what makes spirituality spiritual?

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what makes spirituality spiritual?

Postby ZenOfchaos » Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:58 am

Spirituality is banded around by many different groups and people. Tolle talks about the divine, presence, and being. But what exactly is spirituality? Is it to suggest that there is some higher power somewhere? And how do you know? Maybe presence is just the brain's awareness function being aware of itself rather than anything godly or spiritual.
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Re: what makes spirituality spiritual?

Postby rideforever » Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:22 pm

It is a voyage into the unknown with truth as your guide
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Re: what makes spirituality spiritual?

Postby ZenOfchaos » Wed Jun 19, 2013 6:38 pm

that doesn't really make it spiritual or answer the question :?


Is spiruituality about accessing another 'spiritual' dimension or is it nothing more than psychology?
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Re: what makes spirituality spiritual?

Postby rideforever » Wed Jun 19, 2013 6:47 pm

People think they live in the real world ... that they live in a concrete world ... and if they choose too they can do something unusual and go into a different spiritual dimension.

Only later do you realise that you were just very deluded about where you were, and that were you were was not concrete or real at all. And by doing the 'spiritual thing' you simply find what is real. Simply that, what is real.

Later on you realise that you don't know very much at all, you lose any sense of certainty, and that existence is a mystery, and the only guide or strand is truth.
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Re: what makes spirituality spiritual?

Postby ZenDrumming » Wed Jun 19, 2013 6:55 pm

Here's how I see it. Spirituality (my definition, I obviously can't speak for everybody who uses the word) means the quest to expand perspective, to come into contact with truth in oneself and one's surroundings, and to transcend mental conditioning. It's the counterweight to the rational, productive, mechanical, and analytical force in all of us. It's the connection you form with yourself at the base level, which translates into a connection with all there is.

I don't see it as something you "do". It's something everybody is engaged in at different levels. I don't see any reason to live without spirituality, in the way I define the word. It could be a result of brain activity, or it could be a connection with a higher or more infinite being. I don't know, and I don't think it matters.

The whole concept is only an abstraction though. It's just a structure built around the formless, you're free to take or leave it.
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Re: what makes spirituality spiritual?

Postby ZenOfchaos » Sat Jun 22, 2013 7:52 am

Thanks. You've both done well to describe the 'spiritual journey'. A way to find out what's true and what's not and how this effects life.

I guess as part of my journey I'd like to know what is 'spiritual' about the journey. Is spirit a loose term for having a different feel or take on life, wherein you could drop the label 'spirit' and it could simply be a 'truth journey'. Or is there some real divine presence. Some spiritual dimension that influences the world of form. An intelligence beyond the world of form. Something that communicates in some capacity with the world of form.

I have a strong desire to know the truth rather than form new beliefs. I'm not sure how to realise the truth of this in experience (at the moment anyway). Folk like tolle and adya seem to convinced of the spiritual/divine.

Knowing the answer could provide some faith, trust and reassurance in the process. Maybe its egos way of throwing doubt into the process but I'd like to know the truth either way.
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Re: what makes spirituality spiritual?

Postby rideforever » Sat Jun 22, 2013 9:38 am

There is no either way.

There is no other place.

There is only your journey towards truth.

If I put a potato on the table, the French will call it "pomme de terre", the Germans "kartoffel". But it doesn't change what it is. It is not "potato" either. It is just what it is.

Water is wet. Water is not trying to be wet. It just is what it is.

When you are born your parents call you "John". But that is not your name. What is your name ? Can you understand the question itself ?

A struggle must go on inside you to answer the questions you ask. Your struggle inside you. You must struggle.

The understanding and the being of it, are one. There is no understand without the being of it.
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Re: what makes spirituality spiritual?

Postby SandyJoy » Sat Jun 22, 2013 5:39 pm

Hey Ride, that is really nice, I like that one very much. Yes, that is a good way to shine some light on this subject; Without your name you still exist. What makes you a You. How can you be an Identity and still have no name or have amnesia, yet you are aware, still knowing you are here. How is this Self You Are just simply you-ing (verb "to you") How is the world "be-ing" -- How is this Life "life-ing"?

How is the furniture 'furniture-ing'? It is all spiritual really. We lose our insight as we grow older, become an adult (adult-erated) the Truth gets covered up, we become indoctrinated by the cultural human-belief system that trains us to believe in materialism, as in there is nothing 'spiritual' it is all material in origin and so is the body and form. As we begin to grow up we take on this shell of mistaken beliefs. We forget who we really are. We forget, like being hypnotized. We forget, like being brainwashed and zombi-ized.

When we are very young children the world is an amazing place, we are in wonder of it all, we know we are living in magic, we are alive to everything, we feel and touch and soak in our senses, everything is sensual and the vitality is acute. We are right up close, intimate, bare naked, vulnerable and right up close to God, so we are touching. And in our gut we know we can fly. We are super sensitive, alert to everything, colors, tones, sounds, smells, we are raw-- we know the chair talks, we know our teddy bear has a heart and soul, we hear the trees, the flowers smile at us, and we know that birds and squirrels and buzzing bees are all the sentient expressings of God's Wonderland.

But that all gets shoved by the way side in order to live as if we need to fit into being a 'normal human' adult :(

Then, if we are lucky, somehow the shell we took on, the hard cover we have cloaked ourself with starts to crack and we get a glimmer again of the Truth and Beauty of God's Divine Wonder right Here as The Mystical Magical World we are the very Living-ness of.

Through the crack in the shell we begin to see through the cover-up, and so we know there is Something more--we begin to remember again that there is a beautiful world outside the shell, so we start to work at cracking the shell more and more and until the whole shell falls off--Slowly, but if we Trust and keep on going, precept upon precept, here a little there a little it all falls off.

Then we see the world as it really is, as it is; We feel alive again and come back to our own Self, assured and confident in knowing Who We Are and no longer duped by the human conditioning and lies and fear based scams. We discover the fear based system is a hoax used for power and control, making you subservient to matter, making you fear matter and things, so the Pharisee can keep you down.

Now, we are breaking free, many of us. But we have to the find Living One in order to really understand Who We Really Are, and then we are free, free from the dupe of a belief that matter has power over us. Free from the system entirely as we recognize we are Spirit, we Are Eternal Light, We are the Awareness of God and we are not matter, but Spirit, alive and Unbound and Everywhere at once. Nothing and no one can imprison the Light We Are--so now we are truly free and we know it.

Alice in wonderland, everything is alive, everything speaks to us, everything is deep, deeper and we see the holy Light everywhere and we are filled with Love and made in God's Image as His radiant Light right here and right now. And we see God standing here behind it all, the Wholeness is God's Alone and we right here at the very hem of His robe we are touching God directly here as the world, as the Awareness that includes this world and as this one I am, the one we call Me or You---The Self and God are as close as fingers and toes, no separation; One Presence.

We see this Living Presence as the world Itself and as the tangible things come and go the God, the Ineffable One, the Isness that is Being All This It remains Right Here Perfectly Being Itself In and as All That It Is.

This tangible world is the Living Evidence of God.

As above, so below, we are God's Light expressing as 'you and me'---and What you Be is what You See, We are the world we walk through. The world is reflection of 'who we are'--We manifest the world around us. So it is very important that we find our True Selfhood that is Divine and Live It, because when we do, we will look out and about and see the world lifted up, a divine world, by our very own shift in perspective.

Since the world really is made of spirit, made of Divine Mind's Light, then What I am and hold as the truth in my mind's eye, I will see that manifest in the world out there.

If I say I am a pitiful dolt with no hope for anything better, and hold that as true, then I will see that in the world around me.

If I pick up my bed and walk, and Be the Actual Living Truth of Who I Am, The Divine Light of Godhead All in all, then The world 'out there' will be seen as a reflection of what 'we are' we will see the Truth. Any state of being we cultivate will be seen as the 'state' of the world. Changing anything 'out there' must begin by changing what we think and believe with our self.

This is why we are all longing to find the Truth, to find What Is Real--and when you do, you will Find Your Self, Your Divine and Perfect Self.

When you see things going 'bad' then you must turn within and find your True Self and Put it to the Test and Live It and see what happens.

When I find the Light of Truth, I will begin to see the whole world finding that Light, one by one, slowy but sure I will see everyone finding this Light of Life for himself.

It's all Spiritual, there is nothing but Spiritual. So be careful what you think. We live in a Holy world, whether we know it or not, it is all holy territory, every jot and tittle of it.
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Re: what makes spirituality spiritual?

Postby karmarider » Sat Jun 22, 2013 6:10 pm

ZenOfchaos wrote:I have a strong desire to know the truth rather than form new beliefs.


You are wise to remain true to your experience. There's no need to reach for concepts.

I'm not sure how to realise the truth of this in experience (at the moment anyway). Folk like tolle and adya seem to convinced of the spiritual/divine.


I see it as an iterative process of personal investigation. Investigation is not the right word--it isn't about intellectual analysis. I get a pointer or technique from Tolle, Adya, Sherman, etc, and from life itself, and I try to see the truth of it. Wash, rinse, repeat. Use your intuition and the next step becomes clear. In this process, I have learned that I can release emotions at will, I can step back and observe what goes on inside me, I have seen fear in me, and I have looked at me, and I have formed a particular view of universe which gives me a very resonant way to live. At some point, the process became very enjoyable and creative, and it's good news to me that there is no end to this process. The perfection is in the process. This is human life.

And so what others say about spirituality doesn't really matter, except perhaps to give you ideas. The joy is in the personal investigation of it.

Knowing the answer could provide some faith, trust and reassurance in the process. Maybe its egos way of throwing doubt into the process but I'd like to know the truth either way.


True. It is from the Conversations with God that I came to see that the end is assured. It's a matter of remembering who we really are, and that is inevitable. And you're right, that does give me assurance and much better experience of this human life.
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Re: what makes spirituality spiritual?

Postby TemporalDissonance » Sun Jun 23, 2013 4:34 pm

Spirituality is very plain, very simple.

Quoting Adyanshanti, it is becoming "who you are before your parents are born".

ZenOfchaos wrote:I guess as part of my journey I'd like to know what is 'spiritual' about the journey. Is spirit a loose term for having a different feel or take on life, wherein you could drop the label 'spirit' and it could simply be a 'truth journey'. Or is there some real divine presence. Some spiritual dimension that influences the world of form. An intelligence beyond the world of form. Something that communicates in some capacity with the world of form.

I have a strong desire to know the truth rather than form new beliefs. I'm not sure how to realise the truth of this in experience (at the moment anyway). Folk like tolle and adya seem to convinced of the spiritual/divine.


"Spirit" really only points to what we are. There is only a "truth journey" or any "journey" only in the sense of unbecoming.

ZenOfchaos wrote:Knowing the answer could provide some faith, trust and reassurance in the process. Maybe its egos way of throwing doubt into the process but I'd like to know the truth either way.


What if the answer is unknowable? Unfathomable?
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Re: what makes spirituality spiritual?

Postby SandyJoy » Sun Jun 23, 2013 5:43 pm

TemporalDissonance wrote:Quoting Adyanshanti, it is becoming "who you are before your parents are born".


Reminds me of this one I like to often use: John 17:5 "So now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world existed.

That brings me right up close to feeling the Living Reality of the Original Self I Am.


Also, I just re-read what I wrote above and I see one thing that I feel it necessary to explain further.

I said this:
SandyJoy wrote:When you see things going 'bad' then you must turn within and find your True Self and Put it to the Test and Live It and see what happens.


The reason for quotation glyph on the word 'bad' is that in the Light of Truth nothing is 'bad'--In the Light of Truth we find that everything is showing us a way back to our Self. What seems 'bad' only seems that way so that we can use it like a little sign on a winding path through the forest telling us we are going the wrong way, so the sign is really a good thing.

When we look out at the world around us, that world out there is a reflection of what we hold and carry around within us. The world is our mirror, so if you do not like what you see in the mirror, you cannot change the mirror, you have no choice but to change Self.

The reflection is not real, not bad, it is a reflection of your self, a mirror doing the good work it is supposed to do. And so beautiful that when we Love It for Being a part of Our self, the Image of Our self, then we start to Love our Self simultaneously; It's One Self. Its all My Self. If I love one side of the equation, I love the other, same + same.

Hmm, well, this is nearly impossible to explain I guess. I suppose why so many books and teachers, so many ways to try to say this.

So, anyway--- the 'bad' is not 'bad' it is really Good, Divine Love always showing us the way to come back Home to our True Self, the One Self that never leaves us, that is Always Who We and Is Ever Present right now as the very Light in your eyes and the Awareness reading these words.

The world 'out there' is not bad, it is our reflection and in that it is a beautiful Light showing us the way to find our Self once again, come home to This Self I Am, Right Here and Now.

I say "Test it" as in Live It from the Light of the very Truth of Life, Be the LIving One God made you as--Be and See-- We can actually test this by doing it, by Living The Truth, by Putting It Into Practice (I use the Practice as in the way a student graduates, gets his Doctor in Medicine and then he begins his Practice) We put what we have seen and learned into Practice, we Do It, we Live It.

We can test to see "if I change, will my world change?" --And If I love my world will Love My Self (yes it works that way too)

And of corse it has to be real change, real Love, authentic deeply heart felt, sincere, "repentance" in an honest change for the better, because you 'get it' you see the error of your mistaken ways, you see Who You Really Are and want to Be That---you can actually try it and see if it works . Just Live the Truth.

But if you are still stuck in the belief that you are 'separate from the Light of God' and continue to wallow in the unbelieving' then I don't think it would actually do much for you.
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Re: what makes spirituality spiritual?

Postby rideforever » Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:14 pm

Truth is alive. It is living. It is real. It is ... 'moving' ...

Many people talk about "finding it" and that being the end of the story ... and it seems to me that when they do they are really talking only in terms of pain and not feeling pain any more.

And there are many ways to hide from pain.

It is clear to me that most of the religions that have existed on this asleep planet have fallen into a place to hide from pain.

For instance people talk of being "quiet" ... but Truth is not quiet. It is not label-able. It does not choose a place to be. It is all. Again ... people want an end to their pain.

People talk of "non-violence". In what sense can we not be violent ? In our stomachs are war of the immune system kills millions every day, and supernovae destroy thousands of worlds. Who is non-violent ? Again ... people want an end to their pain.

Beyond pain and non-pain is the living Truth, which is not a destination but a endless deepening evolution of the Real.

Who has pain ? Pain is love because through pain you grow ... without it who would grow ? Pain is your food, it is your signal to evolve.

All these identifications must drop ... one by one ... then one hundred by one hundred ...

Love is calling ... endlessly ...
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Re: what makes spirituality spiritual?

Postby oak tree » Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:47 pm

SandyJoy wrote:It's all Spiritual, there is nothing but Spiritual.


Exactly.
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Re: what makes spirituality spiritual?

Postby Sighclone » Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:19 am

Adya has said, on occasion, that he doesn't like the word "spiritual' or "spirituality." Of course he uses it all the time anyway. I think it is a word we have had to invent to fill a vacuum, where rational understanding fails to explain. Before people understood botany, the Sun God did it all and there were "lesser spirits" everywhere. Native American spirituality is vast and wonderful, full of stories and legends to explain the marvelous. Is the Law of Attraction a spiritual law? Is astrology spiritual? How about karma? Reincarnations? Channeling? The I Ching? And of course all our standard religions. I think that today these all fall in the realm of "spiritual." Nonduality still resides there.

But some stuff has fallen away as science has given its explanations. My guess is that someday, Truth will be discoverable and definable by more than just a "knowing," a "transcendant experience," a "miracle" or an "awakening" or a "shift." We already have some newer neurological models to explain some things. The problem with "spiritual" stuff which is defined at least partly as "unknowable by conventional means" is that it opens the door to gobs of malarkey that is very far from Truth.

Looking ahead say 500 years, assuming we manage to keep our planet alive, I think the word "spiritual" will be used for a far narrower range of topics, and that we will have fewer magical stories to try to decode.

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There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
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Re: what makes spirituality spiritual?

Postby treasuretheday » Wed Jun 26, 2013 6:34 pm

Oh, this is fun! Yes, the word "spiritual" makes me feel a little itchy too. It has been appropriated by such a wide range of enterprises, both commercial and personal, that it has indeed become a cliche to a large extent. What one means by Spirit, can be enormously different than what the other 100 people in the room mean by Spirit.

Is Spirit a holy figure, a state of being, an invisible force? Or is Spirit a ghostly entity? Maybe a benevolent, wise guide, an imaginary friend? All of the above? Hence, the word Spirit-ual becomes quite a tub of muddy water. Our vocabulary falls short over and over again. What does the word Soul mean? A genre of music, a style of food, a place deep within us? None of the above? How about, Supernatural? What is super to me may be quite ordinary to someone else. What is natural to someone else may seem anything but to me.

Fortunately, to the mystics of the East and West, it is deeply understood that the God of one person is never quite the same as the God of another person. In the mystical tradition, no one can claim objectivity for his or her insight. Each person is called to journey into the mystery of God along the path of his or her own expanding personhood. Every person is believed capable of being a theophany, a sign of God's presence, but one person, institution, or way of life can not exhaust this revelation.

When Jesus, speaking as the Christ says, "The Father and I are One," he is expressing his nondual experience. This mirrors the Buddhist, "Nirvana is Samsara" or the Hindu, "Brahman is Atman." God and Creation are one without a two, made of the same essence and substance.

I agree with SandyJoy and Oak Tree, that the old story about fleeing this world to find the "spiritual" life, has had its day. We do not need to flee this world. Our Earth, our bodies, our ordinary occupations and everyday dealings are not "less than" spiritual stuff. We are called to see the divine and bring forth the divine in everything about our humanity, right here, right now.
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