My problem with reincarnation

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love the magic
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My problem with reincarnation

Post by love the magic » Sat Aug 04, 2012 4:55 pm

I have a problem with reincarnation. And it's not that I doubt it's reality.
It's different than that.
If I am a suffering being in this life for actions in the past, I feel I must be even less inclined to correct
the error of my ways than last, not more. So I will do even worse things in this life, being even greater inclined to do so, than in the last.
For example, my acts borne of selfishness and lust will result in a new existence more focused on selfishness and lust, eclipsing the tendencies
that would get me out of the hole I have made for myself.
And on it would go/has gone. It's not a happy picture.
I partly feel, as Ramana-ji says, that God would never refuse a seeker and that the dark days of my life are my teachers. But I feel my encounters with more negative experiences are attracting ever more negative events. And I'm feeling a certain logic in how that could be the case.
I love Ramana Maharshi. He is not physically here for me to ask. So I will pray he speaks to me through others who love him also.

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Re: My problem with reincarnation

Post by Webwanderer » Sat Aug 04, 2012 6:01 pm

love the magic wrote:I love Ramana Maharshi. He is not physically here for me to ask. So I will pray he speaks to me through others who love him also.
There is no need to limit your sources of insight. Is it not better to simply pray for clarity and let Source choose the conduit? Is it not your job to simply remain open to the answers you seek and accept them based upon your own resulting expanded understanding?

WW

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Re: My problem with reincarnation

Post by love the magic » Sun Aug 05, 2012 1:32 pm

Well, by Ramana I mean Source. It's just a manner of speaking.

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Re: My problem with reincarnation

Post by Webwanderer » Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:53 pm

love the magic wrote:I have a problem with reincarnation. And it's not that I doubt it's reality.
It's different than that.
If I am a suffering being in this life for actions in the past, I feel I must be even less inclined to correct
the error of my ways than last, not more. So I will do even worse things in this life, being even greater inclined to do so, than in the last.
For example, my acts borne of selfishness and lust will result in a new existence more focused on selfishness and lust, eclipsing the tendencies
that would get me out of the hole I have made for myself.
And on it would go/has gone. It's not a happy picture.
Well, I'm not Ramana, but I'll give you my take on your concerns.

My sense is that you are combining karma with reincarnation, and that you are misunderstanding both. Karma is not so much payback carried from previous lifetimes that have to be worked off, rather it is a reflection of your current energies carried in your daily life. Balancing karma is a matter of balancing energies by refocusing on preferable experiences. It is a mental/emotional focus. As your life feels lousy and you focus thought on that feeling you get more of it. It's karma in action. Anything brought from a past life that causes pain is just energies in need of refocusing, not punishment.

As far as getting out of the hole you have made for yourself, the first thing and most important thing to do is stop digging.

What I'm saying is that the more you focus on what troubles you the more energy you pour into it and the more it manifests in your life. This is karma in action. Refocus the energies on the things in life that bring you joy and happiness. Make peace with what concerns you and let it go in favor of what you prefer.

The 'happy picture' you mentioned that does not exist for you is there awaiting your focus. Now, life is a big ship on on open sea, and turning it away from storms and icebergs towards calm waters in tropical paradises may take some time, but that's the nature of reincarnation. You have eternity to get it turned toward joy and happiness. But it won't get done until you make it happen. The good news is that when you do get your life turned you will own it, and joy will be the result.

You don't have to supply the energy either, that is a gift from Source. All you need do is focus your attention. You are doing it anyway, just unconsciously out of conditioning. Take control of your focus at every opportunity. Don't linger when old habits reassert themselves. Just make peace with the concerns of the moment and refocus life energy toward the happiness you prefer.

WW

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Re: My problem with reincarnation

Post by karmarider » Sun Aug 05, 2012 6:14 pm

love-the-magic,

Reincarnation and karma and whatever else you are thinking in this are all just concepts. And there are numerous interpretations of these beliefs.

There's no question that what we are influences what we attract in life. The experience of life is sensed through the mind and if there is negativity in the mind then there there is negativity in the experience of life, and there is the strong desire to overcome the negativity by trying to become more positive. We try to become more positive through better understanding of concepts and beliefs and practices and so on.

It's more direct to simply remove the negativity (the basic fear of life). All that is positive and happy--all that we seek is already here.

If you like Ramana, check John Sherman who I think cleanly and simply explains the technique that Ramana (and Nisargadatta) gave the world.

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Re: My problem with reincarnation

Post by rideforever » Sun Aug 05, 2012 7:07 pm

'Suffering' is much worse than people imagine. Perhaps you just haven't encountered it yet at it's full extent.

Of course unconsciousness has momentum - otherwise it would cease to exist very quickly.

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom. And many are too afraid to enter into life, instead taking the compromise of sitting silently pretending to know something.
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Re: My problem with reincarnation

Post by love the magic » Mon Aug 06, 2012 10:35 am

rideforever wrote:'Suffering' is much worse than people imagine. Perhaps you just haven't encountered it yet at it's full extent.

Of course unconsciousness has momentum - otherwise it would cease to exist very quickly.
What does this mean?

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Re: My problem with reincarnation

Post by love the magic » Mon Aug 06, 2012 10:47 am

Accumulated karma is an aggregate. The more that's accumulated, the more likely to attract even more negativity in the next incarnation - and the weaker the ability to "simply view positively". This is the digging of the hole which I referred to. There would be no gradual way out of this. Only by the grace of God. Who and by what means does one merit such a grace?

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Re: My problem with reincarnation

Post by karmarider » Mon Aug 06, 2012 1:34 pm

love the magic wrote:Accumulated karma is an aggregate. The more that's accumulated, the more likely to attract even more negativity in the next incarnation - and the weaker the ability to "simply view positively". This is the digging of the hole which I referred to. There would be no gradual way out of this. Only by the grace of God. Who and by what means does one merit such a grace?
This meritocratic grace you are seeking is already your right. It is simply the seeing that there is another possibility and forming the intention to face up to the fear.

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Re: My problem with reincarnation

Post by love the magic » Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:10 am

karmarider wrote:
love the magic wrote:Accumulated karma is an aggregate. The more that's accumulated, the more likely to attract even more negativity in the next incarnation - and the weaker the ability to "simply view positively". This is the digging of the hole which I referred to. There would be no gradual way out of this. Only by the grace of God. Who and by what means does one merit such a grace?
This meritocratic grace you are seeking is already your right. It is simply the seeing that there is another possibility and forming the intention to face up to the fear.
Then we are saying aggregated karma is an illusion of our own creation, carried over from one existence to another (in fact, Ramana does say that)
Otherwise, an aggregated karma would imply an ever-increasingly weaker ability to see what is "already your right". And that would result in the dilemma I mentioned at the beginning of this thread.

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Re: My problem with reincarnation

Post by rideforever » Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:22 am

love the magic wrote:
rideforever wrote:'Suffering' is much worse than people imagine. Perhaps you just haven't encountered it yet at it's full extent.

Of course unconsciousness has momentum - otherwise it would cease to exist very quickly.
What does this mean?
Often when people debate religions for instance they discuss how it could be possible for so many people to die in wars if a creator existed. But the true deep suffering is far worse than that, it is existential and within each of us in every moment. In fact nearly all human activity is a way to escape from that 'pain'. And humans are very active. Whilst they debate the suffering in War, the miss the devastation within them that is the cause of their moment to moment distress. But you have to be a little conscious to see it.

Unconsciousness has it's own momentum and ways of keeping itself going. That's why people who are unconscious can keep going for a long time. And I have heard that it is possible for some never to return to the light, it's like a black hole, if unconsciousness develops enough mass their is no escape - perhaps that is hell. But for almost all, they return to the ocean of light at some point.
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Re: My problem with reincarnation

Post by karmarider » Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:23 am

love the magic wrote:Then we are saying aggregated karma is an illusion of our own creation, carried over from one existence to another (in fact, Ramana does say that)
Otherwise, an aggregated karma would imply an ever-increasingly weaker ability to see what is "already your right". And that would result in the dilemma I mentioned at the beginning of this thread.
Well, you're identified with beliefs in a particular version of karma and a particular version of reincarnation, and you're trying to see things within the filter of those beliefs. And this is the problem with beliefs--the identification with any belief, even the "good" ones, is highly limiting.

Without the filter of these beliefs, things look simpler. The problem is that we all have a basic fear of life which comes to us very early in life, perhaps when we are born. And it is in this context of fear that all our mental constructs form. We experience life through the mind but our mind lives in the context of fear and so everything else is necessarily uncertain. What we want to do is continually escape from this hum of anxiety--and that is called seeking. Most of our endeavors have to do with trying to escape from what we think is this horror of life. We try to escape in ambition, success, religion, spirituality, beliefs, practices, wisdom, and so on.

The problem is not that we do not fully understand karma or reincarnation (or any other belief). The problem is more basic. It is the fear of life which motivates us to seek solutions in particular beliefs in the first place.

What I suggest to you is that instead of trying to understand Ramana's spirituality, do the technique he suggests. Ramana gave the world a very simple technique, the inquiry "Who am I?" but you can see that most people will ignore the technique. People talk about it and write about it and quote it, but even the people who are very interested in Ramana, will not actually do the technique.

One reason is that it may be difficult to understand what Ramana was getting to. I didn't understand it for three years. It's the same with Nisargadatta--his technique of looking at the sense of I am is actually the same. Both techniques, when understood, are ridiculously simple. But I didn't understand this for many years as well.

So if you want to do technique, I think John Sherman explains it clearly and cleanly, without the burden of spiritual terms. It's just looking at the sense of you, the very ordinary sense of you. I suggest you go to http://justonelook.org/ to get a direct explanation of it.

And if you do that technique, you'll find that it is not necessary to believe or unbelieve. Your beliefs of karma and reincarnation will not help or hurt. Your belief that karma is limiting you or your belief that grace is needed to overcome karma's accumulated resistance will not help or hurt. What I said about the fear of life will also not help or hurt. It is not necessary to believe or unbelieve anything; the technique works anyway.

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Re: My problem with reincarnation

Post by smiileyjen101 » Thu Aug 09, 2012 10:05 pm

If I am a suffering being in this life for actions in the past, I feel I must be even less inclined to correct
the error of my ways than last, not more. So I will do even worse things in this life, being even greater inclined to do so, than in the last.
For example, my acts borne of selfishness and lust will result in a new existence more focused on selfishness and lust, eclipsing the tendencies that would get me out of the hole I have made for myself.
And on it would go/has gone. It's not a happy picture.
That's an interesting perspective love the magic, for me it's missing the bit in the middle - the bit between physical lives where we return to being our pure essence of love and compassion without ignorance and without fear and can see the entirety of cause and effect in our actions and in the actions of others without 'judgement' based on fear and ignorance of our oneness and eternal nature.

If you look at some of the nde - near death experiences you will see, as was the case in my own experience, that overwhelmingly the realisation in the light is consistently an amazing realisation - that the 'judgement' that religions have espoused as a trial and punishment is not that at all.

It is a realising in pure love and compassion and awareness that some responses were 'fuelled' by the understandable mis-perception in ignorance of who we really are, and in choosing fear and believing in separation of things. You see very quickly the exponential waves of effect that these responses trigger. You also see, so beautifully it fuels and energises the light of all life, the moments you choose love and compassion over fear.

Once it is seen in the light and in this state of full consciousness and love the only realisation is that love and compassion is always a better choice. The answer to every thing, every situation, every problem, every fear is
'with love and compassion'.

Try it, ask any question from how can we feed the starving masses in this world.... with love and compassion
to how can I feel better about my life... with love and compassion

There is no problem/perspective that is not made better by applying what is eternal - there is no fear and no ignorance that is eternal - it disappears in the light of knowledge of who we really are - love eternal.

Now, with this knowledge in the light we 'see' so much that would have changed so much had we chosen love and compassion over fear. In the light the fear is not demonised, it's illuminated. It's understood that the 'challenge' of the physical life is to reach into and connect with our full selves - it's kind of no more, no less than watching yourself in a maze taking wrong turns, bumping into things... eventually we all get out of it - and yet by the resonance, by the energy emitted by enacting love and compassion even when veiled from the totality, it just makes the 'light' grow more - it is a sort of
energy feeder of the all.

The 'interesting' thing is joining in on this game of life is somehow ...a gift to the universe (all) itself, it powers the universe when we choose love and compassion when we have the 'opportunity' through our veiled separation and ignorance, to choose fear - to choose the 'all' over the 'self'.

To be honest I wasn't really thrilled at the notion of leaving the light to re-enter my body in my nde and rejoin this game of life, yet I did it willingly in a surge of love and compassion - the expression of immense love and compassion and understanding and awareness of the 'importance' and yet not, of accessing and accepting opportunities to choose love and compassion over fear, over the veiled separation that we can only experience in this physical dimension.

It seems to me that these opportunities are kind of like playing a game, realising where we could (maybe) do it better and saying 'Let's do that again", the opportunities come in different shapes and forms - imagine if you play solitaire - the cards are all reformatted differently, but you have learned from other games of solitaire you've played, and hopefully you learn from your mistakes and play it better. It seems to me this is why peaceful, compassionate, joyful people are considered to be 'old souls' - ones who have played this game many times before and learned on a deeper level that they can still be love and compassion.

We cannot have these opportunities in the light because all is illumined, all is love and loved, we have no way of knowing that we are love because there is no contrast to it.

It seems to me nde'ers come back with this knowledge, there seems to be a lot of babies that come back with this knowledge too. I don't know about the 'all' in terms of whether it's changing at all in terms of evolution and the history of us taking these opportunities.

Interestingly though your concerns are apparently the same as the reason a pope had the teaching about reincarnation removed from the bible (circa 500 AD), he felt that people who knew they had eternal opportunities to incarnate would abdicate their sense of responsibilities for 'right' behaviours in this life. The interesting thing for me is that is a totally fear-based perspective - in the light it is all absolutely unfolded and unhidden and the 'choice' to re-engage and 'do over' some missed opportunities to choose love and compassion over fear is made not by the limited human perspective, but by the greater self - with full knowledge that some things would be hidden to their human form.

Maybe read the accounts of those who've had nde's you'll notice the difference in perspective of coming back into body is consistent.
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Re: My problem with reincarnation

Post by rideforever » Sun Sep 02, 2012 12:03 pm

love the magic wrote:So I will do even worse things in this life, being even greater inclined to do so, than in the last.
Giving up is the last thing anyone does. They cling on and cling on and cling on.

But no matter if you come to it from a positive path or a negative path, we must all "give up" ... we must all accept existence ... and then, so the story goes, we understand that we are existence and the shadow who was clinging on so tight was temporary.
I was proud, and I demanded the finest teacher
.. .. and when he appeared
.. .. .. .. I was so small

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