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Tolle on death and what happens

PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:37 pm
by Peter

Re: Tolle on death and what happens

PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 4:44 pm
by Webwanderer
Peter, thanks for this most excellent link. This should end all speculation on Tolle's take on the "there is no you" mantra. Tolle very clearly states that there is a survival of a sense of self beyond death and that reincarnation is a normal expression of that self. There is much more implied in his response as well. Recommended.

WW

Re: Tolle on death and what happens

PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 1:52 am
by Natalie
He says: “Death is a transition from one form into another form or from one form into formlessness”, and implies that our levels or states of consciousness at death determine which of the two transitions our life forces will go through. He feels that when an unconscious person dies, his/her life force will choose to be reincarnated (didn’t actually use this word) into another being. He also says that he has a sense deep within that there is a realm that we can’t even conceive of from where we are here, where the life forces that transition into formlessness go.
I’ve read here that Eckhart generally tiptoes around the subject of reincarnation, but I think he is pretty clear on this video that he believes in it. I am glad this link was posted.

Re: Tolle on death and what happens

PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 4:47 am
by smiileyjen101
Yes Peter thank you. It was lovely to see his sense of calm and compassion and sharing of his own experience of grief and the ability to sit with the pain, while remembering no real thing has died.

He says: “Death is a transition from one form into another form or from one form into formlessness”, and implies that our levels or states of consciousness at death determine which of the two transitions our life forces will go through. He feels that when an unconscious person dies, his/her life force will choose to be reincarnated (didn’t actually use this word) into another being.


The above may be one understanding of what he has said, but may I suggest another possibility. In M Peck Scott's book In Heaven as on Earth - a vision of the afterlife, there are mentions that may also speak to this but within the realm that is not in Earth form. Peck's central character sits in a dark furniture-less room waiting to be shown the way forward and he meets other characters that have hung onto their sense of themself in form. For example he meets a woman crying alone in a room who is overweight. In her Earth life she came to identify with this form, for a number of reasons and fears, even in death she refused to let go of this sense of separateness to let go of this was something she at that time was not able to do, or rather, chose not to and so in her own mind this was still who she was. Others continued to fight and trade 'nothing' in order to 'be' who they thought themself to be.

When Tolle mentions until such time as they are willing to let that go... for me I have an understanding that the things of the separate personality are ours to choose to identify with or to let go of - with or without an Earth body. the notion of us all being one separating for this life of experiences rings true for me. Many have the awkward moment of realising that they and their worst 'enemy' or those who have harmed many others are one. Some like to separate themself from the whole even without a physical body, until they real-ise who they really are, and that we are all one.

I once pondered deeply on this with a very wise Master on the topic of suicide bombers - what will they find in Heaven, and the response was that they will find exactly what they expect to find - the rewards etc until the realisation begins to dawn on them that their personality and their choices created a reality that is not eternally real. At this time they will either choose to join the light or to remain attached to the false reality that gave them the opportunity to choose love or fear.

In a sense this speaks to 'no choice is wrong, it just brings a different experience.' and that the choice is always ours to make.

Namaste, may peace be with you

Re: Tolle on death and what happens

PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 12:33 pm
by Peter
Within context and without starting a new thread here is a link to Thomas Campbell's first hand experience on what happens ...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQHFD2VFJ1w

Re: Tolle on death and what happens

PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:51 pm
by HermitLoon
HermitLoon's "reality":

There is Awareness - infinite and eternal - the essence of being.

Because of the infinite potential of Awareness, an illusion of separation, hypothetically, could arise and from that create the hypothetical consciousness of an individual human experience, which could then create the consciousness of matter, a body, a universe, etc. - all as a virtual hypothetical.
"Death" is the dissolution of the hypothetical - the end of the "story" - the return home to Reality.

Awareness, alone, is.

Re: Tolle on death and what happens

PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 6:31 pm
by Webwanderer
HermitLoon wrote:"Death" is the dissolution of the hypothetical - the end of the "story" - the return home to Reality.

What then is the nature of this home, of Reality? Awareness is surely fundamental, but what does awareness perceive? Could it have qualities of it's own that gives rise to perception(s) unique to that realm?

WW

Re: Tolle on death and what happens

PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 7:56 pm
by HermitLoon
A description of the indescribable is pretty tough.....
HermitLoon apologizes for - and will cease - his vain attempts.

Re: Tolle on death and what happens

PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 1:22 am
by dasaniwater
One form into another form... reincarnation. One form into formless... it shuts our minds up. Both sound like ideas to me. Like religion, heaven/hell, just thought up and accepted. Of course thats my perspective, no more than another mental position.
"nothing real can be threatened, nothing unreal exists"
"that which is real in us in beyond form"
"survival of sense of self beyond death."
Just more thoughts. He said everything he could say when he quoted the zen master right at the beginning,
"i don't know." of course everyone has an idea but who really knows.

Re: Tolle on death and what happens

PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 1:44 am
by Webwanderer
dasaniwater wrote:of course everyone has an idea but who really knows.

Maybe those many thousands that remember being there. And "there" is a reference to a state of consciousness beyond that experienced in form. OBE's, NDE's and in some cases, even lucid dreamers. There are other possibilities as well - those who directly recall past (physical) lives and those who recall life between lives. It's worth considering, even a little research is recommended for those willing to explore possibilities.

WW

Re: Tolle on death and what happens

PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 3:51 am
by dasaniwater
Webwanderer wrote:
dasaniwater wrote:of course everyone has an idea but who really knows.

Maybe those many thousands that remember being there. And "there" is a reference to a state of consciousness beyond that experienced in form. OBE's, NDE's and in some cases, even lucid dreamers. There are other possibilities as well - those who directly recall past (physical) lives and those who recall life between lives. It's worth considering, even a little research is recommended for those willing to explore possibilities.

WW


I researched a little. I thought this was pretty interesting. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kUyFeSizr0

But i also have to consider that we will take a thought or an experience or a perceived* experience or whatever and analyze it and it will start to grow and become true. I'm sure you know what I mean.

I'm not saying i think these people are making stuff up but I know weird stuff happens after the brain dies or begins to die or comes back to life. the "light in the tunnel" and "life flashback" has explanations. the moment of death can be argued. Maybe we are conscious of whatever weird things that happen right down to the last dieing cell. Maybe sometimes we come back with this new experience that can only be expressed by the limitations of our senses. And then we have to make sense of it and write something in stone. Maybe because we feel uncomfortable not knowing? Didn't ET say death is an illusion?

I can't come to any conclusion all I can do is consider the possibilities. Which leaves me not knowing. I'm having a hard time believing anything right now. I could just blabber all day. I like the idea of formlessness though.

Re: Tolle on death and what happens

PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 5:18 am
by Webwanderer
Speaking of presuming to know something...
dasaniwater wrote: I know weird stuff happens after the brain dies or begins to die or comes back to life.

How is it you know this? Unless you are a scientist in the field or have personal experience, could you actually know what happens to consciousness when the brain dies, or is it something you heard/saw/read? For that matter, do the scientists actually know? Or is it just a speculative guess formed on certain evidence out of a base presumption of materialism?

If you want to get more clarity on the subject, here's the tip of the research iceberg from Thomas Campbell, a genuine explorer of extra-physical consciousness:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v39EKUT2stc

There is much, much more available.

WW

Re: Tolle on death and what happens

PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 9:58 am
by garuda
I believe that much of our perceptions (interpretations) at the time of death depend on the combination of our psychological/emotional mental state (fear, happy, contentment, etc) AND the extent of our identification with either form or the formless awareness. These two together determine the quality of our conscious experience at the time of death and the colors, sounds, and images experienced as we pass through the bardos. Then the quality of the bardo and destination of the next incarnation depends on the our past karma AND the “intent” we established at the point of entering bardo depending on our level of consciousness.

If we happen to be strongly identified with our physical form at the time of death, then the destination will be determined by karmic causes and conditions (interdependence). This involves finding parents and location that best suits our particular karmic tendencies. At the point of reincarnation, the mindstream will contain most of the signals and information contained in the life-force energy transmuted to the rebirth. The remaining signals and genetic information we receive will be contained in the DNA substance (energy) passed in the sperm and egg of our parents. When these energies merge, we will then have the life force energy (Qi substances) needed for forming the consciousness, sub-consciousness, and the physical characteristics of the new body/mind that we take on as our next incarnation in the world of form.

If however, we are strongly identified with the formless awareness-consciousness (Source) at the moment before entering the bardo, then we will have some choices as to how and where we intent to reincarnate. But there must be that subtle “intent” at the time of death and throughout the bardo to direct that outcome.

At least, this is my understanding of the general aspects of it. I could be wrong.

Re: Tolle on death and what happens

PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 11:16 am
by Sighclone
I encourage anyone with a few dollars to sign up for and take a "Life Between Lives" past-life regresssion hypnotherapy session - from the teachings of Michael Newton -- here: http://www.spiritualregression.org/search.php

I did one with Joelle McGonagle in the State of Washington, about five years ago...very interesting.

Andy

Re: Tolle on death and what happens

PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 8:38 pm
by dasaniwater
Webwanderer wrote:Speaking of presuming to know something...
dasaniwater wrote: I know weird stuff happens after the brain dies or begins to die or comes back to life.

How is it you know this?

Google it lol.
I liked this article. http://science.howstuffworks.com/scienc ... ience4.htm.
this one too:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... -2,00.html

Webwanderer wrote:Unless you are a scientist in the field or have personal experience, could you actually know what happens to consciousness when the brain dies, or is it something you heard/saw/read? For that matter, do the scientists actually know? Or is it just a speculative guess formed on certain evidence out of a base presumption of materialism?

I don't know what happens. i don't think scientists do either. One of those articles said "Nonetheless, there's still no definitive explanation." I don't think anyone but the dead zen master knows what happens when we die. Or "phisical death" as ET said.
All I can do is speculate like the rest of us based on what I have heard, seen and read, experienced and remember. Some ideas feel good some don't. bottom line I have no idea.

Webwanderer wrote:If you want to get more clarity on the subject, here's the tip of the research iceberg from Thomas Campbell, a genuine explorer of extra-physical consciousness:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v39EKUT2stc
There is much, much more available.
WW

Red flags go up when a human being says they know what happens after we die. Do we just believe this because we have a choice what to believe and this sounds good?

either way, I really like how he explained the idea of reincarnation. its Inspiring and I'll probably research it more. What are the lessons we think we have to learn? Why do you think this is what is happening?