On Krishnamurthi : Fragmentation

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On Krishnamurthi : Fragmentation

Postby Jayakanth » Sat Oct 06, 2012 4:56 pm

Hi guys,

I have a question relating to fragmentation. I was listening to one of krishnamurthi's talks on fear and he talks about how we fragment all of our fears when we try to deal with them. He says we need to understand the whole movement of fear. What is wrong with doing that and is dealing with each particular fear ineffective? Suppose i have a fear of judgement and a fear of not achieving. Cant i just trigger the memories of those fears and be present? Or be present when these fears arise? I cant seem to be conscious to everything that arises. But i am improving.

I find krishnamurthi's talks really mindblowing. Hopefully someone can explain this to me.

Thanks!
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Re: On Krishnamurthi : Fragmentation

Postby Jayakanth » Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:47 pm

Anyone?
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Re: On Krishnamurthi : Fragmentation

Postby karmarider » Tue Oct 16, 2012 9:46 pm

The way I see it, the basic problem is fear. An early fear affects the mind--it affects the entire context of the mind. Our experience of life is through the mind, and so when the mind is off-centered because of the fear, life will feel antagonistic, distant and something to defend. You can certainly work on your specific fears as you suggest, but it's probably more efficient to solve the basic problem rather solve particular consequences of it. Check John Sherman for more--he's pretty clear on this.
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Re: On Krishnamurthi : Fragmentation

Postby rachMiel » Wed Oct 17, 2012 4:32 am

Krishnamurti always looks to the essence, the source.

So, rather than take each instance of fear as a separate case and explore it -- you could spend an entire lifetime doing this! -- he urges us to explore and come to understand the nature of fear itself. Once understood, deeply, in body and mind, fear loses its grip over us. One might notice it arising, thriving (for a while), then dissolving, but one doesn't "buy into" it so much.
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Re: On Krishnamurthi : Fragmentation

Postby rideforever » Wed Oct 17, 2012 9:26 am

If you feel a particular fear and bring presence to it that is very helpful.

But if you continue to work with different fears over time you will see they have the same taste underneath. If you remain sharp you can sense this.

With more experience, and bringing more surrender (melting) to the situation, you will find that one fear was like a wave on the ocean and that more and more you will be able to experience the whole ocean of fear, the whole body of it, the whole movement of energy of it.

With surrender you are allowing the totality of experience to enter you. But it is important to remain sharp, otherwise you will be lost at sea.

As a suggestion, it is possible that when you are practicing presence you are staring at your fear rather than surrendering into it. If you surrender into it you automatically move deeper into it.

This can be painful, of course. And over time you will develop the capacity to hold fast with so much energy pouring through you.

I have also heard that if you bring love to the situation it is also very helpful.

Always remain sharp, don't drift off into a fantasy or dreaminess.
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Re: On Krishnamurthi : Fragmentation

Postby ZenOfchaos » Sat Oct 20, 2012 7:55 am

It's interesting you say this rideforever.

It feels, for a while now, that I've been floating on that ocean of fear. It's been present at all times in the background. I think ET mentions something like this. The constant unease.

Perhaps I need to surrender to it all? Or autolysise it? Not sure. It's been in the background for months and I'd like to know what is needed on this level.
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Re: On Krishnamurthi : Fragmentation

Postby karmarider » Sat Oct 20, 2012 2:34 pm

ZenOfchaos wrote:It feels, for a while now, that I've been floating on that ocean of fear. It's been present at all times in the background. I think ET mentions something like this. The constant unease.


This constant unease I think is the basic problem. It is the basic fear of life which comes to us early and affects everything in the mind and which most people can feel as the contstant of hum of anxiety inside.

Perhaps I need to surrender to it all? Or autolysise it? Not sure. It's been in the background for months and I'd like to know what is needed on this level.


John Sherman says the technique of looking at you (looking at the sense of I am) elminates the basic context of fear. I think he is right.
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Re: On Krishnamurthi : Fragmentation

Postby tod » Sun Oct 21, 2012 12:32 am

It appears that John Sherman's "looking at the sense of I am" is not essentially different than surrender as well described by Rideforever up there^.

It seems that the sense of being someone - that can be damaged, hurt, pained, and the like - is the cause of the unease/anxiety/fear. As I look at the sense of myself, what can be seen are an ongoing series of sensations. And a separation can be seen between each sensation and 'what' is looking at it - ie, between self and sensation.

As I become more familiar with this separation it is noticed that it is not essentially any different to surrender, with self being so utterly 'transparent' that there is nothing to surrender (and thus 'everything' is 'gained').
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Re: On Krishnamurthi : Fragmentation

Postby Jayakanth » Mon Oct 22, 2012 12:34 pm

rachMiel wrote:Krishnamurti always looks to the essence, the source.

So, rather than take each instance of fear as a separate case and explore it -- you could spend an entire lifetime doing this! -- he urges us to explore and come to understand the nature of fear itself. Once understood, deeply, in body and mind, fear loses its grip over us. One might notice it arising, thriving (for a while), then dissolving, but one doesn't "buy into" it so much.


Ok. Let's say I fear when I don't get a text message back from someone. I fear when the person takes quite long to reply my text. I am psychologically dependent on the text replies and I run mental movies and put myself in a victim role when i dont get text messaged back. Underlying all this is the fear of loss. Now this has manifested itself thru my psychological dependency. In order to tackle this problem, as Krishnamurti suggested, u cant just work on removing the psychological dependency from the text messages. U have to look at psychological dependency in its entirety. Otherwise, we are just curing the symptoms while not looking at the main problem. So if we were to look at fear totally and understand it, then the text message anxiety will disappear.

Now, what happens when i do experience the anxiety? I suppose i just have to be present to it. But, from experience i realize that this is quite hard. Its very subtle, but there is resistance to it. In my mind, i'm like " I thought i took care of this problem the other time. Why is this here? "

Any advice and comments?
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Re: On Krishnamurthi : Fragmentation

Postby rideforever » Mon Oct 22, 2012 12:45 pm

Yes I have some advice.

Take a very close look into the faces of the people you meet. People you see on the street. Look at the desperateness. Look at how everything they do is about hiding their fears and insecurities, look at how the whole world is like this.

A mother has a child to cover up her problems, people eat and drink to cover up their lives, they shop to hide.

People are hiding, and they are in pain.

Take a close look at the next face you see. What is really written on that face.

When you see the desperate situation, you will be prepared to work harder.
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Re: On Krishnamurthi : Fragmentation

Postby rachMiel » Mon Oct 22, 2012 10:14 pm

Jayakanth wrote:
rachMiel wrote:Krishnamurti always looks to the essence, the source.

So, rather than take each instance of fear as a separate case and explore it -- you could spend an entire lifetime doing this! -- he urges us to explore and come to understand the nature of fear itself. Once understood, deeply, in body and mind, fear loses its grip over us. One might notice it arising, thriving (for a while), then dissolving, but one doesn't "buy into" it so much.

Ok. Let's say I fear when I don't get a text message back from someone. I fear when the person takes quite long to reply my text. I am psychologically dependent on the text replies and I run mental movies and put myself in a victim role when i dont get text messaged back. Underlying all this is the fear of loss.

Take care in reaching a quick and facile conclusion for what's going on. If you name/define it, you pigeonhole it, and run the risk of being closed to its actuality. How about just: "Underlying this is fear."

Now this has manifested itself thru my psychological dependency. In order to tackle this problem, as Krishnamurti suggested, u cant just work on removing the psychological dependency from the text messages. U have to look at psychological dependency in its entirety. Otherwise, we are just curing the symptoms while not looking at the main problem. So if we were to look at fear totally and understand it, then the text message anxiety will disappear.

Sounds about right. :-)

Now, what happens when i do experience the anxiety? I suppose i just have to be present to it. But, from experience i realize that this is quite hard. Its very subtle, but there is resistance to it. In my mind, i'm like " I thought i took care of this problem the other time. Why is this here? "

I think that's what Krishnamurti would have said, yes: When the anxiety arises, observe it without judgment ("This is bad! I shouldn't feel this!") or comparison ("Every time this has happened to me, I've felt awful ... so I'm probably going to feel awful again!"). Let it arise, have its life, then fade out. Or, if you are exploring this anxiety in order to understand it fully (not to "fix" it, just to understand its workings), keep it in focus, inquire into it, feel it ... again (and this is key!) without judgment.

And yes: It's VERY hard! Everyone struggles with non-judgmental awareness, especially when the awareness brings pain, which would probably be the case with your anxiety example. But it's worth the struggle, I think.
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Re: On Krishnamurthi : Fragmentation

Postby Jayakanth » Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:12 pm

rideforever wrote:If you feel a particular fear and bring presence to it that is very helpful.

But if you continue to work with different fears over time you will see they have the same taste underneath. If you remain sharp you can sense this.

With more experience, and bringing more surrender (melting) to the situation, you will find that one fear was like a wave on the ocean and that more and more you will be able to experience the whole ocean of fear, the whole body of it, the whole movement of energy of it.

With surrender you are allowing the totality of experience to enter you. But it is important to remain sharp, otherwise you will be lost at sea.

As a suggestion, it is possible that when you are practicing presence you are staring at your fear rather than surrendering into it. If you surrender into it you automatically move deeper into it.

This can be painful, of course. And over time you will develop the capacity to hold fast with so much energy pouring through you.

I have also heard that if you bring love to the situation it is also very helpful.

Always remain sharp, don't drift off into a fantasy or dreaminess.


Wad do u mean by bring more surrender? Is there such a thing as more surrender?

U said that over time, we will develop the capacity to surrender. should we think of surrender as a skill that we can practice which will invariably involve time? Does this contradict the teachings of tolle?
He does say s practice surrender but what happens when we use this as technique?

From my own practice, i would say that i have increased my ability to be present over time.

And when we say full attention, there has to be no centre. No 'me' trying to give attention to my fear. Well, this is quite hard isnt it? From my obsevation, the 'me' comes in.
So over time when we practice this, does the 'me' disappear? And is this state where the 'me' is not , a state which we are conditioned into?
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Re: On Krishnamurthi : Fragmentation

Postby rideforever » Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:26 pm

The word "surrender" is an indicator of the approach to bring. It is possible to "stare" at fear, or "stare" at the present moment, rather than "embody" it, or "surrender" to it.

You can "stare" at fear ... as a way to avoid it,as a way to avoid feeling it, or avoiding being it. That gives no results.

Surrender is to accept it, to yield to reality.

Always bring as much "surrender" as is possible now; as you learn more about your self then that further piece you will be able to surrender. The greater your awareness of your self, the more of your self you can surrender. If you don't know your self, there is nothing you can surrender.
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Re: On Krishnamurthi : Fragmentation

Postby Mathew Kalavany » Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:02 am

Fragmentation happens instantly when a fear arise.Consider, why we want to stop fear.Isnt it because we are afraid of fear? This is fragmentation.Whenever a fear arise,a fear of the fear also arise.Our all attempts to end the fear will be based on this secondary fear which is far more powerfull than the original one.It is invisible,too.Any result of our actions will be a strengthening of the fear.Wen fear come,dont hesitate.Be totally afraid.Then the secondary fear wont come.Then fear will be a differnt experience.An ineresting one.
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Re: On Krishnamurthi : Fragmentation

Postby Jayakanth » Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:46 am

rachMiel wrote:
Jayakanth wrote:
rachMiel wrote:Krishnamurti always looks to the essence, the source.

So, rather than take each instance of fear as a separate case and explore it -- you could spend an entire lifetime doing this! -- he urges us to explore and come to understand the nature of fear itself. Once understood, deeply, in body and mind, fear loses its grip over us. One might notice it arising, thriving (for a while), then dissolving, but one doesn't "buy into" it so much.

Ok. Let's say I fear when I don't get a text message back from someone. I fear when the person takes quite long to reply my text. I am psychologically dependent on the text replies and I run mental movies and put myself in a victim role when i dont get text messaged back. Underlying all this is the fear of loss.

Take care in reaching a quick and facile conclusion for what's going on. If you name/define it, you pigeonhole it, and run the risk of being closed to its actuality. How about just: "Underlying this is fear."

Now this has manifested itself thru my psychological dependency. In order to tackle this problem, as Krishnamurti suggested, u cant just work on removing the psychological dependency from the text messages. U have to look at psychological dependency in its entirety. Otherwise, we are just curing the symptoms while not looking at the main problem. So if we were to look at fear totally and understand it, then the text message anxiety will disappear.

Sounds about right. :-)

Now, what happens when i do experience the anxiety? I suppose i just have to be present to it. But, from experience i realize that this is quite hard. Its very subtle, but there is resistance to it. In my mind, i'm like " I thought i took care of this problem the other time. Why is this here? "

I think that's what Krishnamurti would have said, yes: When the anxiety arises, observe it without judgment ("This is bad! I shouldn't feel this!") or comparison ("Every time this has happened to me, I've felt awful ... so I'm probably going to feel awful again!"). Let it arise, have its life, then fade out. Or, if you are exploring this anxiety in order to understand it fully (not to "fix" it, just to understand its workings), keep it in focus, inquire into it, feel it ... again (and this is key!) without judgment.

And yes: It's VERY hard! Everyone struggles with non-judgmental awareness, especially when the awareness brings pain, which would probably be the case with your anxiety example. But it's worth the struggle, I think.


You said , "Or, if you are exploring this anxiety in order to understand it fully (not to "fix" it, just to understand its workings), keep it in focus, inquire into it, feel it ... again (and this is key!) without judgment."

Isnt this what krishnmaurthi warns about? This process of Analysis?
Wad abt patterns of fear that arise when they are triggered? If i were to explore them, do i delve into myself and call up the past or do i understand the nature of fear itself?
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