A few uneventful moments

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Webwanderer
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Re: A few uneventful moments

Post by Webwanderer » Sat Jul 30, 2011 4:05 pm

snowheight wrote:Afterlife? ... who knows. Who really knows? Do you have any control over this? What difference could it possibly make?
Who knows if there is an afterlife? Who really knows? Maybe someone who has been there? Of course they may be imagining it, but you won't convince those who have had the experience of such. Their experiences are life altering, and unlike a dream the memories of their experience lasts their entire lives. 20, 30 years later it remains as vivid as the day it happened. Many have complete healings from terminal conditions and illnesses, recoveries that are inexplicable to the physicians who attended them. Compelling stuff for one interested in the nature of being.

One could apply the same dismissal to non-duality. Who knows if there is anything to the suggestions of kiki and Ananda and Tolle and Adya and Mooji, etc. They have no proof of anything. They just speak from some personal experience; but it could be that they are just imagining this ego structure thing isn't real and that that which thinks it sees a mental structure is just a different aspect of it. It's not my take, but who really knows?

An afterlife? Maybe there is no such thing and there is just life. This human experience may be just one unique expression within life as a whole. So those that have NDE's are not experiencing an afterlife so much as their origins, returning to their natural home after a purposeful adventure. Certainly they experience it as such. And while we are considering who knows what, who knows what experience is closer to truth, and what perspective is more in line with our essential being - or if there even is an essential beingness?

And
What difference could it possibly make?
A good question if asked with genuine interest, and one well worth exploring. The thing is one can't really answer that question without at least accepting the possibility that some conscious reality exists beyond this human experience. If it is simply rejected out of hand, and one adopts the belief that one can't actually know anything about it, then that doorway of investigation and exploration is closed. It seems wiser to let doors stay open and let the light leak in where it may.

An honest investigation will go a long way to lay the matter to rest - either conscious life survives and transcends the death of the body or it doesn't. If it does, what does it mean to the human experience? What does the evidence indicate? Where does it lead? How is it useful to my daily life?

Personally, I've found it revolutionary. It offers a context that makes sense out of a world of pain and suffering. Does it negate the teachings of Tolle and Adya and others? Not in the least. It 'merely' adds greater context to non-duality teachings and the deeper nature of the human experience.

How many have come here having adopted the perspective of non-duality only to find themselves isolated, empty and in a new kind of suffering? Far too many. The context added by an understanding offered through near death studies, fills that emptiness with a genuine sense of love and purpose. It's life altering.

We are all engaged in a search for truth, and while it's difficult to honestly say we 'know' any particular truth, we all build life perspectives as best we can through what feels true based on information and insight - non-duality included. So (respectfully), to restrictively state 'who really knows', seems more likely to be an ego response in favor of an existing perspective endangered by new information.

WW

ps: One of the most consistent experiences of the NDE is the 'life review'. Here is a link to an assemblage of its value both 'there' and here for those open to it and interested in making the most of their human experience. Enjoy.

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research24.html

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Re: A few uneventful moments

Post by snowheight » Sat Jul 30, 2011 5:34 pm

Webwanderer wrote:Who knows if there is an afterlife? Who really knows? Maybe someone who has been there?
The collection of reports is powerful empirical evidence, and if a scientist were to apply their method, they would find that there are even a few theories about what is going on (some of them quantitatively based) to which they might match this data.

This being said, when these experiences beyond words (such as Natalie's, at the start of the thread) are "had", so to speak, both belief in, or disbelief of, the continuance of the perspective after physical death are of a disposition that is difficult for words to describe, but certainly vastly attenuated as a point worthy of consideration -- and one need not die in order to see the impact of one's life on the rest of the world and thereby grasp a prerogative for not spending it adrift.

The question of relevance and the point about lack of control were mind-to-mind. My perspective to Natalie's. This was not intended as any sort of rebuke or indictment of NDE specifically. Note that in voiding the importance of all belief the dis-belief in an afterlife is also dropped. Obviously, there is some absurd underlying belief implicitly expressed here (a belief about belief) but this is unavoidable in any expression of mind. I'm sure this can be seen or felt or discerned even as it can't ever really be understood.

I recognized the expression of a common experience related by Natalie. Having "been there", I offer another way to deal with this question of afterlife, one that is quite time-honored actually, in several different traditions albeit from different angles. One that just might go the way of the theory of the ether eventually, but eventually is not here yet.

Is that all there is? Who wants to know?
Stop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.

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Re: A few uneventful moments

Post by smiileyjen101 » Tue Aug 02, 2011 6:32 am

Hi Natalie, I want to ask your forgiveness (as in don't be angry with me if this ‘irks’ you, it just might) in advance.

I'd like to bring you under a maybe different street corner light to stand under, if you want to (not wanting to drag you down the street or anything ; 0) but it may be a little like Enigma keeping at me in the 'free will' thread until I 'got it'.

My first pre-hint is take a moment and re-read your signature tag line. It’s one of my irkiest-favourites . That is, it irks ‘ego’, and ‘soul’ loves it when it does. Not sure which one of them it is that usually wants to stick its tongue out at it when I notice the truth of it in action. :wink:

For me, much of what followed in your OP was directly related to the content of the very first line.
I was lying next to my 8 year old, on her bed, hoping she would fall asleep fast so I could check this forum and facebook before I went to bed.
If I may Natalie, re-reading this one sentence, do you notice anything? Where was your ‘state’, your ‘awareness’, your ‘being’?

Looking at this from outside of yourself, as if ‘you’ were somewhere in the stars, but could also be acutely aware of every thing in that scene in the room that you were really in; at the time that you were really in. Take a moment from this point of view, (there’s more on this in the discussion on vertical and horizontal stuff in the latter pages of Key Master’s ‘Nothing Changes’ thread).

What do notice about the scene, the moment, the connections, the opportunities to be?

And then notice the workings of the mind.
I started to observe my thoughts as they appeared and disappeared, especially the ones appearing as vivid images for a few seconds before dissolving.
Were these thoughts about what was real and sensory in the moment – were they ‘noticing’ the breathing of your child, your own breathing/heartbeat, the warmth of the bed, sounds around you, the love between you, smells filtering in your nostrils – was it a sensory experience or mind created projections to some other place/s or time/s?
Then I became aware that I was observing my thoughts and ‘something’ asked: “who is aware that you are aware? It didn’t feel as if it was my mind asking this question, it felt kind of mystical, as if something other than me was speaking silent words inside my head. I started to go deeper to see who was aware that I was aware and suddenly felt pulled into this black void, there was no thinking, no wanting, or not wanting, even the thought “who is aware that you are aware” disappeared. I was ‘floating’ there for some moments, immersed in that black and soundless space. It was serene and peaceful, but it wasn’t a blissful or awesome experience. Just a little above average nice.
^This was an honest and open description of a ‘noticing’. What it was is only for you to ‘notice’ what it says to you. This question is one that is bandied around and always seems to be answered as no you or nothing. For me, that answer is a far cry from awareness of oneness. But (possibly) this answer was materialised into ‘experience’.

I’ve mentioned in the various nde threads that for me, ‘what happens’ in an experience is less important than the changes the happening brings. The ways a oneness experience changes you in a way that you cannot go back to any semblance of how you were before it.
Then I guess my mind kicked in. I felt bored and impatient. These feelings immediately brought me back from the vast, black, soundless space I was in. Once back I felt disappointment and fear. I thought: Is this all there is? Is this how it will feel like after I die? Is this what being pure consciousness feels like? As the fear grew, I kind of preferred religion’s version of an afterlife to the experience I had just had. I understand where this fear comes from and now I am back where I was before this happened. No fear, no expectations, no nothing. I am back at feeling pretty ‘flat’ at times, content most times, and mildly euphoric some other times. I am back at feeling ‘blessed’ for not being a religious person.
What I notice here ^ is a whole heap of grief process type emotions/reactions – denial, bargaining, conditional responses trying to make ‘sense’ of something unexpected and yet, created. You might like to see if it stands the test of making enemy, obstacle, means to an end of a thing – love/awareness does none of these things, it encompasses all and recognises the oneness of everything.
What/who originated the initial ‘who is aware that you are aware’ thought? Was it a thought?
What/who pulled me into the blackness and kept me there for a few uneventful moments?
I would love to hear from you if you have had a similar experience with this void/blackness/space.
Were you initially disappointed that it wasn’t all that is cracked up to be?
Most accounts out of body, astral travelling or nde even though they belie logic never seem to leave any doubt as to the ‘knowing’ of the experiencer, rather than reflective experiencing it seems to be more dynamic awareness.

While I don't think it's really related, I have heard of two accounts one where a man was falling into unconsciousness, dying, and slipping out of his feet into a deep blackness before he was resuscitated. The void he described scared the crap out of him. Another, a very rich man who had an operation where they had to stop his heart etc so was ‘clinically’ dead and he was very disappointed, came back saying there was ‘nothing’. I have to admit, with this second one I could only laugh, not unkindly – but thinking of the notion ‘easier to get a camel through a needle, than a rich man into heaven’ and he was known for throwing his ‘wealth’ around in an abuse of power. But, in both cases two things were common – an immediate sense of them not being where they should have been/wanted to be/knew there to be beyond where they were, and a sense that it had to do with their way of being in life.

Their behaviours/actions after these events or in the second case, non-event, gave them an opportunity and they totally changed the way they operated in the world from those points forward. The first became kinder than he’d been previously, the second became more generous with his resources and less dominating of others.

Nobody else can interpret our experiences for us. Our minds are wondrous things.

Part way through the nde, clair abilities, synchronicities thread I’ve mused about energy and noted some quotes from ET about ‘portals’ that you might find helpful pointers. For me Natalie, (and this is where I need your forgiveness for encroaching maybe) a far more powerful ‘portal’ was right there laying on the bed beside you needing only your pure attention on the manifest love that ‘is’, beyond thought, beyond fear, beyond experience, but absolutely in peaceful, blissful, knowing.

With humble love, jen
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen
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Re: A few uneventful moments

Post by Natalie » Thu Aug 04, 2011 4:20 am

Hello smiley:
I’d like to bring you under a maybe different street corner light to stand under, if you want to (not wanting to drag you down the street or anything ; 0)


hehhehehe :D
My first pre-hint is take a moment and re-read your signature tag line. It’s one of my irkiest-favourites . That is, it irks ‘ego’, and ‘soul’ loves it when it does. Not sure which one of them it is that usually wants to stick its tongue out at it when I notice the truth of it in action.

For me, much of what followed in your OP was directly related to the content of the very first line.
I was lying next to my 8 year old, on her bed, hoping she would fall asleep fast so I could check this forum and facebook before I went to bed.

If I may Natalie, re-reading this one sentence, do you notice anything? Where was your ‘state’, your ‘awareness’, your ‘being’?


It was there because it always is, but I was not aware of it because of the hoping and the anticipation to get to my computer....I get it :)
Looking at this from outside of yourself, as if ‘you’ were somewhere in the stars, but could also be acutely aware of every thing in that scene in the room that you were really in; at the time that you were really in. Take a moment from this point of view, (there’s more on this in the discussion on vertical and horizontal stuff in the latter pages of Key Master’s ‘Nothing Changes’ thread).

What do notice about the scene, the moment, the connections, the opportunities to be? Not much smiley. Impatience comes to mind.

And then notice the workings of the mind.
I started to observe my thoughts as they appeared and disappeared, especially the ones appearing as vivid images for a few seconds before dissolving.

Were these thoughts about what was real and sensory in the moment – were they ‘noticing’ the breathing of your child, your own breathing/heartbeat, the warmth of the bed, sounds around you, the love between you, smells filtering in your nostrils – was it a sensory experience or mind created projections to some other place/s or time/s?
I was not noticing my breath or feeling my inner body. I was not particularly aware of my surroundings such as the position of my daughter’s body, the stuffed animal she was holding, what she was wearing, etc. I started to watch the mouse hole as snowheight calls it. I could ‘see’ thoughts being birthed, I could see them crawl and walk until they disappeared from my mind. After a while, their birth became very very slow. I could see these mini mini thoughts trying to take on life, but they would not be allowed to form fully. Then the birthing factory stopped and that’s when I was pulled into the black void.
Then I became aware that I was observing my thoughts and ‘something’ asked: “who is aware that you are aware? It didn’t feel as if it was my mind asking this question, it felt kind of mystical, as if something other than me was speaking silent words inside my head. I started to go deeper to see who was aware that I was aware and suddenly felt pulled into this black void, there was no thinking, no wanting, or not wanting, even the thought “who is aware that you are aware” disappeared. I was ‘floating’ there for some moments, immersed in that black and soundless space. It was serene and peaceful, but it wasn’t a blissful or awesome experience. Just a little above average nice.

^This was an honest and open description of a ‘noticing’. What it was is only for you to ‘notice’ what it says to you. This question is one that is bandied around and always seems to be answered as no you or nothing. For me, that answer is a far cry from awareness of oneness. But (possibly) this answer was materialised into ‘experience’.
I didn’t particularly feel I was one with anything when I was in the black void. What was felt was total and utter nothingness. Deep black thick nothingness. Absolute lack of desire........no wants or needs of any kind. The only thing that ‘felt’ mystical were the soundless words spoken to me: “Who is aware that you are aware”?
I’ve mentioned in the various nde threads that for me, ‘what happens’ in an experience is less important than the changes the happening brings. The ways a oneness experience changes you in a way that you cannot go back to any semblance of how you were before it
.

I felt curiosity and wanted to see if others had similar experiences. At the time, I wasn’t particularly concerned about how the experience would change me. Not sure I am concerned about it now either. Perhaps this lack of interest is indicative that it was an experience rooted in my ego and nothing else. I am really ok with both possibilities. Don’t seem to have many preferences these days.
Then I guess my mind kicked in. I felt bored and impatient. These feelings immediately brought me back from the vast, black, soundless space I was in. Once back I felt disappointment and fear. I thought: Is this all there is? Is this how it will feel like after I die? Is this what being pure consciousness feels like? As the fear grew, I kind of preferred religion’s version of an afterlife to the experience I had just had. I understand where this fear comes from and now I am back where I was before this happened. No fear, no expectations, no nothing. I am back at feeling pretty ‘flat’ at times, content most times, and mildly euphoric some other times. I am back at feeling ‘blessed’ for not being a religious person.

What I notice here ^ is a whole heap of grief process type emotions/reactions – denial, bargaining, conditional responses trying to make ‘sense’ of something unexpected and yet, created. You might like to see if it stands the test of making enemy, obstacle, means to an end of a thing – love/awareness does none of these things, it encompasses all and recognises the oneness of everything.


It’s hard for me to see how this experience is ‘holding up’ because I just can’t recall it. I mean, I remember it, but I can’t bring it back to analyze it. Concerning my mention about not being religious, I wanted to reply to WW's post of a couple of days ago that he was not trying to convert me or something like that :) , but I haven't had a chance 'til now. I don't think nde's are religious experiences. To me, they are spiritual. Religious people would tell me these experiences come from the devil or somethign like that, at least the religious people I know would.
What/who originated the initial ‘who is aware that you are aware’ thought? Was it a thought?
What/who pulled me into the blackness and kept me there for a few uneventful moments?
I would love to hear from you if you have had a similar experience with this void/blackness/space.
Were you initially disappointed that it wasn’t all that is cracked up to be?

Most accounts out of body, astral travelling or nde even though they belie logic never seem to leave any doubt as to the ‘knowing’ of the experiencer, rather than reflective experiencing it seems to be more dynamic awareness
The doubts and the fear and the disappointment were there the minute my mind took over, not during. I do sense that I reached some kind of 'state' or crossed some threshold, but I've been cautioned about these feelings too. My curiosity got the best of me. I really wanted to see if dissapointment and fear were common after coming out of this black void for the first time. Some of the replies in this thread indicate that my feelings of dissapointment and even fear were shared by others. I can see now how the who/what questions were a need for validation of my experience.
While I don't think it's really related, I have heard of two accounts one where a man was falling into unconsciousness, dying, and slipping out of his feet into a deep blackness before he was resuscitated. The void he described scared the crap out of him. Another, a very rich man who had an operation where they had to stop his heart etc so was ‘clinically’ dead and he was very disappointed, came back saying there was ‘nothing’. I have to admit, with this second one I could only laugh, not unkindly – but thinking of the notion ‘easier to get a camel through a needle, than a rich man into heaven’ and he was known for throwing his ‘wealth’ around in an abuse of power. But, in both cases two things were common – an immediate sense of them not being where they should have been/wanted to be/knew there to be beyond where they were, and a sense that it had to do with their way of being in life.

Their behaviours/actions after these events or in the second case, non-event, gave them an opportunity and they totally changed the way they operated in the world from those points forward. The first became kinder than he’d been previously, the second became more generous with his resources and less dominating of others.
I wonder how soon after their experiences these persons noticed these profound changes. Again, I am not sure this experience has had any significant impact on anything. When I try to think about this, a draw a blank.
Nobody else can interpret our experiences for us. Our minds are wondrous things.

Part way through the nde, clair abilities, synchronicities thread I’ve mused about energy and noted some quotes from ET about ‘portals’ that you might find helpful pointers. For me Natalie, (and this is where I need your forgiveness for encroaching maybe) a far more powerful ‘portal’ was right there laying on the bed beside you needing only your pure attention on the manifest love that ‘is’, beyond thought, beyond fear, beyond experience, but absolutely in peaceful, blissful, knowing.


No encroaching of any kind felt here and I love your suggestion. Oftentimes, I experience bliss when looking into my 8 year old (turns 9 on Sunday)’s huge hazel eyes. I know the feeling of being drawn into an ocean of pure honey when those eyes stare back at me. The possibility of not having those wondrous eyes around me one day is the scariest thing in my ‘world’. Talk about the mother of all attachments. I have had life transforming realizations about my relationships with my older kids, 26 and 28, and ‘know’ that I will be OK if something were to happen to them. More than ok. I know I’ll be totally at peace. The energy that they are is indestructible and will return to its source, whatever this turns out to be. But my attachment to my 8 year old, my god smiley, that’s my Achilles’ heel.

I enjoyed your response inmensely smiley and I am grateful for the time you took to write it.

With love back, natalie

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Re: A few uneventful moments

Post by smiileyjen101 » Thu Aug 04, 2011 5:12 am

(((natalie)))
Oftentimes, I experience bliss when looking into my 8 year old (turns 9 on Sunday)’s huge hazel eyes
^ YUM!! and thank you for sharing that, both the love and the fear.

Maybe let that be the 'measure' of your pointers regarding awareness/consciousness with regard to the bliss. It has an honesty and a resonance about which you have no doubts - you 'know' this love.

The funny thing while we run around trying to find it outside of us, it's there within us all the time, just waiting for us to let it flow. For me it's not really about 'finding it' so much as 'being' it.

I can only tell you it's been 29 years and 15 days since I had the nde and it's still more 'real' than most of my days since.

What your experience has done for you though natalie, and may for others too, is to show you that your mind/thoughts will manifest what it thinks you want, by what you either knowingly or unknowingly put into them, or leave out of them. Your sense of 'and that's okay too' is simply beautiful in resonance.

much love and now I know how poor enigma felt nudging me lol...
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen
http://www.balancinginfluences.com

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Re: A few uneventful moments

Post by runstrails » Thu Aug 04, 2011 2:49 pm

Hi Natalie,
I had a void type experience once too that brought on fear.
I wrote about it here: http://eckhart-tolle-forum.inner-growth ... oid#p58417
I was quite obsessed with it for a while.
But now, looking back--I don't quite know what to make of it. Maybe it was mind releasing some fears? or perhaps it was a real glimpse. There is so much in this universe that we just don't know about.
I think we all have many interesting experiences in our journey. The important point of those experiences is that they allow a recognition that there is so much we don't know and that broadens our horizons and allows surrender to the not-knowing.

Happy birthday to your little one (well not so little now) on Sunday!!!!!! Enjoy the cake and festivities :D.

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Re: A few uneventful moments

Post by Natalie » Wed Aug 17, 2011 6:31 am

"Happy birthday to your little one (well not so little now) on Sunday!!!!!! Enjoy the cake and festivities"

Thanks runstrails. We had a great time. Hope your knee is better and that you able to run again.

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