Does it ever feel forced to you?

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Re: Does it ever feel forced to you?

Postby erpman » Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:29 pm

But your take on what that lady said and what ET says is still treating things/situations as a means to an end...
Using meditation to solve a crisis, you don't need to meditate you only need to 'solve' - come to terms with and choose your response consciously
Using when life is going relatively smoothly to practice presence is taking you away from what is - it also gives you a cop out to not respond consciously with love and compassion in the moment - I'll think about that next time things are going a bit smoother ....ppfftt
If your response is to delay responding then your response is no response in this moment
- own it, don't excuse it.


I´ve been a bit imprecise in my wording it seems. I think we mean the same thing. I said that meditation will not work to solve a crisis if you in the midst of that crisis turn to meditation in the hope that it will solve your problems. No you don´t need to meditate you just need to solve, but a lot of people think that meditation can solve your problems, which it can´t.

(and practice for me has the same resonance as 'trying') - the focus is on 'practising' as if its not the real deal - every moment is the real deal and it only comes this once - you can 'try' in the moment, you can 'practice' in that moment or you can BE in/with/one the moment and respond consciously - then let it go. Just like a breath breathed out a new moment will flow in, you don't have to schedule for them, in fact you can't 'schedule' for them they come when they come.


With meditation practice i didn´t mean "training", but "habit". The habit to meditate on a regular basis is a meditation practice. However...

What I understand that Eckhart is saying about practicing presence when life is smooth is to practice remembering to be present when life is smooth, to build up a new habit, because when it gets turbulent, chances are that you don´t even remember to respond with love and compassion in the first place, and then then you can´t even put it off for later :wink:

So the point is still to not make this too complicated. Because ET´s message is so simple our minds tries to make it into something it can ponder, which in turn makes it hard to just accept the beautiful simplicity of it.
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Re: Does it ever feel forced to you?

Postby smiileyjen101 » Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:45 am

:)Jen said: Meditating is meditating, not practicing consciousness.
Practicing consciousness is practicing, not being conscious.
Being conscious is everything - if we chose to be conscious we can be conscious in any and every or no moments - and that's all okay too, it just brings a different experience.


Erpman said: With meditation practice i didn´t mean "training", but "habit".
The habit to meditate on a regular basis is a meditation practice. However..


Erpman said: What I understand that Eckhart is saying about practicing presence when life is smooth is to practice remembering to be present when life is smooth, to build up a new habit,


So if you're building a habit of meditating, then focus in building the 'habit' is focussed on scheduling it in, making yourself comfortable for it - oh crap I have to go work instead...sigh, humbug.. is this meditating? No, it's still using the 'habit' of meditating in order to meditate, rather than oh look I've got a spare moment .....meditate.....
no habit required, no scheduling required, no practice required.

Now lets look at 'remembering to be present when life is smooth, to build up a new habit'. hmmmmmmmmmmm - which of these verbs are getting the attention?
'remembering' ... gosh darn now who was it who said what now, and didn't someone else say something else? How did he word it? What page was it on again?
What are we doing.. that's right we are remembering.

'when life is smooth' ..... gosh darn now is it really smooth? how smooth does it need to be?... surely it's not REALLY smooth, gosh darn I can't remember what smooth actually looks like, should I have a rating system for how smooth? Surely then I'll have to judge.. shall I judge when it's smooth enough or maybe someone else can tell me
:lol: do you think its smooth enough or should we just wait a wee while and hope it gets smoother...

I'm joshing with you obviously

What is not happening here is being present.

Therefore those things must be being created as obstacle, enemy, means to an end - rather than just being.

It is inately simple BEing needs no scheduling, no practice, no remembering, in fact it's probably the dropping of all that that allows you to BE in any and every moment that arises, as it arises.

It's the 'dressing up' of it that adds the the complex and unnecessary layers.
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Re: Does it ever feel forced to you?

Postby Jbrooke » Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:46 pm

Erpman said: What I understand that Eckhart is saying about practicing presence when life is smooth is to practice remembering to be present when life is smooth, to build up a new habit


So, what does Eckhart mean exactly when he says this? (You might have already explained it- not sure)
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Re: Does it ever feel forced to you?

Postby rideforever » Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:09 pm

smiileyjen101 wrote:What is not happening here is being present.

It is inately simple BEing needs no scheduling, no practice, no remembering, in fact it's probably the dropping of all that that allows you to BE in any and every moment that arises, as it arises.

For 95% of people this is meaningless.

If you are sincerely interested in assisting them, you must begin from where they are - not from where you are. Otherwise, it's just about you.
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Re: Does it ever feel forced to you?

Postby erpman » Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:46 pm

So, what does Eckhart mean exactly when he says this? (You might have already explained it- not sure)


I can only offer my take on what he says, which is that it´s better to get into the habit of being present when you are in a life situation that doesn´t make you seek out presence as a cure for your problems. That´s what I did, and it took me a while to get it right, ie. to stop treating presence as a means to an end (which is why I´m in this discussion in the first place.) I repeat: chances are that if you haven´t gotten into that whole presence thing in a phase of life where you were open to it, you´ll be absorbed in your ego when that difficult situation comes, and you won´t be present at all.

What the definition of "smooth life" is is up to each and everyone, I´m just saying that if you treat eckhart tolle´s teachings as means to an end (to make the pain of a difficult life situation go away) you won´t see the results you are hoping for.

Let´s not confuse this with zen meditation (zazen) which is a very specialized form of ritual. I just thought that the zen-lady illustrated my point well.

I agree with rideforever´s quote:

For 95% of people this is meaningless.

If you are sincerely interested in assisting them, you must begin from where they are - not from where you are. Otherwise, it's just about you.


in that if you want to help people absorbed by minds dominated by ego and means-to-end thinking, the only way to dissolve that is to go by it -to convince the ego to let itself be dissolved so to speak. I disagree that this perpetuates the ego´s dominance by allowing it to constantly putting awakening off. Eckhart describes awakening as a process, as a rolling snowball. As you experience presence, you want more of it, and so this process, once initiated, takes a course of its own.

That is the beauty of Eckahrts teaching in my opinion: he does away with a lot of the mumbo-jumbo and meets people where they are with words that are easy to understand for ordinary western people. That way he avoids what we are to a certain extent starting to do in this discussion: to get caught up in definitions and choice of words. It´s not about the words, they are just pointers so we can get on with the important thing: to be present.
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Re: Does it ever feel forced to you?

Postby rideforever » Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:11 pm

erpman wrote:they are just pointers so we can get on with the important thing

No. Everything is the important thing.

What you describe is precisely living in the future. You think you are talking about the present; but your choice of words clearly shows you are living in the future.
Last edited by rideforever on Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Does it ever feel forced to you?

Postby smiileyjen101 » Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:14 pm

Here's something that may explain being in the present moment - being present is not a process, a process takes time and steps (such as scheduling and practising and evaluating and remembering).

Its from a topic discussing Dan Millman's book 'The Life You Were Born to Live' published 11 years before ET's Power of Now, so maybe I've gotten confused about ET's experience on the park bench and his realisation about being present.


"The law of the present moment can sweep our psyche clear of debris and return us to a state of simplicity and inner peace. It won’t help us in the future, however, and it never happened in the past”

... “Normally, when we have a problem, it involves something that has already happened, whether two seconds ago or two decades ago or something that we anticipate will happen in what we call the future. We almost never have a problem in the present moment.

For example, Rudolph is sitting on a park bench, in the middle of his mid-life crisis. His wife is leaving him; his daughter is getting her Ph.D. in shopping with his last credit card; the bank just sent someone over to nail a foreclosure sign on his front door; his son needs bail money for driving while drunk in a stolen car.

Rudolph’s life is in shambles.

Or is it? Didn’t we begin this little scenario as he sat on a park bench? In the moment, just sitting is Rudolph’s reality.

He may have to deal with other moments and other problems, but right now, he has no problems. He is just sitting on a park bench.

Our body lives in the present moment. Despite all the thoughts we may have about past mistakes or future problems, we can call upon the Law of the Present Moment, reminding ourselves that only now exists. All we have to do is make the most of relaxing into and embracing this moment, and put one foot in front of the other as we handle what appears right now, one moment, one step at a time.”


The built up stories and the moving this ability to BE in this or any moment to some other time when it can be remembered, practised, turned into a process.... is not necessary. It cannot be 'returned to' it cannot be scheduled, yes likely the more you do this the more you want to do this, but if you are concentrating on remembering it, or practising it or any other thing you are not being present - 'relaxing into and embracing this moment' because your attention is on other things.

It's kind of why it might feel 'forced' as the title of this topic says.

The topic that this came from looks at the natural laws of energy in motion and how to recognise and be in harmony with them. viewtopic.php?f=46&t=9381
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Re: Does it ever feel forced to you?

Postby erpman » Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:15 am

No. Everything is the important thing.

What you describe is precisely living in the future. You think you are talking about the present; but your choice of words clearly shows you are living in the future.


Pardon my french, but geez... Please don´t psychologize me based on your interpretation of some words in a post in an internet forum.

Smileyjen´s quote pretty much sums up what I´m getting at. No, you can´t plan to be present, and you can´t plan to be more present in the future. You can only be present now.

But if you don´t realize that you have the option to let all your thoughts dissolve, or observe them and your emotions from a place of awareness, if you don´t remember that simple fact, then what? Then you are sitting on that park bench under the impression that your life is in shambles. This is what I´m talking about with regard to remembering or habit. Just that.
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Re: Does it ever feel forced to you?

Postby smiileyjen101 » Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:56 am

No, you can´t plan to be present, and you can´t plan to be more present in the future. You can only be present now.

But if you don´t realize that you have the option to let all your thoughts dissolve, or observe them and your emotions from a place of awareness, if you don´t remember that simple fact, then what? Then you are sitting on that park bench under the impression that your life is in shambles. This is what I´m talking about with regard to remembering or habit. Just that.


Erpman breathe out a moment. Let go of what you believed a moment ago.

The first line quoted is absolute.
There is no need for 'but'. But negates all that came before it, and in using it you are invoking being present now as having conditions that must be met. It's not true.

Even if you do not realize you have the option, you will still spend time in presence. Even if you do not remember you will still spend time in presence. You may not remember that you do spend time in presence, that doesn't alter the fact that you do.

If you notice that you spent time in presence and it was enjoyable you will seek to spend more time in presence, this will happen naturally as we learn from cause and effect. If you make a practice of it you are taking yourself away from presence and into 'practice'.

If you notice that you spent time in presence and that it arose naturally without you doing any thing, then you know that to become present you need do no thing, just be there for it. A child or a puppy for instance spends most of their time in presence, when we are creating we are innately present. We need do no thing to be present.

We 'do it' without even noticing that we do. Not all of our moments are filled with thoughts, many of our moments just slip by in being. The thing is we don't 'judge' or put 'value' on these moments, because we can't do that and stay present, as soon as we seek to evaluate we are looking to the past moment, and so we have stepped out of this one.

Now on the flip side, if we construct our lives with a notion that we need to 'do something' in order to be present we will feel that being present is 'forced', because it feels unauthentic, it's a representation of being present by some formula or process, but it's not actually being present - it has taken us away from being present and into evaluating presence. Even if we recognise that we 'were present' we have stepped out of being present because if we are re-cognising it is after the moment has passed.

So again, you need not seek, you need not practice, you need not remember, you need not evaluate - these things clutter your mind adding to the long list of things that add to you being taken away from being present. The good news is there are 86,400 seconds in a day, and there are multitudes of 'moments' in a second across dimensions most are not aware of that are presence to which we return often and often without 'remembering' that we do.
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Re: Does it ever feel forced to you?

Postby erpman » Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:48 am

Yes, I agree to most of this.

My problem with what you´re saying is that if presence only happens spontaneously, out of the blue, like in children or animals, then why did Eckhart write a book about it? Wouldn´t it have been better if he had done nothing at all, or maybe distributed a note saying "just keep doing everything just as before" so people wouldn´t think about it and get confused? :wink:

The big turning point for me with reading the power of now was the realization that that experience I have when being absorbed or creative is available all the time. Hence, that I DON`T have to do something extraordinary, like skiing or running in order to be in that state, that I could be present when doing even the most boring task. This made my life better, and I´m glad that someone told me about it. But if that´s not valid anymore, if being present by choice isn´t valid anymore, then even the things I used to do in order to get into presence (like skiing or running or meditating) aren´t valid anymore because then I´ll be "forcing" it.

You see what I mean? How do we deal with the fact that we have already thought about this, about being present? And consequently will be more prone to noticing when it happens? We´re even discussing the minute details about it on the internet. Do we try to forget everything we know about Eckhart Tolle and consciousness and so on? I thought the point was to let "consciousness become conscious of itself".
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Re: Does it ever feel forced to you?

Postby smiileyjen101 » Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:11 am

You see what I mean? How do we deal with the fact that we have already thought about this, about being present? And consequently will be more prone to noticing when it happens? We´re even discussing the minute details about it on the internet. Do we try to forget everything we know about Eckhart Tolle and consciousness and so on?

I thought the point was to let "consciousness become conscious of itself".


That's a truly lovely heartfelt expression Erpman, thank you for sharing it.

Consciousness IS already conscious of itself, across far more layers and dimensions than within your human (body) being. WE don't have to 'let' it.

Depending on what you understand consciousness to be there may be nuances of difference between our 'standing under' of this notion.

Why read, discuss, write, share etc etc .. because a good story bears repeating. As you may have noticed ET is not the first, nor will he be the last to share these expressions of consciousness becoming conscious of itself. Our journeys are of interest to each other as we are all manifestations, perspectives of consciousness waking itself up over and over from different perspectives.

The big turning point for me with reading the power of now was the realization that that experience I have when being absorbed or creative is available all the time.


Amen!

When you are 'being' absorbed or creative you are being - without practice, without any other thing required.

Hence, that I DON`T have to do something extraordinary, like skiing or running in order to be in that state, that I could be present when doing even the most boring task. This made my life better, and I´m glad that someone told me about it. But if that´s not valid anymore, if being present by choice isn´t valid anymore, then even the things I used to do in order to get into presence (like skiing or running or meditating) aren´t valid anymore because then I´ll be "forcing" it.


Keep everything before the But...
Hence, that I DON`T have to do something extraordinary, like skiing or running in order to be in that state, that I could be present when doing even the most boring task. This made my life better, and I´m glad that someone told me about it

^^ gratitude expressed is an expression of awareness, being :)

It doesn't need the projection into any future. Read your own words again.
Hence, that I DON`T have to do something extraordinary, like skiing or running in order to be in that state, that I could be present when doing even the most boring task.

Wonder if you could be aware of that when things are not so smooth, even if you haven't practised it into a habit?
maybe ....
that experience I have when being absorbed or creative is available all the time.


C'mon Erpman BE :D
(without any But.... )
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Re: Does it ever feel forced to you?

Postby smiileyjen101 » Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:58 am

My problem with what you´re saying is that if presence only happens spontaneously, out of the blue, like in children or animals, then why did Eckhart write a book about it? Wouldn´t it have been better if he had done nothing at all, or maybe distributed a note saying "just keep doing everything just as before" so people wouldn´t think about it and get confused?

Maybe you've assumed that ET was where you were when he wrote it and you read it.

People don't get confused for confusion's sake, they put barriers and But's and process logic into the interpretation of it, which is kinda funny/ironic given the topic matter about how and why ego does that.

ET realised like the explanation of that guy on the park bench, interestingly he realised it on a park bench, then he worked backwards,.... well what have I been doing? Why did I do that? Look around, look how many do this and don't even notice that they do it? Why he chose to share it I wouldn't even begin to assume, I'm not him.

If you come to this from the position of believing in the Buts and then if.. notions it seems it does take some unpacking, unlearning. If however you come from BEING it's all so simple it needs no explaining to BE, the value I found in it was more an added layer of understanding to learn why self and others sometimes cloud being - I came at ET's works from that direction after others had mentioned that my 'being' was likely not 'normal', which may be a different direction than others come to it.

It kind of speaks to this notion...
smiileyjen101 wrote:
What is not happening here is being present.

It is inately simple BEing needs no scheduling, no practice, no remembering, in fact it's probably the dropping of all that that allows you to BE in any and every moment that arises, as it arises.

Rideforever said: For 95% of people this is meaningless.

If you are sincerely interested in assisting them, you must begin from where they are - not from where you are. Otherwise, it's just about you.


I would ask which of the 95% would you like me to try to assume where they are?

There are brilliant posts in the beginning of this thread that may resonate more clearly now that things have been thrashed from a few different points of standing under.

No one can assume with any confidence where any other may be - where they are, they can only notice there is a distance, difference in perspectives and be willing to breach that divide. Maybe ET realised he was now somewhere different to where he had been and was sharing to help others to reach that place.
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Re: Does it ever feel forced to you?

Postby DavidB » Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:08 pm

Wouldn´t it have been better if he had done nothing at all, or maybe distributed a note saying "just keep doing everything just as before" so people wouldn´t think about it and get confused?



Hehehe, great question!!

Gave me a bit of a chuckle. Thanks for that. :D
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