I feel ripped-off, and I'm mad at Eckhar Tolle

Here you may share how the words Eckhart Tolle have affected your life.
Lowrey
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Re: I feel ripped-off, and I'm mad at Eckhar Tolle

Post by Lowrey » Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:35 pm

Midnight wrote:
Lowrey wrote:Long story short.

I have a traumatic, unstable childhood. FF 20 years. I read "Power of Now", I've found it amazing, started to use some of his teachings to achieve my goals in life (it was never "enlightenment"). For a year, I've felt very good, focused, and started to actually realize my dreams. FF 1 year. I had a panic attack, and my life changed in that moment.

I was coming back from the hospital (they told me I'm 100% healthy, it was probably a panic attack), and I've felt a different person. In a wrong way. Actually, I was feeling like a "nobody". It felt like amnesia. I felt like not remembering who I am. Not literally, but "emotionally". I couldn't find myself. I started to "automatically" look at my life from a negative perspective. I wasn't feeling passion about anything I used to, I started to think about death constantly, and how life is short and meaningless.

Every little thing freaked me out into a panic attack.

The feeling is something like Tolle described, but the peace and bliss he talks about wasn't there, only extreme fear, anxiety, panic and fear of death.

It was a year ago, I'm a lot better now, I can sleep, function, do a lot of things. But if I think about I may did it to myself under the influence of Tolle, I really want to knock his face.

What's the experts take on this?
So you are aware of this feeling - feeling like a different person?
Your also aware of how your not feeling the same passions etc.

My first question to you is - who is the one who all of these percieved 'issues' are actually impacting?

Stay with this question, don't think about it, just sit with it and ponder, look inwardly and see if you can find if this 'person' exists. Don't let the mind swap out this question for an easier one, because the mind gets nervous when it can sense a potent question that could potentially reveal it as illusion. This is real inquiry, I don't know whether you are familiar with it or not.

The second question (once you've seen the answer to the first) is - who is making this discovery? If you have really looked, you'l find that there isn't actually a 'person' as such who these issues are touching; there's actually noone home. There may be THOUGHTS about a certain person, but these come and go, always shifting and changing.

So - who has discovered that this person isn't real? What is it that has seen that there's noone tangible who is having these problems. Is it the person? Can that be possible? What is the nature of the one who's 'seeing' that the person is only a thought?

Inquire. Stick with it though, nothing else will do.
thank you.

like I've said, I have no intetion to become "enlightened". I believe in my own soul, and not believing in being a "universal consciousness". I have a past. YOU did not lived my past, I did. Denying that we all have a unique own soul is just crazy to me. I don't see myself as a "mind-made self". Sorry but I think this idea is an inner suicide (which Tolle admits when he says he's already died). Tolle says that life goals like being a movie star, or a great football player, or having a lot of money are mind-made illusions and concepts. I think trying to reach "enlightenment" is even a bigger illusion, and an even more worthless concept. I don't care about it.

I care about finding freedom and living my life.

Lowrey
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Re: I feel ripped-off, and I'm mad at Eckhar Tolle

Post by Lowrey » Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:39 pm

I just can't accept any idea that denies my uniquness. I am unique. Everyone is unique, trying to solve your problems by saying there is no problems is just giving up. I don't want to give up.

Saying that "we're all the same" is just stupid imo. We're not. Of course, we're all human and we'll all die. But saying that doesn't matter how you live this life is just a depressing and loser way of looking at life.

Lowrey
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Re: I feel ripped-off, and I'm mad at Eckhar Tolle

Post by Lowrey » Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:44 pm

anyway, the whole experience happened to me is

1. proves part of what Tolle wrote and I always thought

it prooved that YOU are deep there, and you're not a thought or a feeling.

2. disproves what Tolle says.

disproved that me, as a unique soul doesn't exist. I been through such a great, overwhelming, basic changes inside, I was in extreme fear, anxiety, crazy, irrational, scary thoughts, automatic thoughts questioned myself and ideas CONSTANTLY, yet I came out the other side, loving the same things, going after the same goals, etc..

if me as a unique soul wouldn't exist, I'd be a completely different person now.

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Midnight
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Re: I feel ripped-off, and I'm mad at Eckhar Tolle

Post by Midnight » Fri Jun 10, 2011 4:02 pm

Ok, what your saying is basically full of contradictions - you do realize that don't you?

You don't have to 'believe' anything. Thats a common misconception about Tolles teachings. You have to see that beliefs aren't actually solid, real themselves.

If you want to find freedom as you say, REAL freedom, then you have to actually inquire as to what you are and find out. You can't find freedom AS the ego, it has to be freedom FROM the ego.

Enlightenment is not an illusion, that's just another belief which you have that your projecting, if you believe that idea you believe it into existence (as Mooji says) so, that's your own issue really. Why are you on this forum at all if by your own admission your not interested in any of this?

Tolle doesn't say those things are illusions and concepts - again your doing what most readers do, your just filtering what's being said into your own ideas, beliefs and opinions. There's nothing wrong with going after these things, it's only when self-seeking takes place that they become problematic. You can still do anything you want, but you won't seek completion in it and so your not attached to it, now THAT'S freedom ;).

I don't mean to be rude, but sometimes it's tiresome to see people completely misconstrue what Eckhart is trying to convey, getting stuck in ideas about an 'enlightened state' or something when it's just not true.

snowheight
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Re: I feel ripped-off, and I'm mad at Eckhar Tolle

Post by snowheight » Fri Jun 10, 2011 4:50 pm

Lowrey wrote:I just can't accept any idea that denies my uniquness. I am unique. Everyone is unique, trying to solve your problems by saying there is no problems is just giving up. I don't want to give up.

Saying that "we're all the same" is just stupid imo. We're not. Of course, we're all human and we'll all die. But saying that doesn't matter how you live this life is just a depressing and loser way of looking at life.
Lowery,

Every human perspective is unique ... to the point where it could be said that we are isolated. How can you share an experience? By talking about it? By writing about it? Some, like the taste of honey, are easy to share, but even these can't be replicated down to the last atom. There is always the time of day, the specific emotional state (are you sleepy? are you excited? are you hungry? are you lonely?) at the time it occurred. There is the shape of the spoon and the size of the dollop to consider.

But are we really isolated? Remember what Tom Campell said in his lecture. Science and even common-sense show us how fundamental at root the common space in which our lives unfold connects us, despite our apparent singularity. Tolle defines "enlightenment" as a "felt sense of oneness with Being".

Have you experienced this felt sense of Oneness Lowery?

In thinking about this, in conceptualizing, we are left with a contradiction: we are unique perspectives which share what we have perspective on, to the point where if we try hard enough, we can see past our isolation and feel what we share with everyone -- but in doing that we apparently do so alone.

This is the paradox of existence -- lots of people have written about it before. No mystery that confronting such a beast leads to conflict, inner and outer.

Tolle does not ask you to surrender your unique perspective, but he does challenge you to radically alter it. On it's face, this idea that you are not your thoughts ... it is pretty outrageous when you come right down to it. Outrageous, but can you feel it to be true on some level?
Stop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.

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Ananda
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Re: I feel ripped-off, and I'm mad at Eckhar Tolle

Post by Ananda » Sat Jun 11, 2011 8:26 pm

Hello Lowrey,

I read "Power of Now", I've found it amazing, started to use some of his teachings to achieve my goals in life (it was never "enlightenment")

:lol:

Eckhart doesn't teach you how to achieve goals in life. He teaches enlightenment.

Eckhart teaches a modern interpretation of non-dualism, which says that one's own Self, one's inner being, is identical to the absolute existence which is the root and source of everything in the universe. Tolle isn't presenting you with a nice set of ideas that you can pick and choose from, some to have and others to reject, no, he's giving a series of pointers to a fundamtental reality that goes beyond all beliefs and ideas, and all limited, selfish contrivances.
I have no intetion to become "enlightened". I believe in my own soul, and not believing in being a "universal consciousness". I have a past. YOU did not lived my past, I did. Denying that we all have a unique own soul is just crazy to me. I don't see myself as a "mind-made self". Sorry but I think this idea is an inner suicide (which Tolle admits when he says he's already died). Tolle says that life goals like being a movie star, or a great football player, or having a lot of money are mind-made illusions and concepts. I think trying to reach "enlightenment" is even a bigger illusion, and an even more worthless concept. I don't care about it.
You are mad at Eckhart Tolle, and think you might have got into scrapes with yourself under Tolle's influence, but you haven't really understood Eckhart Tolle, you've selectively picked up some of his teachings in order to get ahead in your life. That's fine if it works for you, but it has nothing to do with Tolle if it doesn't. You have no intention of becoming enlightened, and you deny the possiblity of a universal consciousness- so Eckhart's message is of no use for you at the moment. That's fine, but what do your personal problems have to do with Tolle, or his message, then? You have some problems, but you also don't want to explore Eckhart's message, so what exactly is your purpose posting here? Would you not benefit, perhaps, from a psychology forum, or seeing a therapist, if you haven't already, to resolve your current problems?

We can help here, offer tips and whatnot, and comfort, but what use can we really be if you reject outright the premise and basis for Eckhart's teaching, and thus this forum's existence? We can only be of limited help to you, at the moment.
I'm fine in this world and I don't care about "enlightenment".
So there is no problem here, then.

Welcome to the forum, please have a good look around to get a thorough grasp of Tolle's teachings.



:)

the key master
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Re: I feel ripped-off, and I'm mad at Eckhar Tolle

Post by the key master » Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:03 am

Eggzactgamente!! Get enlightened first---then comes the life improvement project :lol:

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RCharles
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Re: I feel ripped-off, and I'm mad at Eckhar Tolle

Post by RCharles » Sun Jun 12, 2011 3:20 am

Lowrey,

That's wonderful that practicing Tolle is helping you detox those old emotions. That was also how it worked for me. Over several years, stuff would come up, and I would have to look at it and deal with it. Still does, in fact. It has been a very positive process.

About losing your personality, in my experience, it doesn't really work that way. Some people feel as though they have lost their personality and enjoyment of life for a time, but that passes. Over the long term, you learn to observe your personality and choose how to express yourself. For example, have you ever watched yourself losing your temper and thought, "Oh, I see I'm losing my temper"? Maybe you couldn't stop yourself, but you could see yourself doing it. As you get better at being present, you can see yourself doing it, and you can choose whether to do it or not. So you don't lose your personality; you gain greater insight into your personality and you are no longer its slave. It brings great freedom.

Take care,
Chuck
"They are all...perfect..." --Ken Watanabe, dying scene in the movie The Last Samurai

karmarider
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Re: I feel ripped-off, and I'm mad at Eckhar Tolle

Post by karmarider » Sun Jun 12, 2011 7:03 am

Lowrey wrote:...
I care about finding freedom and living my life.
Isn't that what awakening is?

I'm not into theoretical beliefs about awakening either. Bores me to tears.

I come at it from the actual experience of suffering. The essential question is, why is it that we can't just be? What is it that holds us from this?

And simply through observance and honesty, delusions surface, can be cut away.

It's not necessary to be a fan of Tolle.

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Ziendus
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Re: I feel ripped-off, and I'm mad at Eckhar Tolle

Post by Ziendus » Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:01 am

> What's the experts take on this?

Its your experience, so your the top-expert.
---ooOoo---

nutrition
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Re: I feel ripped-off, and I'm mad at Eckhar Tolle

Post by nutrition » Sun Jun 12, 2011 4:31 pm

Lowrey,
I can see why you are holding on to your beliefs. 99% of humanity shares those believes and our societies "thrive" on them.
I would like to quote Antony de Mello's book "Awareness" when he says that
We are crazy [as mind driven humanity] to the point, I have come to believe, that if everybody agrees on something, you can be sure it's wrong!
De Mello also quotes Bertrand Russell in saying that "Every great idea starts out as a blasphemy"

I recommend De Mello to you. He has a way of putting things that is very straight forward and also very humorous.

But yes, it is more comfortable to think that we can lose our joy of living if we practice awakening. I am at a point now where I see life as having no purpose. I feel empty and demotivated to do anything or see anybody. But I am staying with it, I am not trying to change it. I am not going back to the ways I had before. I am not going to want to build more suffering into my life.
I am practicing awareness, I am beginning to be aware of what I do.
At work there is a large gossiping community and of course I am part of it. I am observing myself gossip and complain and by doing that I feel less and less like gossiping and complaining. Dont ask me why.
Also, and that is the hardest part, I also find myself not wanting to be in the company of gossipers and complainers...therefore I often find myself alone and I prefer it that way. I would rather be alone than have to participate in a gossiping session. But not always..

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RCharles
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Re: I feel ripped-off, and I'm mad at Eckhar Tolle

Post by RCharles » Sun Jun 12, 2011 7:04 pm

Nutrition, keep it up. You're on the path. The real you is seeing the gossip without attachment (most of the time), and at some point you may also be able to observe without judging the gossipers. You can consciously observe and choose your actions or not act at all. You can be at peace with all that you observe. :D

Chuck
"They are all...perfect..." --Ken Watanabe, dying scene in the movie The Last Samurai

zack
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Re: I feel ripped-off, and I'm mad at Eckhar Tolle

Post by zack » Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:07 pm

I kind of agree with you. I have a similary story, tough childhood, discovered Tolle and felt relaxed and peaceful for the first time in my life. Then, after a year with peace, the panic and dread hit me big time. I suffered terrible and it took me over 1 year with intense CBT (which is the best way to overcome this kind of anxiety problems in my opinion) to function again. I am well now, practicing presence again, and feel blissful, but I know that it just matter of time until the next wave of anxiety comes. But its okey because I now know of it works, I have accepted the process and its no returning back. But if someone had told about this before I started this journey I don’t know if I ever would have gotten myself into this. Many people actually believe that the spiritual path is the end of negative emotions, when the opposite is the true. Its kind of sad that the spiritual community don’t like to talk about this, it causes a lot of unnecessary suffering for people.

Zack

Lowrey
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Re: I feel ripped-off, and I'm mad at Eckhar Tolle

Post by Lowrey » Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:44 pm

RCharles wrote:Lowrey,

That's wonderful that practicing Tolle is helping you detox those old emotions. That was also how it worked for me. Over several years, stuff would come up, and I would have to look at it and deal with it. Still does, in fact. It has been a very positive process.

About losing your personality, in my experience, it doesn't really work that way. Some people feel as though they have lost their personality and enjoyment of life for a time, but that passes. Over the long term, you learn to observe your personality and choose how to express yourself. For example, have you ever watched yourself losing your temper and thought, "Oh, I see I'm losing my temper"? Maybe you couldn't stop yourself, but you could see yourself doing it. As you get better at being present, you can see yourself doing it, and you can choose whether to do it or not. So you don't lose your personality; you gain greater insight into your personality and you are no longer its slave. It brings great freedom.

Take care,
Chuck
thanks for the comment

what I experience now, and especially a few months ago, couldn't be further from wonderful. If practicing power of now led me to this state (which I don't know and actually here to find out), then I'm the biggest idiot on this planet.

what I experienced can be really described as how Tolle describes his state in some ways, like not having a sense of self or feeling like living in a timeless dimension, or experience everything through stillness, but it is the worst experience I ever had to go through.

if it is a progress where all the negative stuff gets released, then I will say it was wonderful looking back.

but now, it's hell.

I'm not here to argue with people who believe they don't exist and all that stuff, I don't care about that. I'm here to read other people's stories to understand more what I'm going through.

anyway, like I've said, I've found the whole spirituality thing and "presence" interesting and great before I got a panic attack.

Lowrey
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Re: I feel ripped-off, and I'm mad at Eckhar Tolle

Post by Lowrey » Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:00 pm

but, to really short-cut this thread, all I basically want is an answer

can practising presence go out of control? I mean, is it possible for someone who never wanted to be "enlightened", just read this book and learned how to distract from and control thoughts get into a TERRIBLE state of panic and dread? can practising presence cause the worst inner experience one ever had? or I should look for the root elsewhere?

can a little bit of thinking about this kind of philosophical stuff and self-observing led someone into this hell?

I think it can't, but I'm not sure, that's why I'm here. anyway, my panic attack didn't happened during "meditation" (if I ever did that).

thanks for the answers.

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