Awareness of an action tends to follow, not precede, the act

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Re: Awareness of an action tends to follow, not precede, the

Postby ashley72 » Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:47 pm

Tod,

Do you feel that Consciousness needs to have the quality of introspection, retrospection & prospection?

If you agree it does can you remember having this ability as an infant?

Most meditative practices actually sharpen our skills of introspection & attention.
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Re: Awareness of an action tends to follow, not precede, the

Postby tod » Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:00 am

ashley72 wrote:Tod,

Do you feel that Consciousness needs to have the quality of introspection, retrospection & prospection?


As far as I can see, consciousness needs no qualities - it is the mind(-space) that has/needs qualities.
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Re: Awareness of an action tends to follow, not precede, the

Postby ashley72 » Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:14 am

tod wrote:
ashley72 wrote:Tod,

Do you feel that Consciousness needs to have the quality of introspection, retrospection & prospection?


As far as I can see, consciousness needs no qualities - it is the mind(-space) that has/needs qualities.


Elaborate?

Takes us through the exact steps you were able to deduce that Consciousness has no qualities?
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Re: Awareness of an action tends to follow, not precede, the

Postby tod » Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:21 am

ashley72 wrote:
Elaborate?


A more full answer to your previous post:

ashley72 wrote:Tod,

Do you feel that Consciousness needs to have the quality of introspection, retrospection & prospection?


As far as I can see, consciousness needs no qualities - it is the mind(-space) that has/needs qualities.

If you agree it does can you remember having this ability as an infant?


It appears that an infant learns to occupy the mind-space of the culture it is born into.
Most meditative practices actually sharpen our skills of introspection & attention.


I would say that the true intention of meditation is to exit the mind-space, thus returning to consciousness

---

I note that any elaboration is in the mind-space.
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Re: Awareness of an action tends to follow, not precede, the

Postby tod » Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:33 am

To me, Libet has shown that any action thought to be taken by a being in this world shows that that being is living in mind-space. I mean if action has already taken place, where is that being living (acting) other than in mind-space?
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Re: Awareness of an action tends to follow, not precede, the

Postby ashley72 » Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:41 am

tod wrote:I would say that the true intention of meditation is to exit the mind-space, thus returning to consciousness


I can understand this line of argument. But I don't think you ever exit mind-space. I think its more likely that our executive attention is the regulator or mediator which cycles between modes or realms within our mind-space. Introspection, retrospection & prospections are the different dimensions within that mind space. But a forth dimension which is extrospection.... the ability to consider things external to ones self is what you refer to as Consciousness. It's merely an illusion that people feel its outside of themselves.

Extrospection is what Tolle refers to when he says listen to the silence, inner-body awareness which are all related to our sensory systems.
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Re: Awareness of an action tends to follow, not precede, the

Postby tod » Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:45 am

ashley72 wrote:
tod wrote:I would say that the true intention of meditation is to exit the mind-space, thus returning to consciousness


I can understand this line of argument. But I don't think you ever exit mind-space.


What is the you that you do not think ever exits mind-space? I agree that the thought constructed you cannot exit, as it is composed of thought. But consciousness, the actual you, never really entered thought, so no real need to exit.

But a forth dimension which is extrospection.... the ability to consider things external to ones self is what you refer to as Consciousness. It's merely an illusion that people feel its outside of themselves.


The ability to consider things, whether external, internal, or wherever, is mind-space, otherwise it could not be considered, thought about, analysed. Consciousness is aware of this. I am aware of this. This is not anything way out.

Extrospection is what Tolle refers to when he says listen to the silence, inner-body awareness which are all related to our sensory systems.


What you are referring to as extrospection is to me another name for mind-space. When we refer to anything sensed, be it silence, inner body, thoughts, dimensions, ..., it is sensed by the sensory system, the reflective system, the mind-space. And consciousness is not touched by these reflections.

What have you deeply taken from Libet? How can you really be in the mind-space - when all these things that you think you are doing, thinking, formulating, whatever, have already been done?
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Re: Awareness of an action tends to follow, not precede, the

Postby ashley72 » Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:48 am

Tod,

What sort of language would you use to describe Consciousness or conscious processes?

Would you say that is 'clear' or "still" or possibly 'dull', 'fuzzy', 'obscure'.?? Can you try and give me a few helpful visual pointers of what Consciousness best represents. Thanks
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Re: Awareness of an action tends to follow, not precede, the

Postby tod » Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:24 am

ashley72 wrote:Tod,

What sort of language would you use to describe Consciousness or conscious processes?

Would you say that is 'clear' or "still" or possibly 'dull', 'fuzzy', 'obscure'.?? Can you try and give me a few helpful visual pointers of what Consciousness best represents. Thanks


What are you trying to achieve with this Ash? You know that you are conscious don't you?. It is just that when you attempt to describe or think about what you are or where you are or what you are conscious of, you 'go non-conscious' or 'enter' the mind-space. Isn't this the case?
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Re: Awareness of an action tends to follow, not precede, the

Postby ashley72 » Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:01 am

tod wrote:What are you trying to achieve with this Ash?


Answering the question is very important to my next argument. Therefore, What sort of language would you use to describe Consciousness or conscious processes?

tod wrote:You know that you are conscious don't you?. It is just that when you attempt to describe or think about what you are or where you are or what you are conscious of, you 'go non-conscious' or 'enter' the mind-space. Isn't this the case?


I'm not denying Consciousness. I just don't believe it is what you think it is.... and I'm going to attempt to show you why.
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Re: Awareness of an action tends to follow, not precede, the

Postby tod » Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:36 am

ashley72 wrote:
tod wrote:What are you trying to achieve with this Ash?


Answering the question is very important to my next argument. Therefore, What sort of language would you use to describe Consciousness or conscious processes?


I have already answered that question. The argument is developing but you apparently insist that answers to questions be in a fashion that suits you. That is not developing an argument.

tod wrote:You know that you are conscious don't you?. It is just that when you attempt to describe or think about what you are or where you are or what you are conscious of, you 'go non-conscious' or 'enter' the mind-space. Isn't this the case?


I'm not denying Consciousness. I just don't believe it is what you think it is.... and I'm going to attempt to show you why.


Attempting to define consciousness is denying it. The whole gist of what I have been saying is that what Is THOUGHT to be consciousness is not it, and yet you say that you are going to attempt to show me why what I THINK it is is not it. I do not intend to have a circular argument.
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Re: Awareness of an action tends to follow, not precede, the

Postby ashley72 » Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:02 am

tod wrote:Attempting to define consciousness is denying it. The whole gist of what I have been saying is that what Is THOUGHT to be consciousness is not it, and yet you say that you are going to attempt to show me why what I THINK it is is not it. I do not intend to have a circular argument.


Its not a circular argument.

tod wrote:I would say that the true intention of meditation is to exit the mind-space, thus returning to consciousness."


You are clearly defining a spatial transition from mind-space -> consciousness. For you to do that, there must be some kind of delineator sitting between mind-space and consciousness in your thinking mind. Otherwise you wouldn't have said it in the first instance.

I'm merely asking to describe that quality of consciousness that allows you to delineator it from mind-space. :wink:
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Re: Awareness of an action tends to follow, not precede, the

Postby ashley72 » Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:15 am

Consider the language we use to describe conscious processes. The most prominent group of words used to describe mental events are visual. We 'see' solutions to problems, the best of which may be 'brilliant' or 'clear' or possibly 'dull,'fuzzy', 'obscure'. These words are all metaphors and the mind-space to which they apply is generated by metaphors of actual physical space.

In that space we can 'approach' a problem, perhaps from some 'viewpoint', 'grapple' with its difficulties. Every word we use to refer to mental events is a metaphor or analog of something in the behavioural world.

We can also speak of the conscious mind as being 'quick' or 'slow', or of somebody being 'nimble-witted' or 'strong-minded' or 'weak-minded' or 'broad-minded' or 'deep' or 'open' or 'narrow-minded.' And so like a real space, something can be at the 'back' or our mind, or in the 'inner recesses' or 'beyond' our minds.

tod wrote:I would say that the true intention of meditation is to exit the mind-space, thus returning to consciousness."


Here you distinctly describe consciousness as something being 'beyond' mind.
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Re: Awareness of an action tends to follow, not precede, the

Postby ashley72 » Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:48 am

Lets examine the way that Tolle describes Consciousness using metaphor.

In every metaphor there are at least two terms, the thing we are trying to express in words, the metaphrand, and the term produced by a struction to do so, the metaphier. Jaynes chose metaphrand and metaphier because of their connotation to mathematical terms multiplicand & multiplier.

Every time you create a gap in the stream of your mind, the light of your consciousness grows stronger. ~ Tolle


Tolle describes mind (metaphrand) as a stream (metaphier) which is drawn from the physical behaviour of the world... like a large natural stream, which may be a waterway or stream of light from a laser beam.

Metaphiers usually have associations called paraphiers that project back into the metaphrand as what are called paraphrands and, indeed, create new entities.

Here the metaphier "stream" has extra qualities like "gap" & "light" which acts as paraphiers. In this way the spatial quality of a physical "stream" is being driven into the psychological fact of solving what Consciousness is. And it is this associated spatial quality with Consciousness that, as a result of the language used to describe such psychological events, becomes, with constant repetition, this spatial quality of our Consciousness or mind-space. It is this space which you preoptively are introspecting on at this very moment.
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Re: Awareness of an action tends to follow, not precede, the

Postby ZenOfchaos » Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:02 am

ashley72 wrote:1. Julian Jayne would say, Awareness of an action tends to follow, not precede, the action. Awareness of an action bears little or no influence on the outcome. Before one utters a sentence, one is not conscious of being about to utter those specific words.

2. In stark contrast, Eckhart Tolle would expand the meaning of Consciousness/Awareness/Presence.... and say it is all pervading. A non-thing which all things spring from. ALL inclusive & encompassing & preceding all things.

Would of these do you agree or disagree with & why?


I think both of these statements are true and the main problem comes in defining what one means by awareness, attention, and consciousness. They are vague undefined terms that are often used synonymously.

what JJ is saying is the mind's conscious awareness of an internal state (thought or intention or command) is only apparent when it enters our own awareness. Libets and others findings support this view and conforms to the spiritual view that we don't control anything but the fact the brain is aware of thoughts and so on makes it think it does. hence the illusion of a controlling self.

ET talks about presence which I believe is placing attention on the mind's awareness and detaching from the sense of self as the thinker/controller. The consciousness he talks of, the formless unmanifested, goes beyond this in my opinion. I don't know what it is. Maybe the spirit world, maybe the quantum field of infinite possibility, maybe a string from string theory, maybe even nevernever land! who knows! It is this that exists (or doesn't) but shouldn't be confused with awareness or consciousness in the conventional sense.

So to reiterate my earlier statement, I don't believe the two statements conradict each other but merely represents different aspects of similar but not he same things.
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