Awareness of an action tends to follow, not precede, the act

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Re: Awareness of an action tends to follow, not precede, the

Postby rideforever » Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:31 am

ashley72 wrote:
riderforever wrote:Does it make sense to you ?


No this is wrong....there is no fundamental contradiction it's an illusion of your mind.

Jaynes says that you need introspection and retrospection for Consciousness. This quality requires not just thinking...but penetrative thinking that can move inwards and outward or forwards & backwards... a kind of mind-space that thinking takes place in. He believed that this ability evolved from a persons mental linguistic scaffolding. This mental scaffolding which actually creates our mind-space comes from the use of metaphor and its tendency to represent or model the physical world & behaviour as a operation for explaining more and more abstract complexity.

An Embryo does not think, the brain has not yet formed. Thinking can only come after the brain has formed. Therefore, an embryo is a preconscious living organism.

A child who has a full array of sensory systems, eyes, ears, nose, skin, tongue & brain by Jaynes theory is still at a preconscious stage of development... Because the infants mind-space has not yet sufficiently developed to allow introspection or retrospection. For consciousness to develop the child will first have to learn language, the use of metaphor operations, which with more & more complexity until a mind-space forms. The child will than have the ability for introspection or retrospection...until this time the child will not suffer anxiety or other mental illness associated with being self-conscious.


Can you demonstrate that an embryo is not conscious ?

Because if you can't then the entire logic falls apart, doesn't it.
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Re: Awareness of an action tends to follow, not precede, the

Postby ashley72 » Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:30 am

riderforever wrote:Can you demonstrate that an embryo is not conscious ?

Because if you can't then the entire logic falls apart, doesn't it.


Consciousness (conscious action) is the quality or state of being aware of an external object or something within oneself. This quality needs the operation of introspection, retrospection, prospection & extrospection. An embryo cannot do any of these higher order cognitive operations.

We all went thru the embryonic stages in our early beginnings... it's fairly obvious to anyone we aren't conscious in the womb of our mothers. We aren't even all that conscious in our first couple of years of development. IMO, self conscious mind states & mental suffering associated with it, doesn't come until cognitive maturing has taken place.
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Re: Awareness of an action tends to follow, not precede, the

Postby rideforever » Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:45 pm

ashley72 wrote:it's fairly obvious to anyone we aren't conscious in the womb of our mothers.


1. "fairly obvious" ... is not a scientific position.

2. many people report memories of being conscious in the womb, at birth, when an infant, in past lives ... can you demonstrate that your memories are more valid then their memories ?
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Re: Awareness of an action tends to follow, not precede, the

Postby ashley72 » Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:19 pm

rideforever wrote:
ashley72 wrote:it's fairly obvious to anyone we aren't conscious in the womb of our mothers.


1. "fairly obvious" ... is not a scientific position.

2. many people report memories of being conscious in the womb, at birth, when an infant, in past lives ... can you demonstrate that your memories are more valid then their memories ?


Why would I bother. Any personal testimony is subjective evidence. But as a scientist my "own" experiences can be useful in helping me form a hypotheses, which in turn motivates me to gather the empirical evidence.

I didn't bother posting the links to all the scientific literature that offers objective empirical evidence that higher order thinking doesn't start until much later in the development cycle. The empirical evidence does exists.... I just know now posting it here for your benefit is a futile exercise... you're a non-believer in scientific methods... I think "you're lost with the fairies" so to speak!
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Re: Awareness of an action tends to follow, not precede, the

Postby tod » Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:16 pm

ashley72 wrote:I'm merely asking to describe that quality of consciousness that allows you to delineator it from mind-space. :wink:


The mind-space can be described - it as all description - the scribing or defining something in terms of, or as, something it is not. This is the very definition of mind-space. Humans live, act, in mind-space as Libet effectively showed. Consciousness does not, it cannot be truly described. This is how they are delineated.

ashley72 wrote:Lets examine the way that Tolle describes Consciousness using metaphor.


How else do you describe something? All language is metaphor, ie the description of something as something it is not - the shortcoming of description.

In every metaphor there are at least two terms, the thing we are trying to express in words, the metaphrand, and the term produced by a struction to do so, the metaphier. Jaynes chose metaphrand and metaphier because of their connotation to mathematical terms multiplicand & multiplier.

Every time you create a gap in the stream of your mind, the light of your consciousness grows stronger. ~ Tolle


Tolle describes mind (metaphrand) as a stream (metaphier) which is drawn from the physical behaviour of the world... like a large natural stream, which may be a waterway or stream of light from a laser beam.

Metaphiers usually have associations called paraphiers that project back into the metaphrand as what are called paraphrands and, indeed, create new entities.

Here the metaphier "stream" has extra qualities like "gap" & "light" which acts as paraphiers. In this way the spatial quality of a physical "stream" is being driven into the psychological fact of solving what Consciousness is. And it is this associated spatial quality with Consciousness that, as a result of the language used to describe such psychological events, becomes, with constant repetition, this spatial quality of our Consciousness or mind-space. It is this space which you preoptively are introspecting on at this very moment.


To me, what you have described is how we can 'talk ourselves into' so called 'consciousness'. This is not consciousness, it is still mind-space, perhaps a clear mind-space. How can consciousness be truly described, as any attempted description places us back into mind-space?
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Re: Awareness of an action tends to follow, not precede, the

Postby ashley72 » Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:45 pm

tod wrote:To me, what you have described is how we can 'talk ourselves into' so called 'consciousness'. This is not consciousness, it is still mind-space, perhaps a clear mind-space. How can consciousness be truly described, as any attempted description places us back into mind-space?


Again you clearly define Consciousness as something 'beyond' mind-space. Julian Jaynes would arguing that this occurs because you're trying to explain an abstract concept which is 'unknown' conceptually... and the best way of communicating an 'unknown' abstract concept is by modeling it on something very concrete in your experience. That concrete something is real physical space.

tod wrote:Humans live, act, in mind-space as Libet effectively showed. Consciousness does not, it cannot be truly described. This is how they are delineated.


Can you provide any signposts for how one gets out of their mind-space?

Does it happen by extrospection?
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Re: Awareness of an action tends to follow, not precede, the

Postby tod » Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:21 am

ashley72 wrote:
tod wrote:Humans live, act, in mind-space as Libet effectively showed. Consciousness does not, it cannot be truly described. This is how they are delineated.


Can you provide any signposts for how one gets out of their mind-space?

Does it happen by extrospection?


I gave what I thought a good pointer previously in this thread, but you were apparently too busy pursuing your line of argument. Here it is:
What are you trying to achieve with this Ash? You know that you are conscious don't you?. It is just that when you attempt to describe or think about what you are or where you are or what you are conscious of, you 'go non-conscious' or 'enter' the mind-space. Isn't this the case?
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Re: Awareness of an action tends to follow, not precede, the

Postby ashley72 » Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:42 am

tod wrote:What are you trying to achieve with this Ash? You know that you are conscious don't you?. It is just that when you attempt to describe or think about what you are or where you are or what you are conscious of, you 'go non-conscious' or 'enter' the mind-space. Isn't this the case?


You're keep pushing your point that we 'enter' a mind-space which is separate from Consciousness (non-mind). This certainly has a visual component in the communication. I know you can't help that... which is precisely why I'm getting you to probe so intensely.

Ramana Maharishi's self inquiry... "To whom do these thoughts arise?".... "To me".... "Well who am I?" He is definitely introspecting on a mind-space which has the quality of being able to watch thoughts arise.

Let's intensely probe how do you 'really' know that mind-space is something we enter from Consciousness. How do you introspect on this?

Jaynes offers a solution which is based on the ecology of linguistic development in humans. It's extremely plausible. Can you give us something different?
Last edited by ashley72 on Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Awareness of an action tends to follow, not precede, the

Postby rideforever » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:26 am

ashley72 wrote:
rideforever wrote:
ashley72 wrote:it's fairly obvious to anyone we aren't conscious in the womb of our mothers.


1. "fairly obvious" ... is not a scientific position.

2. many people report memories of being conscious in the womb, at birth, when an infant, in past lives ... can you demonstrate that your memories are more valid then their memories ?


Why would I bother. Any personal testimony is subjective evidence. But as a scientist my "own" experiences can be useful in helping me form a hypotheses, which in turn motivates me to gather the empirical evidence.

I didn't bother posting the links to all the scientific literature that offers objective empirical evidence that higher order thinking doesn't start until much later in the development cycle. The empirical evidence does exists.... I just know now posting it here for your benefit is a futile exercise... you're a non-believer in scientific methods... I think "you're lost with the fairies" so to speak!



You avoid simple questions.

That's not a scientific attitude.
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Re: Awareness of an action tends to follow, not precede, the

Postby tod » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:24 pm

ashley72 wrote:
tod wrote:What are you trying to achieve with this Ash? You know that you are conscious don't you?. It is just that when you attempt to describe or think about what you are or where you are or what you are conscious of, you 'go non-conscious' or 'enter' the mind-space. Isn't this the case?


You're keep pushing your point that we 'enter' a mind-space which is separate from Consciousness (non-mind). This certainly has a visual component in the communication. I know you can't help that... which is precisely why I'm getting you to probe so intensely.


I like (haha) that I am supposed to intensely probe and yet when I ask you questions for probing, you usually skirt round them or avoid them.

Ramana Maharishi's self inquiry... "To whom do these thoughts arise?".... "To me".... "Well who am I?" He is definitely introspecting on a mind-space which has the quality of being able to watch thoughts arise.


You are saying that there is a he that is watching a mind-space which in turn is able to watch the mind-space (thoughts)? Sounds a bit jumbled to me.

Let's intensely probe how do you 'really' know that mind-space is something we enter from Consciousness. How do you introspect on this?


I do not know this as I do not enter it - I only think I do, or only apparently do. And I know this as I had been contemplating the content of my mind for quite some time and noticing a reduction in the intensity of attachment; and then recently, after listening to some audio from James Swartz' Vedanta website, I noticed that I was not really attached to anything. It was as if both mind and space had become mind-space and I was not in it, I was observing it; in hindsight, I realise that this 'trend' had been occurring over a period of time.

Jaynes offers a solution which is based on the ecology of linguistic development in humans. It's extremely plausible. Can you give us something different?


Any solution, or anything plausible, would still be in mind-space; just more thought construction. We do not want more of this, but less, ie clear seeing or clarity of mind.

All probing takes place in mind-space. If your mind-space is particularly large and you are very attached to ideas, ie unclear, then you will continue to apparently exist in mind-space until those attachments are weakened.

If you are unwilling to even temporally leave 'safe ground' and probe the boundaries of mind-space by opening it to what may be thought to be 'flakey domains', how will you ever get beyond attachment/confinement to mind-space?

Your unwillingness to do your own probing into your own mind here, and propensity for quoting qualified others - qualified by being considered to be on the same 'safe ground' as yourself, shows a distinct narrowness of mind-space.

You asked for something different. Can you handle it?

Thank you for encouraging my own probing.
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Re: Awareness of an action tends to follow, not precede, the

Postby ashley72 » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:56 pm

tod wrote:If you are unwilling to even temporally leave 'safe ground' and probe the boundaries of mind-space by opening it to what may be thought to be 'flakey domains', how will you ever get beyond attachment/confinement to mind-space?

Your unwillingness to do your own probing into your own mind here, and propensity for quoting qualified others - qualified by being considered to be on the same 'safe ground' as yourself, shows a distinct narrowness of mind-space.

You asked for something different. Can you handle it?


Why did you delete your last post yesterday? Then come back 12 hours later with a rant like this?

Maybe you need to introspect a bit longer on the 'agitation' directed at 'me' currently arising in your mind-space.
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Re: Awareness of an action tends to follow, not precede, the

Postby tod » Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:25 am

ashley72 wrote:Maybe you need to introspect a bit longer on the 'agitation' directed at 'me' currently arising in your mind-space.


Ok, sorry you took what I said in a way that was not intended.
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Re: Awareness of an action tends to follow, not precede, the

Postby ashley72 » Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:58 am

tod wrote:
ashley72 wrote:Maybe you need to introspect a bit longer on the 'agitation' directed at 'me' currently arising in your mind-space.


Ok, sorry you took what I said in a way that was not intended.


Apology accepted. :D

I don't think either of us are "unwilling" to probe. The only difference is maybe the unique perspective each of us has arrived at so far.
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