Very Short quotes from Ramana

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rideforever
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Re: Very Short quotes from Ramana

Post by rideforever » Tue Dec 25, 2012 8:15 am

ashley72 wrote:The physicality of life is real... No question.
Are you refusing to examine your identification with your body ?
I was proud, and I demanded the finest teacher
.. .. and when he appeared
.. .. .. .. I was so small

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ashley72
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Re: Very Short quotes from Ramana

Post by ashley72 » Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:57 am

rideforever wrote:
ashley72 wrote:The physicality of life is real... No question.
Are you refusing to examine your identification with your body ?
Lets see....
*Give up the thought that you are this body.~ Ramana
"Thought" is the symbolic level which maps..... ????? (Drum-roll please)

***The physical space and physical behaviours*** ~

You could re-write Ramana's pointer to this...

"Give up the meta-physical level that you are this physical body."

It's impossible to give up the physical (source), but its not impossible to alter the symbolism (target).
Last edited by ashley72 on Wed Dec 26, 2012 1:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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rideforever
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Re: Very Short quotes from Ramana

Post by rideforever » Tue Dec 25, 2012 1:43 pm

Your mind is very excited with theories. It seems to me you are unable to see beyond the excitement and really have a good look at what is going on.

You value the excitement highly and you don't want to let go of it.
I was proud, and I demanded the finest teacher
.. .. and when he appeared
.. .. .. .. I was so small

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ashley72
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Re: Very Short quotes from Ramana

Post by ashley72 » Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:48 pm

Can you 'identify' the person this drawing is suppose to symbolise?

Image

The drawing is not Ramana, but rather an 'image' of a Ramana.

tod
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Re: Very Short quotes from Ramana

Post by tod » Tue Dec 25, 2012 10:04 pm

ashley72 wrote:The questionable part of the quote is..."As long as you believe that you are that physical form presented by thought, suffering will ensue: that is the package."

I think it should state... "As long as you believe that you are merely a symbolic mapping (target domain) of the 'physical' body (source domain) presented by symbolic thought, suffering will ensue".
Both these quotes assume a prior belief that you are a physical entity. The former addresses this, the latter does not. The latter addresses a belief about that belief, but not the belief itself.

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Re: Very Short quotes from Ramana

Post by rideforever » Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:24 pm

It is beautiful, but Ramana is not a person but a movement of intelligence.

The intelligence that is the teaching is not connected to any form, it exists independently.
I was proud, and I demanded the finest teacher
.. .. and when he appeared
.. .. .. .. I was so small

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ashley72
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Re: Very Short quotes from Ramana

Post by ashley72 » Wed Dec 26, 2012 1:18 am

tod wrote:Both these quotes assume a prior belief (identification with active symbols) that you are a physical entity. The former addresses this, the latter does not. The latter addresses a belief (active symbols) about that belief (active symbols), but not the belief (active symbols) itself.
The first quote attempts to get a complex biological system to change its active symbols to physical nihilism (denial of the biological system) using natural language (active symbols). This is delusional.

The second quote attempts to teach a complex biological system that their active symbols is merely a target domain (mapping), whilst the physical (biological system) is the source domain using language (active symbols). :wink:
Last edited by ashley72 on Wed Dec 26, 2012 1:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Very Short quotes from Ramana

Post by ashley72 » Wed Dec 26, 2012 1:29 am

rideforever wrote:It is beautiful, but Ramana is not a person but a movement of intelligence.

The intelligence that is the teaching is not connected to any form, it exists independently.
At the moment you are using language (active symbols) to 'imply' that Ramana never existed as complex biological system (physical being) but merely as a bunch of active symbols. If however, you're talking about the legacy of his teachings (active symbols) I agree in part. I don't agree that active symbols (target domain) can exist independently to the physical (source domain).

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Re: Very Short quotes from Ramana

Post by ashley72 » Wed Dec 26, 2012 1:41 am

Tod & Rider,

We do not need to deny our physical existence to deal with the treachery of "active symbols". This is my interpretation of Ramana's teaching.

On a personal level, I have successfully dealt with the treachery of active symbols (target domain) without denying my physical existence (source domain). I did it by realising that my attentional control is an amphibian between the symbolic (not being) & the physical (being).

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Re: Very Short quotes from Ramana

Post by rideforever » Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:41 am

All thought is symbol. All science is thought. It is all treachery.
I was proud, and I demanded the finest teacher
.. .. and when he appeared
.. .. .. .. I was so small

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Re: Very Short quotes from Ramana

Post by tod » Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:05 pm

ashley72 wrote:
tod wrote:Both these quotes assume a prior belief (identification with active symbols) that you are a physical entity. The former addresses this, the latter does not. The latter addresses a belief (active symbols) about that belief (active symbols), but not the belief (active symbols) itself.
Ashley, I did not write this. Please quote what I actually said or explain how you have changed what I wrote.
The first quote attempts to get a complex biological system to change its active symbols to physical nihilism (denial of the biological system) using natural language (active symbols). This is delusional.
It appears that you are reading into that quote what is not there. Belief neither confirms nor denies either the existence or non-existence of anything.
The second quote attempts to teach a complex biological system that their active symbols is merely a target domain (mapping), whilst the physical (biological system) is the source domain using language (active symbols). :wink:
I am aware of that system.

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Re: Very Short quotes from Ramana

Post by ashley72 » Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:37 am

tod wrote:It appears that you are reading into that quote what is not there. Belief neither confirms nor denies either the existence or non-existence of anything.
FACT or FICTION?

A "belief" is a mapping of the source domain (physical space) into a target domain (using symbolic thought). It can be either an accurate or in-accurate mapping of the source domain. For a mapping to work the physical space (source domain) is separated into objects (active symbols) in the target domain. These objects or behaviours only exist in the target domain as active symbols. BTW, symbolic thoughts can be written down in physical space and interpreted by other complex biological systems or complex artificial systems which have been taught how to interpret a symbol set.

Young children are fooled by adults that Santa Claus exists in physical space and flies magically across the sky, delivering Christmas presents down chimneys on Christmas Day. The story of Santa Claus is a work of fiction....a fantasy. There is no old white-bearded man in a red outfit flying across the evening skies of physical space on Christmas Day. But young children are still deluded or tricked into actively mapping these symbols into the target domain as a falsehood.

On the other hand, when I "accurately" map my physical behaviours in physical space this has a factual basis in the source domain. When I observe eyelids physically blinking in the mirror... this is not a fantasy.. this is happening in physical space.

The source domain (physical space) exists... The active symbols (target domain) is merely the mapping of physical space. The target mapping can be either an accurate or in-accurate representation of physical space. If accurate its factual... If in-accurate its fictional.
In Lewis Carroll's Through the Looking-Glass the White Queen says, "Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast." This is often quoted in mockery of the common ability of people to entertain beliefs contrary to fact.

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Re: Very Short quotes from Ramana

Post by tod » Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:59 pm

ashley72 wrote: The source domain (physical space) exists... The active symbols (target domain) is merely the mapping of physical space. The target mapping can be either an accurate or in-accurate representation of physical space. If accurate its factual... If in-accurate its fictional.
Yes, that is a common and conventionally useful way of looking at things. However, have you looked at discerning precisely the moment when an arising sensation gets made into something. IOW, the point or origin of storytelling (it could be called the origin of fiction).

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Re: Very Short quotes from Ramana

Post by ashley72 » Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:59 am

tod wrote:
ashley72 wrote: The source domain (physical space) exists... The active symbols (target domain) is merely the mapping of physical space. The target mapping can be either an accurate or in-accurate representation of physical space. If accurate its factual... If in-accurate its fictional.
Yes, that is a common and conventionally useful way of looking at things. However, have you looked at discerning precisely the moment when an arising sensation gets made into something. IOW, the point or origin of storytelling (it could be called the origin of fiction).
I disagree with your use of the word "fiction" is this way.

Mapping "physical space & physical behaviours" into "things" (target domain) accurately, so those mappings can be confirmed by other observers (humans with language centres) - is regarded as "factual" mappings in the target domain.

Verbal & written communication occurs in the speaking or language centres of the brain...which is the target domain. We communicate in the target domain. Therefore you need to speak of fact or fiction in respect to the target domain. :wink:

You're trying to relate fact or fiction purely the source domain without regard for target domain which is category mistake. To be an "observer" you have to be able to access your speech or language center. Animals are not "observers" in respect to the target domain as they don't have access to language centres that map into the target domain.

We are communicate here using the target domain. Therefore fact or fiction only have meaning in respect to this target domain.

Your proposing everything we map in the target domain is fictional... This is not the conventional way to use the word 'fiction'. Most rational thinkers would find this blantant dis-regard of basic convention irrational.

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Re: Very Short quotes from Ramana

Post by tod » Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:30 pm

Ok, so you haven't looked at, or found, what I was talking about. That's fine.

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