Tolle Compares The Secret with The Power of Now

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Re: Tolle Compares The Secret with The Power of Now

Postby the key master » Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:16 pm

ww said,
Your statement, my statement, KM's statement, all are examples of statements made from our unique perspectives based on our underlying beliefs.


Based on our underlying "conditioning". What logic are you using to make the leap from underlying conditioning to underlying beliefs? In terms of your understanding, do you distinguish the two? Sometimes I think that distinction is helpful for folks.

Are you completely free of beliefs about life? Is anyone here on this forum so free?


Everyone actually is, or there's no one to be free in the first place, depending on context hehe . It's not like there's actually a person to believe certain things. The person is an effect of beliefs, not a cause. Something which doesn't exist can't cause anything. Right?

KM would likely call it delusional to imagine oneself so beyond the reality of being human.


Imagination imagining "it" is beyond the realm of imagination is absolutely delusional. That's mind identification, or mind thinking it can transcend itself. Its not like the imagination is actually an entity imagining things. That's just more imagination, more delusion.
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Re: Tolle Compares The Secret with The Power of Now

Postby tod » Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:04 am

the key master wrote:
ww said,
Your statement, my statement, KM's statement, all are examples of statements made from our unique perspectives based on our underlying beliefs.


Based on our underlying "conditioning". What logic are you using to make the leap from underlying conditioning to underlying beliefs? In terms of your understanding, do you distinguish the two? Sometimes I think that distinction is helpful for folks.


Belief may be held unconsciously or consciously. Held belief is often called conditioning.

ww said: Are you completely free of beliefs about life? Is anyone here on this forum so free?


tkm said: Everyone actually is, or there's no one to be free in the first place, depending on context hehe . It's not like there's actually a person to believe certain things. The person is an effect of beliefs, not a cause. Something which doesn't exist can't cause anything. Right?


Thinking one is a person may be the effect of either conscious or unconscious belief.

ww said: KM would likely call it delusional to imagine oneself so beyond the reality of being human.


tkm said: Imagination imagining "it" is beyond the realm of imagination is absolutely delusional. That's mind identification, or mind thinking it can transcend itself. Its not like the imagination is actually an entity imagining things. That's just more imagination, more delusion.


There is a distinction between conscious and unconscious imagination/belief. Conscious imagination/belief is not delusional.
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Re: Tolle Compares The Secret with The Power of Now

Postby smiileyjen101 » Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:30 am

Conscious imagination/belief is not delusional.

And in balance the competing influence would be what?

It's not a case of either/or having more or less validity, its a case of 'and' in order to have contextual balance.
We are contextually being human and we are energy in motion at a particular vibrational range.

I could tell you I have a pet rhino, which clearly isn't true. But within the context of everything being ONE and the possibility of some other human having a pet rhino, well it would appear I do have a pet rhino.


Contextually as an individuated human being, no you don't and it's delusional to link that you do.

Intellectually and psychologically the resonance of saying that you do resonates as 'not true'.

That it might be true for another is irrelevant to your individuated experience unless you engage on an energy level and 'share' vibrational energies over it, or,
if you feel and feed sense of lack,
or a sense of fear,
or a sense of not being complete without it,
or a sense of hating another who does have,
or a sense of wonder for another who does have a pet rhino

.... and create a motion of energy surrounding that factor in your experience. Yes in this instance we all know it's all make believe at that contextual layer (although KM I can well imagine little you sitting at the end of your bed wishing for a pet rhino... :P )- but people do create these energy cycles in motion knowingly or unknowingly by their thoughts and actions, from their individuated human perspectives.

The energy expressed, be it want, fear, expectation, jealousy, anger, joy, rage ... whatever... is what is real and experienced and as such flows into the equilibrium - "the condition of a system in which all competing influences are balanced, in a wide variety of contexts", and in doing so will create a pathway to, or more accurately 'find', its own oppositional (balancing) influences of energy in motion.

^That is the 'process' of attraction and repulsion that the loa speaks to.
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Re: Tolle Compares The Secret with The Power of Now

Postby Webwanderer » Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:00 am

tod wrote:
the key master wrote:
ww said,
Your statement, my statement, KM's statement, all are examples of statements made from our unique perspectives based on our underlying beliefs.


Based on our underlying "conditioning". What logic are you using to make the leap from underlying conditioning to underlying beliefs? In terms of your understanding, do you distinguish the two? Sometimes I think that distinction is helpful for folks.


Belief may be held unconsciously or consciously. Held belief is often called conditioning.

Clearly seen - and in the context that was written. What is conditioned when one refers to conditioning if not one's beliefs?

WW
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Re: Tolle Compares The Secret with The Power of Now

Postby the key master » Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:55 pm

tod wrote:
the key master wrote:
ww said,
Your statement, my statement, KM's statement, all are examples of statements made from our unique perspectives based on our underlying beliefs.


Based on our underlying "conditioning". What logic are you using to make the leap from underlying conditioning to underlying beliefs? In terms of your understanding, do you distinguish the two? Sometimes I think that distinction is helpful for folks.


Belief may be held unconsciously or consciously. Held belief is often called conditioning.

ww said: Are you completely free of beliefs about life? Is anyone here on this forum so free?


tkm said: Everyone actually is, or there's no one to be free in the first place, depending on context hehe . It's not like there's actually a person to believe certain things. The person is an effect of beliefs, not a cause. Something which doesn't exist can't cause anything. Right?


Thinking one is a person may be the effect of either conscious or unconscious belief.

ww said: KM would likely call it delusional to imagine oneself so beyond the reality of being human.


tkm said: Imagination imagining "it" is beyond the realm of imagination is absolutely delusional. That's mind identification, or mind thinking it can transcend itself. Its not like the imagination is actually an entity imagining things. That's just more imagination, more delusion.


There is a distinction between conscious and unconscious imagination/belief. Conscious imagination/belief is not delusional.



Yah, well, it would be kinda hard to consciously believe something which isn't true.
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Re: Tolle Compares The Secret with The Power of Now

Postby the key master » Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:03 pm

smiileyjen101 wrote:
Conscious imagination/belief is not delusional.

And in balance the competing influence would be what?

It's not a case of either/or having more or less validity, its a case of 'and' in order to have contextual balance.
We are contextually being human and we are energy in motion at a particular vibrational range.



I don't mind supplying contextual balance. In fact, its in the supplying of that balance that we often see beliefs getting challenged, which can be a good thing. All experience is contextually dualistic, and this context is entirely imaginary.

I could tell you I have a pet rhino, which clearly isn't true. But within the context of everything being ONE and the possibility of some other human having a pet rhino, well it would appear I do have a pet rhino.


Contextually as an individuated human being, no you don't and it's delusional to link that you do.
.... and create a motion of energy surrounding that factor in your experience. Yes in this instance we all know it's all make believe at that contextual layer (although KM I can well imagine little you sitting at the end of your bed wishing for a pet rhino... :P )-


Oh, c'mon, am i the only one?!

but people do create these energy cycles in motion knowingly or unknowingly by their thoughts and actions, from their individuated human perspectives.


If its "by their thoughts and actions", I would say people don't create anything.

The energy expressed, be it want, fear, expectation, jealousy, anger, joy, rage ... whatever... is what is real and experienced and as such flows into the equilibrium - "the condition of a system in which all competing influences are balanced, in a wide variety of contexts", and in doing so will create a pathway to, or more accurately 'find', its own oppositional (balancing) influences of energy in motion.

^That is the 'process' of attraction and repulsion that the loa speaks to.


My word lawyer has the day off, but I don't think I have a problem with any of that :mrgreen:
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Re: Tolle Compares The Secret with The Power of Now

Postby the key master » Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:14 pm

Clearly seen - and in the context that was written. What is conditioned when one refers to conditioning if not one's beliefs?

WW


The mind is conditioned, the thingy which we talk about as existing in one context, and not existing in another. Beliefs, OTOH, make up part of the conditioning. You can be conditioned to imagine a tasty cheeseburger at the local pub, and then do what you can to manifest that; the belief that you are the one conditioned to imagine that cheeseburger, is optional. The "one" who imagines things isn't here, "locally". The delusion that there is a person doing that imagining is what can be noticed, and worked with. In contrast, even the belief that there is some "non local" consciousness creating form isn't true either. Delusional makeups vary from peep to peep.
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Re: Tolle Compares The Secret with The Power of Now

Postby Rick » Sun Sep 09, 2012 4:00 pm

Webwanderer wrote:
Rick, one can live in presence awareness with their belief systems.
WW


That is a contradiction.

Presence implies the dropping of all attachments, including beliefs.

Tolle says ""Who you are requires no belief. In fact, every belief is an obstacle" to realizing this truth.

Presence implies a direct perception of present reality, moment by moment, completely uncolored by past or future, beliefs or ideals.

And what does direct perception see in the now? Facts...just the facts seen objectively before it. The "what is" of the moment unprejudiced by past or future.
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Re: Tolle Compares The Secret with The Power of Now

Postby Webwanderer » Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:27 pm

Rick wrote:
Webwanderer wrote:
Rick, one can live in presence awareness with their belief systems.
WW


That is a contradiction.

Presence implies the dropping of all attachments, including beliefs.

Tolle says ""Who you are requires no belief. In fact, every belief is an obstacle" to realizing this truth.

Presence implies a direct perception of present reality, moment by moment, completely uncolored by past or future, beliefs or ideals.

And what does direct perception see in the now? Facts...just the facts seen objectively before it. The "what is" of the moment unprejudiced by past or future.


I don't disagree (well, except for the contradiction part). And when we are settled with our new found momentary clarity, we will get in our car, go to work, or the grocery store, or visit the relatives, and interact with others based on the myriad of what we believe to be true. We live through our beliefs as a practical function of day to day life. The moment we make a declarative statement about anything to anyone is a declaration of belief. "That's true" is a statement of belief.

Tolle says ""Who you are requires no belief. In fact, every belief is an obstacle" to realizing this truth.

You made this quote because you believe that Tolle wrote it, and you believe it points to a truth - yet you weren't there and have no direct knowledge of it's origin. Whether or not you believe correctly is irrelevant. The issue is you are taking it on faith because direct knowledge of its writing/telling is unavailable to you. It feels right so you have adopted it as part of your understanding. This, like so many things in life, are part of our working belief system.

You wrote this post based on the beliefs you hold. It matters not their origin, either conditioned or through insight. Some combination of events/information formed a perspective that you have adopted as reality. It may even be true. It's likely however, that however you perceive/believe life to be, there is greater understanding yet to be gained. Consider how you see life now. Is this not an evolution from some previous perspective/belief that you once held? Is what you hold to be true now (believe) the end all of your potential understanding? Not a chance.

I believe that what I believe now is not the whole story of being. That belief works for me in remaining open to ever greater clarity as to the nature of life. Aha moments of insight are steps forward, not the last word. This limited conscious window of perception we experience in this human expression is but a fragment of what is possible, what lies ahead in the unfoldment of conscious being.

Looking back at where I've come from in perspective on life, to where I am now, is a clear indicator that growth in understanding is possible, even certain. Seeing the truth of this is clear evidence that the beliefs we hold at any given point are just temporary indicators of our current understanding. Are beliefs blockages to growth? Sure, they can be - especially if one becomes locked into them as the final truth. But they may also be just resting points that allow us to explore and interact with life through our best current understanding until the next step forward becomes clear.

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Re: Tolle Compares The Secret with The Power of Now

Postby the key master » Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:49 pm

rick saidm
Presence implies the dropping of all attachments, including beliefs.

Tolle says ""Who you are requires no belief. In fact, every belief is an obstacle" to realizing this truth.


The mind which believes things isn't anyone to begin with, literally. Within the context of being that mind (which you aren't), believing you have a name, a house, a combination to a safe with a money stack in it under your bed, is not in and of itself a cause of suffering. It just so happens that many of the beliefs held by mind serve as protective housing for unconscious thought and emotion, which is precisely what drives suffering. Seeing through those beliefs leads to the end of the idea that there was something to see through.
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Re: Tolle Compares The Secret with The Power of Now

Postby the key master » Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:57 pm

ww said,
I don't disagree (well, except for the contradiction part). And when we are settled with our new found momentary clarity, we will get in our car, go to work, or the grocery store, or visit the relatives, and interact with others based on the myriad of what we believe to be true. We live through our beliefs as a practical function of day to day life.


Within the context of being the mind, yes, sure. There is another context to consider here...You are not your mind.

The moment we make a declarative statement about anything to anyone is a declaration of belief. "That's true" is a statement of belief.


Saying every declarative statement is a statement of belief is a leap in logic and isn't ultimately true. Does not a "statement of belief" imply someone who believes it? And considering what is making statements isn't anyone to begin with in another context (You are not your mind), isn't it true that within a certain context, not all statements are statements of belief?
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Re: Tolle Compares The Secret with The Power of Now

Postby Webwanderer » Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:03 pm

the key master wrote:
ww said,
I don't disagree (well, except for the contradiction part). And when we are settled with our new found momentary clarity, we will get in our car, go to work, or the grocery store, or visit the relatives, and interact with others based on the myriad of what we believe to be true. We live through our beliefs as a practical function of day to day life.

Within the context of being the mind, yes, sure. There is another context to consider here...You are not your mind.

Agreed. This is not new in this discussion, and for most of the participants it's a given. That being said, in this world, in this present conscious experience, we live through the mind. You cannot communicate without the mind. You cannot interact with arising conditions without the mind.

Saying every declarative statement is a statement of belief is a leap in logic and isn't ultimately true. Does not a "statement of belief" imply someone who believes it?

Sure, but I don't have a problem with that. It's you who seems in denial of self. Context matters, so lets not rehash thought identification as being, or not being, a real separate person. I refer to self as self-aware conscious being. Regardless of the imaginings conscious being may or may not have temporarily adopted, it's unique aware consciousness that matters.

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Re: Tolle Compares The Secret with The Power of Now

Postby the key master » Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:54 pm

ww said,
Agreed. This is not new in this discussion, and for most of the participants it's a given. That being said, in this world, in this present conscious experience, we live through the mind. You cannot communicate without the mind. You cannot interact with arising conditions without the mind.


Ok.

Sure, but I don't have a problem with that. It's you who seems in denial of self.



One cannot be in denial of something which doesn't exist in the first place. I've discussed the context of being a mind or person extensively. All that "mechanics" talk, what you think that is dubs?

Context matters, so lets not rehash thought identification as being, or not being, a real separate person.


I don't know what that means.

Regardless of the imaginings conscious being may or may not have temporarily adopted, it's unique aware consciousness that matters.


It sounds like "conscious being" is just a term you use to identify the human being you're appearing as and the thoughts you seem to be having. Maybe they ain't 'your' thoughts, and maybe "consciousness" isn't unique to anybody. What appears in consciousness is unique, and it ain't you. That's not denying self, that's addressing the delusion of being a separate appearance. There is a difference.
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Re: Tolle Compares The Secret with The Power of Now

Postby smiileyjen101 » Sun Sep 09, 2012 11:28 pm

jen said:(although KM I can well imagine little you sitting at the end of your bed wishing for a pet rhino... )-


keymaster said: Oh, c'mon, am i the only one?!

Well, mine was a dragon... but I 'know' what you mean :D

Jen: but people do create these energy cycles in motion knowingly or unknowingly by their thoughts and actions, from their individuated human perspectives.


If its "by their thoughts and actions", I would say people don't create anything.

They create an energy path that provides opportunities to experience by linking into that energy flow. Not as in sole creation no, it is co-creation but without their participation it wouldn't occur/manifest either. It's the opportunities to experience that whatever says YES to.

There is a discussion somewhere on one of the Abraham-Hicks videos that speaks about the 'quality' or frequency strength of the thoughts and actions that do kind of attract the 'whatever's' attention. This is a palpable frequency and when science figures that one out it will make all 'advances' thus far pale in comparison - electricity, solar power, nuclear power, hydro power have nothing on this one! I can only imagine the mess they could make. We imho, as a species, are not ready for that response ability for the most part. That doesn't mean it's not there any more than electricity was always there. For as long as folks think it's about material things or 'control' they will not see the balance of it in terms of experience.
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Re: Tolle Compares The Secret with The Power of Now

Postby Rick » Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:10 am

Webwanderer wrote:"That's true" is a statement of belief.



As a blanket statement I would call it untrue. Sometimes we say something is true because it's a self evident fact.

In this world of form there are plenty of self evident truths that require simple observation, not belief, to know they are true. The form of my dog will die one day - my father's form is already dead and turned to ashes - yesterday is gone forever - the sky is blue - birds fly - cats meow - fire is hot - what goes up must come down - JFK was shot on Dealey Plaza - what you resist persists - what you try to hold on to you will lose - there are no shadows without light - clinging to your intellectual mind for a sense of self blocks awakening to realization - these are statements of fact.

Webwanderer wrote:
Tolle says ""Who you are requires no belief. In fact, every belief is an obstacle" to realizing this truth.

You made this quote because you believe that Tolle wrote it, and you believe it points to a truth - yet you weren't there and have no direct knowledge of it's origin.


I know (not believe) I read this quote in A New Earth. I've heard Tolle say it himself that he is the author of the book, although I did not see him pen in hand. I take him at his word that he actually wrote it. You can call that a belief or a statement of faith in the mans word, your choice. But you can not say that I have no direct knowledge of the truthfulness of the principle the quote points to.
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