Awareness of an action tends to follow, not precede, the act

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Awareness of an action tends to follow, not precede, the act

Postby ashley72 » Sun Nov 11, 2012 12:19 am

1. Julian Jayne would say, Awareness of an action tends to follow, not precede, the action. Awareness of an action bears little or no influence on the outcome. Before one utters a sentence, one is not conscious of being about to utter those specific words.

2. In stark contrast, Eckhart Tolle would expand the meaning of Consciousness/Awareness/Presence.... and say it is all pervading. A non-thing which all things spring from. ALL inclusive & encompassing & preceding all things.

Would of these do you agree or disagree with & why?
Last edited by ashley72 on Sun Nov 11, 2012 3:15 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Awareness of an action tends to follow, not precede, the

Postby ashley72 » Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:22 am

Libet's experiments suggest to some... unconscious brain processes have already taken steps to initiate an action before consciousness is aware of any desire to perform it. Therefore, the causal role of consciousness in volition is all but eliminated, according to this interpretation.

It makes you ponder does Libet's finding offer objective evidence that all conscious experience (consciousness of action) actually follow the action.

Watch video => http://youtu.be/IQ4nwTTmcgs

It would seem from the results in this video that our conscious experience of the decision occurs sometime after the brain function has taken steps to perform the action. Therefore one would could conclude that our conscious experience is actually following the action & not preceding it.

It has been suggested that consciousness is merely a side-effect of neuronal functions, an epiphenomenon of brain states, Libet's experiments are proffered in support of this theory; our reports of conscious instigation of our own acts are, in this view, a mistake of retrospection (means to review events that have already occurred a.k.a delayed self-reflection).

Julian Jaynes would suggest consciousness operates introspectively & retrospectively on objectively observable things. Or, to say it another way, there is nothing in consciousness that is not an analog of something that was in behavior first. Consciousness expanded by creating more and more metaphors and analogies. Ultimately, consciousness is a metaphor-generated model of consciousness.
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Re: Awareness of an action tends to follow, not precede, the

Postby rideforever » Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:10 am

Where these theories fall apart is that there is actually more than 1 type of awareness.

We can be aware of : thoughts, emotions, the body. There are 3 types for you.

So if you can show that 1 awareness (thinking) does not precede an action, it doesn't mean that another awareness does. You activities may be initiated by one of the different centres of awareness.

It is typical of Western Culture to imagine that only thoughts are valid forms of awareness, and ignoring that the body and emotions as valid.


A second area where it falls down, is the possibility that you can change. No matter your awareness now, you might be able to gain a deeper awareness in the future. Meaning you might not be self-aware now, but by certain trainings you can become self-aware.

And in deed this happens on the path, where a deeper awareness is encouraged ... making 4 types of awareness :

1. thoughts
2. emotions
3. the body
4. emptiness


The third area where this falls down is that no matter the levels of awareness that you accept, the entire scheme may be at the behest of a creator, rendering meaning and purpose to life.
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Re: Awareness of an action tends to follow, not precede, the

Postby ashley72 » Sun Nov 11, 2012 11:41 am

It applies equally to the other objects: thoughts, emotions, bodily functions

Awareness of a thought tends to follow, not precede, the thinking.

Awareness of an emotion tends to follow, not precede, the expressing.

Awareness of a bodily sensation tends to follow, not precede, the sensing.
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Re: Awareness of an action tends to follow, not precede, the

Postby rideforever » Sun Nov 11, 2012 12:14 pm

Where does JJ say that ? Do you have any evidence ?

That seems plainly false. The body is aware of itself as it acts. The heart is aware of itself as it acts.
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Re: Awareness of an action tends to follow, not precede, the

Postby ashley72 » Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:50 pm

rideforever wrote:Where does JJ say that ? Do you have any evidence ?

That seems plainly false. The body is aware of itself as it acts. The heart is aware of itself as it acts.


Jaynes defines "consciousness" more narrowly than most philosophers. He didn't believe that our senses had anything to do with consciousness. Otherwise we can say all sorts of insects and small cellular forms have the ability of introspection. Does an embryo in the first stages of cell division have the ability of self-reflection?

Image

Very unlikely as, sensing, thinking, feeling systems of the biological system have not yet been developed, so introspection or retrospection (self-reflection) cannot occur yet. Therefore consciousness is an operation which develops as part of the biological organism that follows these reactive systems. In general terms, it arises in much later stages of development & only because of greater & greater complexity.

Therefore sensations (reactions) occur without the operation of Consciousness. I've only touched on this, Jaynes gave many more powerful examples than this - derived from his detailed studies into the Ecology of life-forms.

Jayne found people typically over-define Consciousness and he gave concrete examples of why people tended to do this.

Here is a good research paper called - "what it's like to be non-conscious"

http://www.academia.edu/223717/What_Is_It_Like_to_Be_Nonconscious_A_Defense_of_Julian_Jaynes
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Re: Awareness of an action tends to follow, not precede, the

Postby snowheight » Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:00 am

ashley72 wrote:1. Julian Jayne would say, Awareness of an action tends to follow, not precede, the action. Awareness of an action bears little or no influence on the outcome. Before one utters a sentence, one is not conscious of being about to utter those specific words.

2. In stark contrast, Eckhart Tolle would expand the meaning of Consciousness/Awareness/Presence.... and say it is all pervading. A non-thing which all things spring from. ALL inclusive & encompassing & preceding all things.

Would of these do you agree or disagree with & why?


uh ... yeah ... guess I gotta go with that Louie-Louie guy out on the Kia-kawahoo Hiway on this one ...
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Re: Awareness of an action tends to follow, not precede, the

Postby rideforever » Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:27 am

Jaynes ... didn't believe that our senses had anything to do with consciousness.

Does an embryo in the first stages of cell division have the ability of self - reflection? Very unlikely as, sensing, thinking, feeling systems of the biological system have not yet been developed, so introspection or retrospection (self - reflection) cannot occur yet.


Okay, so he is saying that senses don't have anything to do with it ... and that embryos are not conscious because they don't have senses.

I don't understand they seem to be opposite ideas ?
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Re: Awareness of an action tends to follow, not precede, the

Postby ashley72 » Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:28 pm

rideforever wrote:
Jaynes ... didn't believe that our senses had anything to do with consciousness.

Does an embryo in the first stages of cell division have the ability of self - reflection? Very unlikely as, sensing, thinking, feeling systems of the biological system have not yet been developed, so introspection or retrospection (self - reflection) cannot occur yet.


Okay, so he is saying that senses don't have anything to do with it ... and that embryos are not conscious because they don't have senses.

I don't understand they seem to be opposite ideas ?


Jaynes theorised that only humans developed Consciousness at a certain stage of complexity.

An embryoic stage is a preconscious stage. The preconscious life is seen in the building up of the organism.

Did you bother to read any of the scientific papers I posted? I was hoping for some more interesting questions or points of contention.... Particularly with your academic background and all. :wink:
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Re: Awareness of an action tends to follow, not precede, the

Postby ashley72 » Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:44 pm

snowheight wrote:uh ... yeah ... guess I gotta go with that Louie-Louie guy out on the Kia-kawahoo Hiway on this one ...


Seems like you're only operating with use of the right-hemisphere these days. Are you willing to donate your unused left-hemisphere to our mate "rider" so he can join in the conversation? :lol:
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Re: Awareness of an action tends to follow, not precede, the

Postby rideforever » Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:57 pm

ashley72 wrote:Jaynes theorised that only humans developed Consciousness at a certain stage of complexity.

An embryoic stage is a preconscious stage. The preconscious life is seen in the building up of the organism.

Did you bother to read any of the scientific papers I posted? I was hoping for some more interesting questions or points of contention.... Particularly with your academic background and all. :wink:


No I didn't read it all ... I saw this fundamental contradiction in your presentation and thought I would mention it to you.

You see, if JJ is saying that an embryo is not consciousness because it has no senses ... and then later says that senses are irrelevant, well that doesn't make any sense.

Does it make sense to you ?
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Re: Awareness of an action tends to follow, not precede, the

Postby tod » Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:02 pm

ashley72 wrote:It makes you ponder does Libet's finding offer objective evidence that all conscious experience (consciousness of action) actually follow the action.


I would say no, because consciousness is aware of this - as you are now - is aware that any being in this apparent world is only apparently doing stuff, but not really doing it.
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Re: Awareness of an action tends to follow, not precede, the

Postby ashley72 » Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:21 pm

riderforever wrote:Does it make sense to you ?


No this is wrong....there is no fundamental contradiction it's an illusion of your mind.

Jaynes says that you need introspection and retrospection for Consciousness. This quality requires not just thinking...but penetrative thinking that can move inwards and outward or forwards & backwards... a kind of mind-space that thinking takes place in. He believed that this ability evolved from a persons mental linguistic scaffolding. This mental scaffolding which actually creates our mind-space comes from the use of metaphor and its tendency to represent or model the physical world & behaviour as a operation for explaining more and more abstract complexity.

An Embryo does not think, the brain has not yet formed. Thinking can only come after the brain has formed. Therefore, an embryo is a preconscious living organism.

A child who has a full array of sensory systems, eyes, ears, nose, skin, tongue & brain by Jaynes theory is still at a preconscious stage of development... Because the infants mind-space has not yet sufficiently developed to allow introspection or retrospection. For consciousness to develop the child will first have to learn language, the use of metaphor operations, which with more & more complexity until a mind-space forms. The child will than have the ability for introspection or retrospection...until this time the child will not suffer anxiety or other mental illness associated with being self-conscious.
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Re: Awareness of an action tends to follow, not precede, the

Postby ashley72 » Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:33 pm

tod wrote:
ashley72 wrote:It makes you ponder does Libet's finding offer objective evidence that all conscious experience (consciousness of action) actually follow the action.


I would say no, because consciousness is aware of this - as you are now - is aware that any being in this apparent world is only apparently doing stuff, but not really doing it.


You probably believe that all living organisms are conscious right?

Did you read this?

http://www.academia.edu/223717/What_Is_It_Like_to_Be_Nonconscious_A_Defense_of_Julian_Jaynes
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Re: Awareness of an action tends to follow, not precede, the

Postby tod » Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:19 pm

ashley72 wrote:
tod wrote:
ashley72 wrote:It makes you ponder does Libet's finding offer objective evidence that all conscious experience (consciousness of action) actually follow the action.


I would say no, because consciousness is aware of this - as you are now - is aware that any being in this apparent world is only apparently doing stuff, but not really doing it.


You probably believe that all living organisms are conscious right?

They are only apparently so - or non-conscious if you like.



I am on 56k dialup and could not access it.
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