no right way, I will be the first to admit. Please dont think I have anything against your style. It's perfect. Mine is rather clumsy and brutish, but thats what worked on me. Everytime I tried to believe something my teacher would destroy that illusion. Eventually there was nothing left, but presence. Just awareness, no judgement, no thought, just watching and before I knew it, here I am. But, to be honest, in the end I didnt understand more, hell I didnt understand anything. It was just that peace that passes all understanding.

Be well my friend

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Re: Losing it all

Post by Sighclone » Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:01 pm

Yes - the ten bull woodcuts - :) I like the cicadas at the beginning and the end of the search. We each discover our own bull, and he requires 'taming' in a unique way. Mine is calm now, we are walking home. I hear the cicadas. I can see the village. The mountains are becoming mountains again.

Thank you for joining the forum... :)

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Losing it all

Post by Juno » Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:36 pm

That's perfectly said Andy :D
by thinking of something you create an entity and by thinking of nothing you create another. Let such erroneous thinking perish utterly, and then nothing will remain for you to go seeking!
Huang Po

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