I feel ripped-off, and I'm mad at Eckhar Tolle

Here you may share how the words Eckhart Tolle have affected your life.

Re: I feel ripped-off, and I'm mad at Eckhar Tolle

Postby Lowrey » Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:27 pm

RCharles wrote:Lowrey, first, I'm sorry you're still having the panic attacks, but it does appear that they come and go, so it's good that you get periods of relief and life is not one big panic attack. Second, it is possible for PON to contribute to this condition. As you focus on being present and letting go of ego, your ego may resist being booted off center stage. Basically, like a little child, it throws a temper tantrum, which can be anger, panic, or any number of emotions. Also, as your mind quiets down, emotional issues deeper down in your psyche may tend to surface.

If you need temporary relief, you can just stop practicing presence and spirituality for a while. The symptoms will probably subside. Over the long term, practicing will probably help you overcome the very things you are struggling with, but you may need to take it in small doses and then back off if you feel overwhelmed. If you just can't handle it at all, then that's just the way it is, and maybe PON is not for you. You are absolutely right that no one can tell you for certain that PON will heal and not harm you. Do what you feel is best for your own peace of mind.

I hope you are able to find a measure of inner peace, one way or another.

Chuck


thank you RCharles for posting

"spirituality" and "practising presence" doesn't have ANY effect on my condition. this is why I start to diminish the fear that "after reading Tolle I killed my personality". in my "clear" moments, I know that there is no such thing as "practising presence robs destroys your personality", and that Tolle only helped me. What I FEEL is, sometimes the opposite.

I'm a strong mf so I will go through this, I been through a lot so the chance I give up or become suicidal is about zero.
Last edited by Lowrey on Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I feel ripped-off, and I'm mad at Eckhar Tolle

Postby Lowrey » Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:35 pm

far_eastofwest wrote:Lots of replies, so thats good, hope you are doing ok Lowrey, and not feeling too horrible

Are you lonely perhaps?
When you wake up scared and confused thats, um, scary.
Sometimes its good to try and work out what is scaring you. Its not always that obvious. A person may be say they are scared of heights, but dig a bit deeper and its falling that they are scared of.

You read the books because you want to be strong, confident and successful.... well you are already strong and confident to put an opening post on a forum.... this is quite a nice forum compared to lots, but still takes courage and confidence to do in my opinion.
I read books because I like to. Walden was one I really enjoyed (got it from booksshouldbefree.com on mp3 as it would burnt my retinas out trying to read the small print and the long winded paragraphs, very nice with the lovely man reading it though, perfect for bedtime) and stuff from paulo coelho is nice too.
Anyway, I digress.....
Successful, thats so subjective. Everyone has different idea on success. For me: To be kind to others and myself, able to fix broken things and cook a meal with little money (this is important, if I am earning good money I can put the savings towards home/holiday/children, if i have little income, then me and the kids can still eat well - self sufficiency), yours will no doubt be different.

One thing I do note at times, people will state relatively easily acheivable things as 'success' for other people, but for themselves they have the bar set so much higher. Be aware not to set your bar too high.


I am looking forward to peace, surrender, acceptance, like my 81yo mother says "when I get old". Guess she means 90... nah... she means never. We are a feisty family. She gave me the books..... after spending hours reading them and I go to discuss them with her she tells me "the authors's full of ... " and has a good laugh.
:D


thank you for replying.

1. it's very very hard to describe this feeling to someone who hasn't been there. I don't fear from height, I don't fear from people (I love to meet people), I don't even fear from fighting (while being in this anxiety panic I actually got into a streetfight and even won), I don't have fear from particularly anything, yet I'm in a CONSTANT fear from everything. On an emotional level, I'm feeling like a little fearful scared child, but on a mental level I'm fearless.

2. success, yes, for everybody its different, and I have my own clear solid definition of it. to achieve my life goals (which I stopped doing before my panic). plain and simple.

before my panic, I read another book here are some quotes
With the language skills that our primitive ancestors developed, we humans became rational creatures, gaining the ability to look into the future and dominate the environment. But with this good came a bad that has caused us endless suffering— unlike any other animal, we are conscious of our mortality. This is the source of all our fears. This consciousness of death is nothing more than a thought of the future that awaits us, but this thought is associated with intense pain and separation. It comes with an attendant thought that occasionally haunts us—what good is it to work so hard, defer immediate pleasures, and accumulate money and power, if one day, perhaps tomorrow, we die? Death seems to cancel out all our efforts and make things meaningless. If we were to give ourselves up to these two trains of thought—the pain and the meaninglessness—we would almost be paralyzed into inaction or driven to suicide. But consciously and unconsciously we invented two solutions to this awareness. The most primitive was the creation of the concept of an afterlife that would alleviate our fears and give our actions in the present much meaning. The second solution—the one that has come to dominate our thinking in the present—is to attempt to forget our mortality and bury ourselves in the moment. This means actively repressing any thought of death itself. To aid in this, we distract our minds with routines and banal concerns. Occasionally we are reminded of our fear when someone close to us dies, but generally we have developed the habit of drowning it out with our daily concerns. The problem, however, is that this repression is not really effective. We generally become conscious of our mortality at the age of four or five. At that moment, such a thought had a profound impact on our psyches. We associated it with feelings of separation from loved ones, with any kind of darkness, chaos, or the unknown. And it troubled us deeply. This fear has sat inside of us ever since. It is impossible to completely eradicate or avoid such an immense thought; it sneaks in through another door, seeps into our behavior in ways we cannot even begin to imagine.


I feel like the bold part.
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Re: I feel ripped-off, and I'm mad at Eckhar Tolle

Postby Lowrey » Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:51 pm

I start to realize that during a panic/anxiety, my "spiritual" fears are nothing but another deep fear trying to come in a new form. I fear of not finding myself, yet I know that your soul is just not something you can find because you are it. Damn sounds extremely stupid :D
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Re: I feel ripped-off, and I'm mad at Eckhar Tolle

Postby karmarider » Tue Jun 21, 2011 2:25 pm

A release technique has worked very well for me for letting go of fear. The Sedona Method (the book) is pretty good, and I have a similar, simpler version on my website.
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Re: I feel ripped-off, and I'm mad at Eckhar Tolle

Postby Lowrey » Tue Jun 21, 2011 3:59 pm

karmarider wrote:A release technique has worked very well for me for letting go of fear. The Sedona Method (the book) is pretty good, and I have a similar, simpler version on my website.


really worked?

I'ma check it out I guess it's in your signature.
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Re: I feel ripped-off, and I'm mad at Eckhar Tolle

Postby karmarider » Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:56 am

Yes, really works.

There is no big secret to it. We choose to hold on to emotions. It's a matter of remembering an innate skill: that we can choose to hold on or choose to let go.
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Re: I feel ripped-off, and I'm mad at Eckhar Tolle

Postby Nameste » Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:13 am

I felt that way with TM some 30 years ago. I was really messed up, and TM (while initially helping), messed me up worse. I think it was like plugging in 220V into a 110V light bulb. My drug abused and highly sensitive system was not ready for it, and I got really freaked, to the point where reality was remote, a dream, and I was a dazed robot trying to remember how to function in it. But I quit, then started doing Yoga and many other self help and spiritual techniques. I have for the most part felt decently the majority of my years. And I have grown to understand and sometimes experience these teachings of Eckhart. My advise is to look for those down to Earth practices that can help you release the past and become concious without all that pie in the sky enlightmentment crap.
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Re: I feel ripped-off, and I'm mad at Eckhar Tolle

Postby kiki » Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:24 am

My advise is to look for those down to Earth practices that can help you release the past and become concious without all that pie in the sky enlightmentment crap.


I agree. I spent many years chasing the "pie in the sky enlightenment crap" that the TM movement was shoveling, and got nowhere with it. ET's book The Power of Now got me off that path as it presented enlightenment in a totally down to earth way. The TM a path, on the other hand, seems designed to keep you chasing something and paying through the nose to do that.
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Re: I feel ripped-off, and I'm mad at Eckhar Tolle

Postby RCharles » Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:10 am

For information about what it means to go through a spiritual emergency, two experts in this subject, as I mentioned in another post, are Stan and Christina Grof. They founded a website and organization to help people through this process on their way to awakening. Here's the link: http://www.spiritualemergence.org.au/pages/what_is.html.

Their site also includes these tips on how to care for yourself through a crisis:http://www.spiritualemergence.org.au/pages/self_care.html.

The information they provide is outstanding and helps you feel that you're not so unusual after all and you are not alone in going through this process.

Chuck
"They are all...perfect..." --Ken Watanabe, dying scene in the movie The Last Samurai
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Re: I feel ripped-off, and I'm mad at Eckhar Tolle

Postby Pako Chubi » Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:18 pm

Lowrey wrote:Long story short.

I have a traumatic, unstable childhood. FF 20 years. I read "Power of Now", I've found it amazing, started to use some of his teachings to achieve my goals in life (it was never "enlightenment"). For a year, I've felt very good, focused, and started to actually realize my dreams. FF 1 year. I had a panic attack, and my life changed in that moment.

I was coming back from the hospital (they told me I'm 100% healthy, it was probably a panic attack), and I've felt a different person. In a wrong way. Actually, I was feeling like a "nobody". It felt like amnesia. I felt like not remembering who I am. Not literally, but "emotionally". I couldn't find myself. I started to "automatically" look at my life from a negative perspective. I wasn't feeling passion about anything I used to, I started to think about death constantly, and how life is short and meaningless.

Every little thing freaked me out into a panic attack.

The feeling is something like Tolle described, but the peace and bliss he talks about wasn't there, only extreme fear, anxiety, panic and fear of death.

It was a year ago, I'm a lot better now, I can sleep, function, do a lot of things. But if I think about I may did it to myself under the influence of Tolle, I really want to knock his face.

What's the experts take on this?




You don't need to believe in eckhart's words, he talks about the ilussion of the "me" and all that...and other teachers say that the "I" must be found...look at the paradoxes, they are all pointers, and if they don't work inside you making some change in your understaing and your consciousness, they mean nothing and they are only more of the same mind-stuff (beliefs, concepts and so on) that everyone have been carring for all their lives...
And about your experience, you know when I was awakening or in that process, I developed a heavy anxiety disorder (with nightmares, panic attacs, etc), and it was my best teacher...thanks to that anxiety (wich I know it was inside me for long before I realised it was there) I awakened, and now I can say "yes, I have the power to change everything in my life, I'm no longer a slave of my mind and my conditioning".
You see, you don't need to seek enlightment or a lack of sense of identity, you don't need to accept the idea that we are all one and we don't have souls we are part of the universal spirit...becouse THAT'S NOT TRUE. Neither is true that we have individual souls or that we are unique individuals...that are just belifs or thoughts about a greater reality that cannot be put into words or ideas... that's why the buddha told to every person something different about this things, becouse he was telling what the person needed to hear, not the truth, becouse he knew that the truth about that can never be put into words...

About anxiety...when you are truly present with it, you can't say eckhart did wrong hahah
What anxiety is telling you is: ¡Don't ever be unconsciouss again! like a little monster shouting that hahaha
You will get through all this, you already know presence, it will try to grow and grow, and the ego will try to diminish and diminish it, but at last presence always wins...becouse presence is everything, and the ego is nothing
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Re: I feel ripped-off, and I'm mad at Eckhar Tolle

Postby Mariposa » Fri Jul 15, 2011 10:06 pm

oh boy, I find it so hard to actually read through all the posts lol I read the first post though

I found it so funny that you want to knock his face lol

I can tell you I've had panic attacks way before reading Eckhart Tolle, so I wouldn't blame him or his teaching.

I still have some anxiety, but I after years of not knowing what causes is it, I have started thinking it might be something in my digestive system. Unfortunately, doctors don't seem to know crap about panic attacks, I tell you I want to knock all of their faces! :shock:

I am having a little difficulty breathing right now, and I think something I ate might have caused me some more acid reflux.

This is just an idea, well actually, this was one of my doctor's possible causes. So I recommend to you watching your diet closely, limit sugar intake, anything like coffee, strong tea, I don't know, if you believe this could be a way to go, you can pm me and I will tell you more.

I really wouldn't stop practicing awareness and inner body meditation and such, since I really don't think it can be harmful at all. In my experience though, it hasn't really helped me through an actual panic attack. But I did have many many many of those, and the last one I had I just reminded myself that I can know for A FACT that this is GOING to be over in a matter of minutes, just like every single time it happened. Breathe into a bag, it really helps if you are hyperventilating.

I know I said that thing about doctors, but don't give up, go to a different doctor, if that one doesn't help, find another, if that one doesn't know what it is, go to another, until somebody finds a way to help you. I have been dragging this for years and years, don't do the same :oops: try anything you find until you feel better, and then tell me how it went!

Much much peace to you,

love,

Maris
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Re: I feel ripped-off, and I'm mad at Eckhar Tolle

Postby openvista » Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:12 pm

In 2000, I was getting trained in Reiki, an energy healing technique. My teacher told me I'd notice "some changes" in my life as this universal energy ("Chi") that underlies it settled in. Okay. WELL... what she didn't tell me was that within a few months I would be flat on my back in the most intense pain of my life. This was WAY beyond a "panic attack". Yes it had the shortness of breath, the recurring thoughts of terror and dread and all that. But on top of that, my brain felt like it was hooked up to some high-powered electrical lines and it was going to melt. It was excruciating pain and the episodes could last for hours. I was SO angry at her for the longest time for not preparing me for it. And I dropped the Reiki practice, all things "spiritual" and ran for the hills, believing myself to be possessed by demons (which is what my mother told me as a child).

In retrospect, what I believe happened was, just like with you, for a time I felt better and better because I kept opening up more and more to happiness and joy, but eventually I reached a limit for my body/mind at that time. I ran into a huge, hidden castle of fear inside that I had used for my entire life to protect me. I, too, had a terrible childhood filled with sexual abuse, emotional abuse, spiritual abuse, you name it. To me, I didn't notice that I lived my whole life from a place of contraction: tensed up, protecting myself at all times.

So what, in fact, is happening to you, it seems based on my experience and the countless stories I've heard from others down through the years, is that all the fear, anger, anxiety and so forth that have been with you all your life are now coming to the surface for RELEASE! YAY!!!

Nobody can tell you how long it takes *for you* to get to the other side of all that. For me, I had about 6 months of the kind of hell I wouldn't wish on any of my abusers. And since then periodically and progressively less often, I have had, let's call them "invitations to dance". What I mean is this phenomenon arises in my body and I discovered that the more I believed in what the thoughts were saying during the "outbreak", the worse the experience got. BUT, if I process the phenomenon in real time as SENSATIONS on a pure physical level without labeling them or fearing them, they go away in pretty short order and it isn't painful at all.

I have had a complete transformation in my life in the ensuing 11 years. You cannot even imagine the contrast. Eckhart Tolle's teachings were a part of that. And I do not feel "blotted out" or like I've become a drone. In fact, I have never felt more alive and excited about everything, whether it's "good" or "bad". Look at it this way: if you walk outside and look at nature: is everything the same or is there diversity? Well, whatever brought that into being, brought you into being and it could have a bunch of clones if it wanted, given the amount of intelligence nature seems to possess. If you don't believe in a creative force of any kind, then just observe observe that the people on this forum who have gone pretty deeply into this aren't clones of each other. They are vibrant human beings with unique personalities, gifts and so forth. This light that everyone talks about is wanting to shine through and bring you into MORE of who you are. First, it's cleaning some windows caked with gunk. Then it will shine through your beautiful stained glass pattern.
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Re: I feel ripped-off, and I'm mad at Eckhar Tolle

Postby ashley72 » Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:50 pm

Mariposa,

I used to get panic attacks and was completely puzzled and confused by what was causing them. Eventually I learnt how to watch my thoughts non-judgmentally and the panic attacks stopped. I would still have worrisome thoughts or fear stories like... "I am having a little difficulty breathing right now, and I think something I ate might have caused me some more acid reflux."

But because I was no longer giving the fearful thought my alert attention those little fear stories just disappeared from view. It seems my alert attention was now too busy with everything in the present moment to stop and give all its focus to one little fear thought that occasionally arose. I then started to realise that thoughts come & go and you can choose which thoughts to follow... Like a dog who follows a scent. I did notice sometimes the thoughts had a lot of power and seem to reappear often at the most inconvenient times. But by keeping my alert attention in the present moment was key to not getting dragged along by their strong pull. At times if the pull was extreme, I needed to really move my alert attention to my inner body and many different things in the now and just keeping doing that, never looking back to that fear thought and inviting it back to view. Realizing it's going to float by, because it's got no power if it doesnt have my alert attention. You see where attention goes energy flows. If my attention doesn't go to a fear story it doesn't get the energy required to keep it in view. As Mooji says, don't extent its permit or visa and it's officially not allowed to stick around. :D

Next time a fear story pops in your head, keep your alert attention in the present moment and inner body, try and get yourself interested in other things around you, keep reminding yourself the importance of staying alert and present now. If the fear thought reapperars, that's a signal your alert presence is not sufficient so keep looking at different things really extend your attention in all directions as much as possible don't linger on anything, keep your alert attention freely moving around not getting fixated on anything in particular occasionally move back to your inner body to keep some attention there as well. Ultimately you want to expand alert attention to everything in the now as much as possible, because the now is so dynamic and changing you will find the alert attention just keeps flowing with the natural flow of change. Good luck
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Re: I feel ripped-off, and I'm mad at Eckhar Tolle

Postby Lowrey » Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:14 pm

first of all, THANKS FOR EVERYBODY replying and trying to help. really.

another thing, like I've said, I'm not interested in anything like becoming "enlightened" or developing some superhuman-skills (if that's what you think enlightenment is). the only "enlightenment" I want is which lets me release my old negative pain. I'm not interested in "losing ego" or anything stupidness (sorry) like that.

I have to admit that I'm "chronically confused" right now. I'm alright, anyway, not having panic attacks or anything, but the only reason for this is my confidence and that I learned how to deal with it. But I still just "deal with it", still not solved the problem. I was just like, fuck it, I won't panic I'm a man, and once I faced a panic attack it never happened again.

if enlightenment is peace, joy, being controlled (not thinking about frightening things you don't even believe), "connectedness", than I'm in endarkenment right now.

anyway, seriously, I was an really idiot when I thought that "practising presence" or reading Tolle had ANYTHING to do with the way I been feeling. It was really a thought that came out of my terrible feelings, and didn't came out me. I can still practise presence and the way I feel doesn't get worse. If you read something you don't think is true, you say "oh that's stupid, but the other parts are interesting", and don't start to panic upon what a guy you don't even know said. And I had no problem with ET before my panic attack.
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Re: I feel ripped-off, and I'm mad at Eckhar Tolle

Postby Lowrey » Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:26 pm

openvista wrote:So what, in fact, is happening to you, it seems based on my experience and the countless stories I've heard from others down through the years, is that all the fear, anger, anxiety and so forth that have been with you all your life are now coming to the surface for RELEASE! YAY!!!


WWWWWOOW. What can I say. I know now, this idea was always on my mind, and in the last weeks I'm really sure that this is what happening. It's not just making total sense, but upon all, it's what I really want. It was my goal all the time. Basically it was part of the reason I read Tolle. I always knew that I have a big emotional baggage on my chest. Nothing suprising, I watched my father and stepfather fighting, I watched my stepfather beating my mother and I watched my brother die. All before age 8.
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