Bliss - Beyond Pleasure and Pain

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Bliss - Beyond Pleasure and Pain

Postby Rick » Fri Aug 24, 2012 7:22 pm

A Christian friend illustrates what it "feels" liked to be "Saved" - the Christian term for Enlightenment.

He says:

"If I burn the tip of your finger, it hurts. If I put that finger in a glass of ice-water it feels good - this is pleasure. Pleasure/pain are like two horns on the same bull. But a happy, contented finger feels the absence of pain and pleasure. We could say it quietly feels nothing. And this is the nature of true happiness"

I was reminded of the above story when I recently read the following in a book about Advaita Vendanta. The author says:

"Bliss is not derived through the senses. Experiencing sense-derived joy is called enjoyment. Bliss is neither enjoyment nor suffering. It is beyond both. For example, let me suppose that I had a headache, and it hurt a lot. Half an hour after taking two aspirin tablets, my headache is gone and I no longer was suffering. But even though my headache had gone, was I enjoying? No, I was neither enjoying nor suffering. I had gone beyond both. I had got relief from both suffering and enjoyment. This relief from both enjoyment and suffering can be compared to Bliss...Suffering and enjoyment form a pair of opposites and belong to this world of time, space and causation. Therefore, Bliss, which is a state of relief from worldly suffering and enjoyment, must be transcendental. This transcendental Bliss is Brahman (Source)"

These two are suggesting that Bliss - or the Joy of Being as some call it - is not a happy or ecstatic emotion or feeling, but rather, a kind of unburdened, light-hearted evenness or openness as the natural state of Oneness, if it can be called a state.

Any thoughts?
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Re: Bliss - Beyond Pleasure and Pain

Postby rachMiel » Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:09 pm

If The Ground is beyond attributes, then the feeling of being The Ground might also be beyond attributes.

On the other hand, we have this ancient brain that comes equipped with lots of built-in "software": animal drives, racial memories, instinctual fears and joys, etc. So maybe when a human is The Ground, attributes are generated from The Ground being filtered through this ancient and very powerful organ.
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Re: Bliss - Beyond Pleasure and Pain

Postby the key master » Sun Aug 26, 2012 4:06 am

rachMiel wrote:If The Ground is beyond attributes, then the feeling of being The Ground might also be beyond attributes.

On the other hand, we have this ancient brain that comes equipped with lots of built-in "software": animal drives, racial memories, instinctual fears and joys, etc. So maybe when a human is The Ground, attributes are generated from The Ground being filtered through this ancient and very powerful organ.


If the Ground is beyond attributes, there can be no feeling of being the Ground. That would be to attribute something to it.
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Re: Bliss - Beyond Pleasure and Pain

Postby rachMiel » Sun Aug 26, 2012 6:06 am

the key master wrote:
rachMiel wrote:If The Ground is beyond attributes, then the feeling of being The Ground might also be beyond attributes.

On the other hand, we have this ancient brain that comes equipped with lots of built-in "software": animal drives, racial memories, instinctual fears and joys, etc. So maybe when a human is The Ground, attributes are generated from The Ground being filtered through this ancient and very powerful organ.


If the Ground is beyond attributes, there can be no feeling of being the Ground. That would be to attribute something to it.

Nice.
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Re: Bliss - Beyond Pleasure and Pain

Postby smiileyjen101 » Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:18 am

You've hit on something interesting Rick, bliss is the energy state that we really are beyond, above, below, inside, outside, up, down all around the 'layering' of form. We 'read' it as an absence of the form layering but experience it not as 'nothing' or 'less than' sense, its a 'more than' sense - albeit described in words in terms of the absence of .. the influences of form layering that cloaks who we really are by its vibrational density/resonance - and who we really are IS the bliss.

Interestingly I'm at a writer's conference - Hay House - and yesterday was the first time I've been exposed to a lady called Doreen Virtue who does a lot of stuff with angels etc Anyway she was talking about one of her books that shows the note or sound value of words in a visual form - you know when on tv the forensic lab folk are doing voice identifying stuff and you see the recorded pattern in voice recognition - and it shows the low frequency and high frequency sounds in wave form visually on a computer screen. So Doreen says her and her son were looking at the vibrational frequency of different words and statements - in the nuances of the power of attraction by the resonance of our thoughts and words.

I kinda liked this bit because it 'shows' in a scientific validating way what we 'know'. In this book she has all these 'sound pictures' and she showed examples of high and low frequency elements of different words and phrases.

BLISS is one of the strongest and highest frequency words that she showed.
According to her experiments there is only one word stronger - interestingly it's PEACE.

When we utter or think these (or any) words we bring their resonance into form.

(As an aside given that the focus went to audio-visuals -I have an acutely 'trained' ear and she sounds, her speaking voice sounds exactly like the singer Cher - her tone, tempo, modulation, breath spacings, laugh tones, petering out rates - all of them perfectly Cher - if I were a forensic lab person I would be checking out her voice and Cher's voice.

I kept trying to see if her long blonde hair was a wig, to see if she has black hair underneath it :lol:

I wanted to hear her sing!)
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Re: Bliss - Beyond Pleasure and Pain

Postby Rick » Mon Aug 27, 2012 3:43 pm

smiileyjen101 wrote: We 'read' it as an absence of the form layering but experience it not as 'nothing' or 'less than' sense, its a 'more than' sense - albeit described in words in terms of the absence of ..


I think that is right Jen. It appears to be kinda like how health and vitality might be defined as the absence of sensations (symptoms) once the flu has passed...a kind of blessed state of "no sensation" that leaves us ready, willing and able to embrace life fully.
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Re: Bliss - Beyond Pleasure and Pain

Postby smiileyjen101 » Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:57 am

I think that is right Jen. It appears to be kinda like how health and vitality might be defined as the absence of sensations (symptoms) once the flu has passed...a kind of blessed state of "no sensation" that leaves us ready, willing and able to embrace life fully.


Ah yes! But do you see / hear how the 'no' part of it resonates too?

See I'm talking about BEING life fully and you're talking about being 'ready, willing and able to'.

So many who are looking for enlightenment outside of who they really are are soooooo 'ready, willing and able to' but aren't BEING it.

At this conference another speaker - you can imagine knowing me I have pulled in the 'vibrational' parts of each of the speakers that are resonating together, so forgive me, I'm still attributing - Suze Orman told a tale about being at a retreat in India with a nun that was a saint and there learned that Bliss (my take on the key to life) is -

when you can be as happy (bliss aware) in your sorrow as in your joy - then you have the key to life.
Suze Orman


Don Miguel Ruez (the Four Agreements) said the word Equilibrium - what a wonderful, wonderful word! He said it in the notion that -
Love is an equalibrium of gratitude and generosity.
Don MIguel Ruez


I realised equilibrium is THE word for my straddling, balancing with depth - the seriously-funny, wisely-naive seeming polarities that you can be in depth expression rather than width (polarity swinging) expression.

Put these together - put it all together the bliss doesn't give a rats whether you have the cold it is still there just as vibrant, just as real, just as pulsing, just as joyful... just as just as - it's not waiting for or excluded by any thing, any circumstance of our existence or experiences.

That's probably why I get irked by the you do not exist, you are not really here, your experiences are not real blah blah blah - you are always here if you know who you really are you can see / know / feel that and BE that who you really are ALWAYS - not ready, willing and able - but BEING.

And in knowing that and being that awarely - you will always - be as happy in your sorrow or your joy
and you will find equilibrium in all of your experiences of the nuances of contrasts in the separate perspectives of things that are all one. You will see no contradictions, only perspectives of a thing; you will see no enemy, only expressions of a thing; you will see no 'nothing'; only everything.

rant over - I really had to get that off my chest Bliss demands it. :P

Before you go, read this again, in this light -

These two are suggesting that Bliss - or the Joy of Being as some call it - is not a happy or ecstatic emotion or feeling, but rather, a kind of unburdened, light-hearted evenness or openness as the natural state of Oneness,
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Re: Bliss - Beyond Pleasure and Pain

Postby Rick » Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:14 am

smiileyjen101 wrote:Ah yes! But do you see / hear how the 'no' part of it resonates too?


I do. Below is a note to a friend telling why I started this thread.

"For the last year I have found myself with far more inner peace and stillness than I've ever had, but none of the great joy and overflowing happiness I've heard bliss described as. Frankly for most of my life I've dismissed the idea of bliss as silly new-age non-sense. But as I've looked at my interior in the last several months it made me curious to know if I was missing something becuase I feel quite ordinary and well, I "feel" little to nothing at all most of the time, even as there is a kind of openness to everything that flows with life, and a light-heartedness that sees the humorous side of almost everything. But recently stumbling upon the story I posted about bliss, and the memory it provoked, which was like an answer to my unspoken question, I feel that I am not missing anything at all. None of this is to say that emotions do not arise, those have and do, but they pass, giving way to the underlying peace and stillness again. But it did make me curious to hear what others might have to say about it."

There is an alert, aliveness to in the sense of I Am, but it seems that it has nothing to do with any kind of emotional state at all.
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Re: Bliss - Beyond Pleasure and Pain

Postby smiileyjen101 » Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:16 am

I'm in a wee bit of a rush, but I need to tell you Rick - once you 'know' what it is you can turn it up, or down, at will.

As Neale Donald Walsch so beautifully said of - and I don't want to start a debate about free will here - free will is merely an acceptance that for each other and for the 'all' the notion is -

I would not presume to answer for you.

When anything flows through us in awareness we are always able to answer the questions in our divinity awareness, our greatest awareness - for ourselves, within our awareness of our response abilities and the choices within that. No choice is wrong, it just brings a different experience.

Whether you turn it (life flowing) up, or turn it (life flowing) down is absolutely your choice.
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Re: Bliss - Beyond Pleasure and Pain

Postby smiileyjen101 » Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:21 am

Oh crap... life... I was just closing down things open on my puter and this, that I hadn't seen yet I googled Don Miguel Ruiz because he spoke at this conference and I hadn't heard of his work -
This was 'up'
The Four Agreements are:

1. Be Impeccable with your Word: Speak with integrity. Say only what you mean. Avoid using the Word to speak against yourself or to gossip about others. Use the power of your Word in the direction of truth and love.

2. Don’t Take Anything Personally
Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a projection of their own reality, their own dream. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won’t be the victim of needless suffering.

3. Don’t Make Assumptions
Find the courage to ask questions and to express what you really want. Communicate with others as clearly as you can to avoid misunderstandings, sadness and drama. With just this one agreement, you can completely transform your life.

4. Always Do Your Best
Your best is going to change from moment to moment; it will be different when you are healthy as opposed to sick. Under any circumstance, simply do your best, and you will avoid self-judgment, self-abuse, and regret.

http://www.toltecspirit.com/


God I do love LIFE!!! See ya!! I gotta catch a plane!
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Re: Bliss - Beyond Pleasure and Pain

Postby Rick » Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:43 pm

smiileyjen101 wrote:I'm in a wee bit of a rush, but I need to tell you Rick - once you 'know' what it is you can turn it up, or down, at will

Whether you turn it (life flowing) up, or turn it (life flowing) down is absolutely your choice.


Hey Jen, I don't know about any of that because that has not been my experience. I have come from inner turmoil in the early years to a growing, steady, inner peace as I age. Maybe it's the "peace of God that transcends all understanding" spoken of in the bible. I don't know. I just know it is.
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Re: Bliss - Beyond Pleasure and Pain

Postby smiileyjen101 » Wed Aug 29, 2012 12:06 pm

If you are happy in every moment - emotion-filled or emotion-less, Rick, what question could there possibly be to answer?
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Re: Bliss - Beyond Pleasure and Pain

Postby Rick » Wed Aug 29, 2012 1:44 pm

smiileyjen101 wrote:If you are happy in every moment - emotion-filled or emotion-less, Rick, what question could there possibly be to answer?


In a nutshell, the personal question long before making this post was "is feeling normal, normal?" Since that is essentially my experience, then I have to say, yes. The posts above about bliss being something that is beyond pleasure and suffering tended to add to my assessment that the experience of I Am is less about ecstatic joy than it is about knowingly and contentedly feeling alive and present. I was curious to hear what others had to say about it.
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Re: Bliss - Beyond Pleasure and Pain

Postby smiileyjen101 » Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:47 am

There are likely 7 billion living perspectives and many more past perspectives on what is 'normal?' But you are right, the answer is always yes - whatever 'feeling normal' is for you, is normal.

Where 'social norms' (normal in a given group) and personal 'normal' (the yes above) differ from each other or from others', one may seek to compare. Acknowledging all 'normals' as valid from that perspective allow for the large experiential perspectives of, and responses to, creation in action.

This is why/how it is known in the light that there is/are no 'wrong' choice/s, there is only a 'different' experience.

If you are 'normally' xyz and you feel the niggle of creation in motion 'shifting' you or bumping up against you, the choices in responding are all again yours to choose - with no choice being wrong, just bringing a different experience. In the 'what you resist, persists' line of thinking 'resistance' to this nudging will either bounce off your energy of clearly saying 'no thank you' to an opportunity of experience, or keep knocking at your door until you do answer one way or the other. If you do this in awareness it has a 'different' quality of the experience, than if you do this in unawareness, either way the 'doing' is yours.

So if you want to experience the depth of emotions and opportunities of experience without taking it 'personally' the choice and the opportunities are there. If you do not want to experience the depth of emotions and experiences, in fear that you will not handle or enjoy them, or in the mere fact that you choose not to for whatever reason you will establish, that choice is also there. It's in this way that the choice to turn life (opportunities to experience who you really are, within this world/dimension of form) up, or down, is absolutely yours to make in every single moment of your existence. Up in this moment, down in that moment, in motion in this moment, still in this moment - regardless of what is going on around you - it could be peace amid chaos, high energy creation amid stillness - it's all just a dance of creation by our awareness and perspectives.

Sometimes it's like saying, please explain your perspective of peanut butter, without using the words peanut, or butter.
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Re: Bliss - Beyond Pleasure and Pain

Postby Webwanderer » Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:21 pm

Rick wrote:
smiileyjen101 wrote:If you are happy in every moment - emotion-filled or emotion-less, Rick, what question could there possibly be to answer?


In a nutshell, the personal question long before making this post was "is feeling normal, normal?" Since that is essentially my experience, then I have to say, yes. The posts above about bliss being something that is beyond pleasure and suffering tended to add to my assessment that the experience of I Am is less about ecstatic joy than it is about knowingly and contentedly feeling alive and present. I was curious to hear what others had to say about it.


Here's my sense of this topic: Once a degree of awakening has occurred, and thought is recognized as a potential pseudo identity, there is a general sense of peace that becomes one's basic state of being. There is a sense of freedom that is more than satisfying. Then there is a sense of expansion born of revelation when new insight comes into awareness as a result of an opening to Source energy.

The flow of Source energy into conscious being is a peak experience that can well be described as joy. It's not so much that new thoughts come in, although that can certainly be present as well, but it's the feeling of contact and oneness with that Energy that one recognizes as their very own essence. It's the light that transcends the darkness of limiting mind. And it's available to anyone open and willing to feel their way to it. Words are unnecessary but can be helpful in focusing one's attention.

Even more valuable is breath, which in its original Latin is called spirit. Inspire, means in-breathe. A structured, but simple, breathing technique, along with a focus on opening to genuine truth in being, can lift one's experience to wonderful heights of joy. I've often encourage members of this forum to explore it for themselves. Five to ten deep connected breaths while attention is focused on Source is usually sufficient. Then every couple of minutes breathe it back up and stay in a wonderful state of connection and alignment for as long as you want.

This has been and continues to be my experience. Interestingly, The Gospel of Thomas is much about breath as a path to expanding consciousness. SandyJoy placed a link in this forum to a recent work on the subject.

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