what makes spirituality spiritual?

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Re: what makes spirituality spiritual?

Postby rideforever » Wed Jun 26, 2013 7:32 pm

Science has never discovered anything at all. Not one single thing.

Ah the Golden Age of science, the discovery of Gravity, the discovery of America ... yes those were the days.

You can just imagine when Columbus arrived on the coast of America and proudly discovered it, there were 30 million Native Americans living there that shook his hand. "Yes, well done for 'discovering' us !, Yes that's great !!"

Likewise, Isaac Newton was sitting next to an apple tree one day watching the ripening apples fall. The same situation had been seen countless times by countless people for the 2 million years our species has existed.

He jumped up and said : "I have discovered it, and I will call it Gravity".

In a previous era he would have been declared mad and locked up in prison.

If you think differently then it is because you do not understand the depth of the delusion mankind is; and cannot comprehend the vastness of what is meant by awakening.

Why after 2 million years of our species are we in such a sorry state, living in personal and national violence, banality, and environmental destruction ? Why ? After such a long time ?

Precisely because people think that there has been any progress at all.
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Re: what makes spirituality spiritual?

Postby oak tree » Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:07 pm

Sighclone wrote:Adya has said, on occasion, that he doesn't like the word "spiritual' or "spirituality."


Yes. Adya uses "truth" a lot. Eckhart uses "presence". John Sherman uses "sanity". Anthony de Mello uses "reality". Not that language matters, they are pointing to the same place anyway. But these words do seem more direct. "Spirituality" is very much overused i think.

treasuretheday wrote:I agree with SandyJoy and Oak Tree, that the old story about fleeing this world to find the "spiritual" life, has had its day. We do not need to flee this world. Our Earth, our bodies, our ordinary occupations and everyday dealings are not "less than" spiritual stuff. We are called to see the divine and bring forth the divine in everything about our humanity, right here, right now.


Yes. Whatever you call it, it is here and now. It's all around us. No need to go live in a cave. :D
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Re: what makes spirituality spiritual?

Postby Sighclone » Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:14 pm

The realm of scientific discovery is self-contained, and has actually, in some important ways, self-destructed. The implications of Quantum Mechanics drove Einstein nuts, "God does not play dice with the Universe," he moaned. But he was wrong. Discovering uncertainty (QM) drove a stake in the heart of classical thinking (probability, yes / certainty, no).

However, on a less refined scale, discovering the relationships among consciousness, the mind and the brain, and producing biofeedback systems which relieve stress by allowing participants to rewire their default mode network (the brain centers that are active at rest) via meditation (and perhaps chemicals to trigger a cascade), could be a breakthrough of staggering proportion relative to ending human psychological suffering. There are both public and private efforts proceeding in this area now. A suggestion that there is no relationship between the neurophysiology of the brain and the experience awakening is do discredit recent discoveries at major universities and foundations. For more on this, start here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jE1j5Om7g0U

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Re: what makes spirituality spiritual?

Postby kiki » Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:15 pm

Throw out the word "discovery". Instead, think of it this way, science has revealed insight into how things are the way they are, providing a framework for understanding the natural world, an understanding that is constantly being refined. The great scientists of the world took what others had also seen and investigated the "why" of it, and the world in general is much better for it. So on the level of form we have science to thank for many things, otherwise we'd still be in the dark ages, with people's lives being dominated by superstition, ignorance, and fear. Enjoy your ability to post on the internet due to an ever evolving science.
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Re: what makes spirituality spiritual?

Postby rideforever » Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:41 pm

Well, I am interested to hear how science is not delusion :

kiki wrote:Throw out the word "discovery". Instead, think of it this way, science has revealed insight into how things are the way they are, providing a framework for understanding the natural world, an understanding that is constantly being refined.

That's just the mind. The mind thinks it is important, that it is a framework. But because it is a fictitious structure that is not connected to the Real, it knows very little.

kiki wrote:The great scientists of the world took what others had also seen and investigated the "why" of it, and the world in general is much better for it.

In what sense better ? Many "wise" people think mankind has got just a few hundred years left until major collapse or extinction, this after 2 million years of a species. The impending collapse is tightly linked to "science". This "science" we have now is the disaster. Is the domination of mind.

kiki wrote:So on the level of form we have science to thank for many things, otherwise we'd still be in the dark ages, with people's lives being dominated by superstition, ignorance, and fear.

Science itself is ignorance, superstition and fear. In ages past people were wise enough to understand how little they knew, and surrendered themselves to the unknown. Today this is called the dark ages. But, actually it is just wisdom, maturity and honesty.

I saw a poster recently by Cancer Research UK. It said "Together we can KILL CANCER". Hmm. Like we killed bacteriae with our antibiotics ? Like we killed the Native American Indians ? Like we killed the bad guys in the movies ? In fact killing with antibiotics has generated horrendous new species and we have no defence now. Many bacteriae are multiple-antibiotic resistant. People die every week in hospital in the UK. Nothing can be done now.

It is basically stupid. It is the most immature and unwise people thinking they know something. That is science.

Who makes the bombs ? Who makes the nuclear bombs ? Little Bo Peep ? I think not. It is the brainiest MIT graduates. So enthralled by their mind juice that they can't see they are killing their own families.

This is science, the mind enthralled with itself. Science is basically mind. It is interesting to hear people talk about "science" because it shows how deeply conditioned fundamental assumptions are buried in the human mind.

I would be interested to hear something positive about "science", that isn't the mind defending itself. Is there someone or something who has some statement to make about science, of it's value in the Real ? Perhaps there is ... ?

As JK said "freedom from the known".

This wasn't a ... metaphor.


It isn't possible to know something if the one who is knowing is false.

This is the thing that is so very very very rarely looked at because no-one questions it. It is very difficult for a person to look in the mirror and question whether his entire reality mind personality sense of being I etc... is a total lie.
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Re: what makes spirituality spiritual?

Postby treasuretheday » Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:54 pm

Maybe at the heart of the criticism of science is the sense that the "experts" don't know what they don't know? I think increasingly, there is more recognition of that.

Sure, matter and energy are well known, and the continuum between them is easily observable and quantifiable as we access this physical universe with solidity and form with our five senses. But what about "psychic force?" Science at this point can't measure these subtler energies, but we know they impact our physical world significantly. There is no mathematical equation that can calculate the effect that attention, for example, brings to bear on the quality of a task performed. But we know it when we see it. We readily see the difference between a child that has been loved and one that has been neglected. There are no theorems or formulations to "prove" it, but again, we know an energetic "transaction" has taken place.

Isn't this where science & the "spiritual" (for lack of a better word) meet the classic fork in the road? We can't take an x-ray, see through the external appearance, & glimpse the innermost aliveness and qualities of being within a creature or thing. And...don't most of the "spiritually aware" agree that if the outer does not match the inner, one should always trust the innermost, most?
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Re: what makes spirituality spiritual?

Postby rideforever » Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:02 pm

There is no outer and no inner. It is all one. Your job is to discard everything until you see that with your very eyes.

First, find your eyes.

It matters not if there is growing recognition of ... whatever. This is just a game that mankind has played for tens of thousands of years. You find the answer now, in this lifetime or you will die. Mankind will not find anything. The day you die mankind will be just as ignorant as it has been since it began.

Which was millions of years ago. Think of what that means. Mankind ? -there is nothing there. Only an individual can be free.

All this solid stuff. Is not solid. Just look at it, without the past, without the mind. What is it ? What is what ?

Matter, energy ... what is that ? Nothing, just stupid ideas. Just clinging to ideas.

Beyond .. must go far beyond.

Drop all of this.

The one is not human. Is not part of this species. Is not in this dimension. Does not inhabit this universe.

It is beyond.

How ? Struggle. Meditate. Love. Pray.
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Re: what makes spirituality spiritual?

Postby treasuretheday » Thu Jun 27, 2013 1:07 pm

rideforever wrote:It is all one.

Or maybe it is all three. In the language of sacred tradition, the emotional center carries the "reconciling force" that serves as a bridge between the mind and body and also between our usual physical world and the invisible, formless realm. All three centers need to be balanced, a person alertly poised in each, in order to fully occupy the now. A state of sleep, tradition holds, can always be traced back to finding oneself exclusively and unconsciously in one center only.
rideforever wrote:All this solid stuff. Is not solid.
Granted, the solidity of matter turns out to be not so solid afterall, upon entering the quantum world. Things are in a state of perpetual motion, a dance of becoming. But the instrument given to us to participate in this dance, is our heart. The heart about which I speak cannot be seen. "We can't take an x-ray, see through the external appearance, & glimpse the innermost aliveness and qualities of being."

This formlessness is what we are-- timeless and eternal. Mr. T. refers to "inner space" in his chapter entitled "The Discovery of Inner Space" in ANE. He writes, "Here are the two dimensions that make up reality, thingness and no-thingness, form and denial of form, which is the recognition that form is not who you are. Most people are so identified with the dimension of form, with sense perceptions...that the vital hidden half is missing from their lives."

Then again, when pondering the holographic nature of the universe, we find the very density and finiteness of this physical realm we live in reveals facets of the divine Being that can be revealed no other way.

There are logical inconsistencies that the mind can't accept. But the heart can hold them, & most importantly, they can be felt, experienced. Certainly very difficult to talk and write about....
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Re: what makes spirituality spiritual?

Postby rideforever » Thu Jun 27, 2013 1:55 pm

Which sacred tradition ? Can you give me a reference please.
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Re: what makes spirituality spiritual?

Postby treasuretheday » Thu Jun 27, 2013 2:51 pm

The earliest Christian theologians were first and foremost, visionaries. This esoteric tradition is quite rich. The desert fathers & Christian mystics were artisans and midwives of divine, sacred creativity.

The "doctrine" of the Trinity, did not spring forth from some mental calculation, but was inspired vision. The Trinity is a mandala of divine dynamism and one of Christianity's most precious treasures. With progressive training of the spiritual imagination, one's heart becomes educated to see things in "threes."
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Re: what makes spirituality spiritual?

Postby rideforever » Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:26 pm

Do you have a text or author ?
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Re: what makes spirituality spiritual?

Postby treasuretheday » Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:44 pm

Do you have a text or author?
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Re: what makes spirituality spiritual?

Postby SandyJoy » Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:56 pm

Oh Ride, when did you start relying on text and author? How about your own Seeing what You see and knowing what you know.

Those that Treasure is speaking about had seen the Truth about many things and put them into books, indeed, like the Kabbalah and like the words we now find in the Dead Sea Scrolls --many ancient texts discuss exactly the same things we are ruminating over now, about the 'ego' and God and what Is Life?

I have seen this exact same Truth that Life is a Three in One adventure; the Holy Trinity, The Father The Son and Holy Spirit, are ONE but yet they are each existing at once being three and being One.

One must above all else, learn to trust himself, trust his own insights and Glimmers of Truth and follow his own visions as they come to him. These things are 'seen' and we know they are true when they actually change us, make us better, heal us, transform us, cause a 'newness' and freshness in our self. We are changed by those visions. A real vision or insight will transform us. We come into a more balanced, calm, peaceful place as we become those qualities and attributes upon the discovery or un-covery of the Truth our Real Identity. We know what we have found when we are 'become new" or feel this Sweet Relief that pours over us, and drenches us in this 'anointing' of the Holy Spirit. You cannot deny that. You know it when it is with You. and no book or author has any authority over you, you are your own authority now, you are your own scientist, your own world explorer.

When you find even a small glimmer of your True Selfhood, you know what you found. there is no doubt. And as I say, you are transformed by this vision, so it proves Itself as You are touched by It.

We come with this Divine Imprint, God is in our DNA and we can indeed touch upon this Self that is our Original Nature and It contains Divine Intelligence so Life becomes understood and we can rely on Our Self and Our Self-Knowing. We can Trust Our Self. This is the most wonderful portal we can walk through, when we re-claim our True Identity and Live It.

That transforming Self-discovery does more for our world than any discovery scientists might make; The real deal happens when we make our own discovery of Identity and Live It, Brave and True.
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Re: what makes spirituality spiritual?

Postby rideforever » Thu Jun 27, 2013 6:13 pm

3-in-1 .. sounds like a shoe polish !!

Well Treasure's expression reminded me of Gurdjieff ... which also comes from the desert fathers / eastern church. I am particularly interested in working forming a union of the 3 centres (heart, consciousness, being) ... which is a different 3-in-1 to father/son/holy spirit ... (I remember Osho remarking that they were all guys and wondering if this was an early 'rainbow' movement) !!

I would say one must above all learn not to trust himself !!! But investigate himself.

And then you can trust HIMself ... if you see what I mean !

But ... I am interested in what you say nevertheless SJ, whether I can investigate myself better without external sources. Hmm ... I'll try that one too.
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Re: what makes spirituality spiritual?

Postby treasuretheday » Thu Jun 27, 2013 9:13 pm

Lovely post, SandyJoy! I always learn from and enjoy the way you express things through your writing.
SandyJoy wrote:the Holy Trinity, The Father The Son and Holy Spirit, are ONE but yet they are each existing at once being three and being One.
Well-said! I find layers and layers of truth are revealed increasingly. My understanding is deepening over time. That's the fun part!

Rideforever, I am somewhat acquainted with Gurdjieff through a book I found at my library that you recommended here on the forum to Fortune. I haven't delved into his work, but I liked much of what I was introduced to in that book. He uses the term "three-brained" if I remember correctly? Reminds me a little of Ken Wilber's Integral Vision--doing something daily for the body (yoga), mind (spiritual reading) and soul (meditation) to support spiritual growth.
rideforever wrote: I am particularly interested in working forming a union of the 3 centres (heart, consciousness, being) ...
That sounds marvelous. You'd be a superb teacher/guide/leader in this endeavor. I think your town is near a beach. You could hold sessions on the beach!
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