Ramana Maharishi's Fear Of Death Experience

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Re: Ramana Maharishi's Fear Of Death Experience

Postby EnterZenFromThere » Mon Sep 15, 2014 5:17 pm

Webwanderer wrote:Is it death you fear, or is it dying? Your answer will be helpful in finding more clarity.


That is such a clear and important distinction!

I'd been exploring this recently and trying to work out a simple way of putting it - thanks WW :)

I feel the same about death and dying. As much as I love living and exploring and creating in this particular human life, I'm looking forward to the experience beyond it.

Actually dying may be different. It depends how it happens. I imagine I'll produce a fun death for myself. A fun and easy death. Even if there is pain and suffering, then I'll explore that. I had a nasty illness recently and people kept saying "it must have been awful" and I looked at them confused "err, no it was actually kinda fun!" - it's funny how it is less socially acceptable to enjoy illness than to suffer through it. I'll only know for sure when it actually happens. But if this illness and other events around physical pain are any indicator, then, personally, I'm going to enjoy it! :lol:

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Re: Ramana Maharishi's Fear Of Death Experience

Postby ihavemorethanenough » Mon Sep 15, 2014 7:41 pm

Webwanderer wrote:
If it's death you fear, then what about it do you fear? Is it the concern over non-existence? Or is it a concern over potential punishment/exposure/judgment/hell/etc.? Or is it something else entirely. If you want to overcome your fear, let's explore a little.

As for me, I have no fear of death. Rather I look forward to it, kind of like going home after a long and arduous journey. Dying is another matter and I don't relish the potential for pain and lingering illness. I don't linger on the concern however. I'm sure it will be okay however it happens.

WW


Concern over judgement and punishment would be related to the fear of death if the judgement and punishment were to lead to death. Concern over hell would imply a fear of immortality, the fear of an eternal pain of an undying me. As to if it is a concern over something else entirely, I don't know if you're asking whether I have other fears that are unrelated to death or something else. So I am afraid, and I think that death is at the root of it.

If you were to live forever but had to accept pain and illness from time to time, would you look forward to the pain and illness in an otherwise healthy existence?
But is it because you know that you're going to have to go through dying that you look forward to death as a means of bypassing or fast forwarding dying and jumping straight into death? Or do you look forward to it for completely different reasons?
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Re: Ramana Maharishi's Fear Of Death Experience

Postby ihavemorethanenough » Mon Sep 15, 2014 8:02 pm

ashley72 wrote:The human fear circuit springs into action whenever we treat some thing as "danger". The thing we treat as dangerous doesn't need to have a physical presence (in the Now) even "mental thoughts" can trigger our fight or flight response. Simply thinking about future consequence can make a person shit themselves!

So if we are sitting thinking about "death" and we treat it as dangerous our body will react with symptoms of fear... Increased heart rate, sweaty palms. If we then treat the very symptoms of danger as danger we have a panic cycle... increase in fear symptoms. This kind of response to fear is a disorder of sorts... once you see the pattern you stop falling for the anxiety trick.

Repeated exposure to learnt fear.... and staying with the fear until it subsides is how we overcome any kind of panic cycle, OCD or GAD. If one tries to make the fear subside by avoidance the fear will actually be more intense on the next fear exposure. People that become prone to disorders usually habitually use avoidance to reduce fear. This is exactly what you don't want to do if you want to overcome irrational fear for good.

I'm almost 100% recovered from a range of disorders I use to have . I succeeded in doing this by exposing myself to those fears until I no longer got symptoms. I now almost completely zone out or switch off in situations I use to be extremely hyper vigilant & panicked. My brain primarily uses the diffused thinking mode rather than a focused mode in those situations.

Neurologically speaking I'm using my ventral stream not my dorsal stream in respect to attention.


If I am going to try to dissolve the second fear, or put an end to the trick, that still leaves the first fear intact, nothing has changed. I may have stopped second, third, or (insert number) of fears, but the first fear is still there, and they're not very different, it's all fear which comes at various degrees of strength.

So the second fear comes after first fear, but what brings first fear about? Can the first fear be overcome - not second or third fear, but first fear? And since mortal danger is at the root of first fear, and I know that I'm going to die, can first fear be overcome by thinking, at all? You say I can stop treating death as dangerous, and that once that is done the fear of death disappears. But how can I stop treating death as dangerous?
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Re: Ramana Maharishi's Fear Of Death Experience

Postby Webwanderer » Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:22 pm

ihavemorethanenough wrote:Concern over judgement and punishment would be related to the fear of death if the judgement and punishment were to lead to death. Concern over hell would imply a fear of immortality, the fear of an eternal pain of an undying me. As to if it is a concern over something else entirely, I don't know if you're asking whether I have other fears that are unrelated to death or something else. So I am afraid, and I think that death is at the root of it.

If you were to live forever but had to accept pain and illness from time to time, would you look forward to the pain and illness in an otherwise healthy existence?
But is it because you know that you're going to have to go through dying that you look forward to death as a means of bypassing or fast forwarding dying and jumping straight into death? Or do you look forward to it for completely different reasons?


This is rather confusing. You said you have a fear of death. I want to understand what you are referring to so as to offer some pointers to greater clarity on your concerns. Is it the aspect of being dead (relative to human life), or do you fear the experience of dying? What specifically concerns you?

Personally I have no fear of death as it is not a state at all. Rather it is a return to a greater reality from which we came - somewhat like waking up from a dream. Death gets bad-rapped because of ignorance and lack of understanding. If death is related to unconsciousness, then it is likely we are far more dead now than we will be once our physical form stops functioning.

Most religions and many philosophies, prey upon ignorance, spreading fear of Hell and damnation, or oblivion and non-existence, in order to enlist and control memberships. Most actually believe their own dogma that gets passed down regenerating its own sustaining energy.

Unaligned information is available however, for those with the courage to consider it, and are willing to do their own research and exploration. Fortunately, we all have an inner guidance system that is invested in our best interest that will help us through insight and inspiration once a sense of familiarity is established.

There is no need to live in fear when clarifying information is available to consider.

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Re: Ramana Maharishi's Fear Of Death Experience

Postby ashley72 » Tue Sep 16, 2014 12:06 am

The reason the scary movie industry exists is because human beings can produce a fear response....merely by thinking about danger.

We also have mirror neurons that allow us to empathize with other peoples dangerous situations. So if we're watching other people that are in danger we can also have a fear response to that danger.

You cannot actually deactivate first fear or the sense of danger unless your missing your Amygdala completely or you have reduced neural connections to the Amygdala....this is because the Amygdala is responsible for regulating the fear response. There is neurological evidence that nervous types have strong wiring to their Amygdala circuit.

Having first fear is not dysfunctional, it actually helps a person survive by making them more cautious.... so avoiding rational danger like rock climbing or risking behavior is a survival mechanism. However irrational fear that stops you from say flying in a 747 or agoraphobia a fear of open spaces need to be cured by exposure treatment.
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Re: Ramana Maharishi's Fear Of Death Experience

Postby ihavemorethanenough » Tue Sep 16, 2014 12:39 am

Webwanderer wrote:This is rather confusing. You said you have a fear of death. I want to understand what you are referring to so as to offer some pointers to greater clarity on your concerns. Is it the aspect of being dead (relative to human life), or do you fear the experience of dying? What specifically concerns you?

Personally I have no fear of death as it is not a state at all. Rather it is a return to a greater reality from which we came - somewhat like waking up from a dream. Death gets bad-rapped because of ignorance and lack of understanding. If death is related to unconsciousness, then it is likely we are far more dead now than we will be once our physical form stops functioning.

Most religions and many philosophies, prey upon ignorance, spreading fear of Hell and damnation, or oblivion and non-existence, in order to enlist and control memberships. Most actually believe their own dogma that gets passed down regenerating its own sustaining energy.

Unaligned information is available however, for those with the courage to consider it, and are willing to do their own research and exploration. Fortunately, we all have an inner guidance system that is invested in our best interest that will help us through insight and inspiration once a sense of familiarity is established.

There is no need to live in fear when clarifying information is available to consider.

WW


Have you never had a fear of death, or do you no longer have it? If you have never had it I guess I can see why you're raising the question "what is it about death that is frightening?". I don't know what follows death, therefore I can't point to it and say that is what I fear, because I don't know what that is. So I fear death. Death is what I fear about death.

Waking up from a dream implies somebody goes to sleep and then wakes up, there was sleep but no death. You seem to think there's a greater reality beyond death that awaits us, and that this present existence is like a dream. Whatever it is, I don't know what is beyond this, so I fear my death. I guess I fear the end of everything that I know. If we accept death to be the end of whatever it is we know, then you may be surprised to find out, for example, that the knowledge that there's something greater beyond life which awaits dies with you.

Are you saying that the fear of death has its roots in organised religion, and that had it not been for their spreading of it upon the ignorant none of us would have faced the fear of death today?
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Re: Ramana Maharishi's Fear Of Death Experience

Postby ihavemorethanenough » Tue Sep 16, 2014 12:43 am

ashley72 wrote:The reason the scary movie industry exists is because human beings can produce a fear response....merely by thinking about danger.

We also have mirror neurons that allow us to empathize with other peoples dangerous situations. So if we're watching other people that are in danger we can also have a fear response to that danger.

You cannot actually deactivate first fear or the sense of danger unless your missing your Amygdala completely or you have reduced neural connections to the Amygdala....this is because the Amygdala is responsible for regulating the fear response. There is neurological evidence that nervous types have strong wiring to their Amygdala circuit.

Having first fear is not dysfunctional, it actually helps a person survive by making them more cautious.... so avoiding rational danger like rock climbing or risking behavior is a survival mechanism. However irrational fear that stops you from say flying in a 747 or agoraphobia a fear of open spaces need to be cured by exposure treatment.


The reason why I will avoid open spaces, closed spaces, people, etc, is because I fear for myself. I think that if I expose myself to certain places fear and terror will get a hold of me. Fear of death is at the root of all my fears.
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Re: Ramana Maharishi's Fear Of Death Experience

Postby Webwanderer » Tue Sep 16, 2014 1:31 am

ihavemorethanenough wrote:Have you never had a fear of death, or do you no longer have it? If you have never had it I guess I can see why you're raising the question "what is it about death that is frightening?". I don't know what follows death, therefore I can't point to it and say that is what I fear, because I don't know what that is. So I fear death. Death is what I fear about death.

Although it's been quite a while since I held any fear of death, even when it was present I gave it little fearful thought as I was young. But I had a natural curiosity about what happens at and after death that led me to a consistent search for answers. That was over 40 years ago. During those years I did a depth of study that few people do.

In that time I found overwhelming evidence that conscious life continues on at the death of the body and that death is more of an awakening, not and end. Not only that, but also that we, as conscious beings, existed before our birth and came to this experience with purpose. The evidence indicates that this human existence is just one experience in an eternal life of possible experiences.

I didn't just make this up whole cloth. There is plenty of evidence to explore if one wants to learn and prosper from a perspective that transcends the entrained limitations of human identification.

Waking up from a dream implies somebody goes to sleep and then wakes up, there was sleep but no death. You seem to think there's a greater reality beyond death that awaits us, and that this present existence is like a dream.

I do indeed and I'm certainly not alone. This forum contains many members who have a fairly clear sense of it as well.

I wouldn't take the dream metaphor too far, but it is fairly useful.

Whatever it is, I don't know what is beyond this, so I fear my death. I guess I fear the end of everything that I know. If we accept death to be the end of whatever it is we know, then you may be surprised to find out, for example, that the knowledge that there's something greater beyond life which awaits dies with you.

You can live with your fear or you can do something about it. What is stopping you from exploring the evidence? As the famous quote goes, "the truth will make you free". There is a sub-forum on this board:

viewforum.php?f=47

that is filled with discussions and links to resources addressing the life after death question. If you want to know what evidence is available, there is years worth of resources to consider. Of course you are the arbiter of truth for you. But it is also you who must take the steps to attain and consider what knowledge is available.

ihavemorethanenough wrote:Are you saying that the fear of death has its roots in organised religion, and that had it not been for their spreading of it upon the ignorant none of us would have faced the fear of death today?

Not at all. Fear of death at its root is independent of religion. I am saying that fear of what might happen at death, if they don't acquiesce to the churches doctrines, works in the churches interest in maintaining organized control over the lives of their membership. Control is access to money, and fear of hell is likely worse than fear of death. It is a powerful controller. Neither holds much merit however, and a clear understanding frees one from fear of death and religious coercion.

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Re: Ramana Maharishi's Fear Of Death Experience

Postby ihavemorethanenough » Tue Sep 16, 2014 2:07 am

I have seen some near death experience reports, usually from people. But even if I am to suppose that I am going to live forever, the actual fear that I experience is what devastates me. Do you never feel fear?
People have existed before I was born, sure. They too went through life, experienced fear, and died. I don't remember going through that. This is my first time.
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Re: Ramana Maharishi's Fear Of Death Experience

Postby Webwanderer » Tue Sep 16, 2014 2:22 am

Rather than look at a couple of reports, make it a study. Learn all you can, so much that it brings a shift in perspective, not just a couple of gee whiz anecdotes. If you study enough, insight will blossom from within you, and fear will diminish as the light of understanding increases.

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Re: Ramana Maharishi's Fear Of Death Experience

Postby ihavemorethanenough » Tue Sep 16, 2014 3:22 am

Webwanderer wrote:Rather than look at a couple of reports, make it a study. Learn all you can, so much that it brings a shift in perspective, not just a couple of gee whiz anecdotes. If you study enough, insight will blossom from within you, and fear will diminish as the light of understanding increases.

WW


How can we study about life after death? By making a study of near death experiences? Do you not see something wrong with that? They are not after death experiences, and there cannot be after death experience studies.
I read a few reports, and saw some videos, among which was one of a certain Dr Eben Alexander. The video I saw can be found on youtube if you search for "Dr Eben Alexander III - Neurosurgeon - Unique NDE - Meningitis - Proof Of Heaven".
And if we accept before what you said of most religions and philosophies spreading ideas of hell and heaven, or non-existence, in order to enlist and control memberships, I can say the same about this guy and all others who claim to have after death knowledge or experience. Dr Eben Alexander wrote a book about his NDE and it became a best seller, and he's planning on writing a second book which will also become another best seller, and who knows maybe others after it. The fear of death is real, and people who say they know that there is no death etc, are aware of this fear and are trying to enlist and control memberships by spreading their stories and ideas, don't you think?
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Re: Ramana Maharishi's Fear Of Death Experience

Postby Webwanderer » Tue Sep 16, 2014 6:34 am

ihavemorethanenough wrote:ow can we study about life after death? By making a study of near death experiences? Do you not see something wrong with that? They are not after death experiences, and there cannot be after death experience studies.

After years of study and many a discussion with those offering similar concern, I realized that NDE or near death experience is not entirely accurate to the phenomena. In many cases it is accurate, in others the term NDE is insufficient. A more accurate term for many experiences would be 'TDE' or temporary death experience.

NDE's would be indicative of those undergoing physical trauma that results in an out of body experience where they see their body and their physical surroundings. TDE's would be indicative of those actually experiencing the realm of the greater reality from which all come and ultimately return to. It is temporary in that they returned to continue there physical life experience, most often with new insight and perspective as to the greater nature of reality.

No doubt some, who have a conviction that contradicts this view, will call foul for reinventing the terminology. But the study of the phenomena is still young and like many studies more inclusive terms must be applied as understanding increases. So, TDE, or temporary death experience, is a more inclusive term that speaks more accurately to the actual experience.

That said, even with the claims that NDE's are not legitimate because it's not actual everlasting permanent death, I offer an analogy that seems fair to the experience. If one should go to the rim of the grand canyon and gaze upon its depths on a bright and clear day, while meeting some of its inhabitants who dwell within it, and yet not actually explore its totality, could it be said the experience of the grand canyon, limited though it may be, is not real? Could it be said that there was nothing of value learned from seeing its vastness and beauty from the rim? Would you discount its existence and the validity of the report because the observer walked back from the experience and returned to his or her origin?

If you received a thousand, or ten thousand, or a hundred thousand similar reports, would you discount them all as irrelevant because they did not stay? Would you not at least give them a fair hearing and compare their experiences for potential commonality and value?

Of course TDE's are not the only source of information from the greater reality. There are channels and mediums and OBE'rs as well, some going back centuries. Have you read Swedenborg? There are striking similarities that strongly support each other. For one with an intense interest, be it from fear of the unknown, or a strong curiosity for an inevitable experience one day to be had, would it not be prudent to explore all genuine possibilities?

And if we accept before what you said of most religions and philosophies spreading ideas of hell and heaven, or non-existence, in order to enlist and control memberships, I can say the same about this guy and all others who claim to have after death knowledge or experience. Dr Eben Alexander wrote a book about his NDE and it became a best seller, and he's planning on writing a second book which will also become another best seller, and who knows maybe others after it. The fear of death is real, and people who say they know that there is no death etc, are aware of this fear and are trying to enlist and control memberships by spreading their stories and ideas, don't you think?

Well, no I don't think this at all. While is is always possible that some may make money off their books, they are few in comparison to the vast number of experiencers who kept silent for years fearing, and often experiencing criticism and even professional detriment. Most TDE'rs undergo profound change after their experience. Almost all lose any fear of death and equally lose interest in great wealth. Here's a quote to the point from a well known NDE/TDE researcher Melvin Morse, M.D.:

“I have never interviewed anyone who had a near-death experience who told me that they came back to make more money or to spend more time at their jobs away from their families… Instead, they become convinced that they need to be more loving and kind. They react to their experience by living life to its fullest. They believe their lives have a purpose, even if that purpose is obscure to them. Invariably it involves concepts such as love of family or service to others. They seem to know that the love they create while living will be reflected and radiated back to them when they die.”
— Researcher Melvin Morse, M.D., from his book, Parting Visions


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Re: Ramana Maharishi's Fear Of Death Experience

Postby viking55803 » Tue Sep 16, 2014 2:29 pm

A truly life threatening experience is perhaps the best way to eliminate fear of death. Twenty two years ago I suffered a major heart attack. It came out of the blue, at age 43, when I was playing hockey. Up to that point, I had been a competitive endurance athlete and something like a heart attack was the last thing I expected to happen to me.

In any case, what stuck with me was the feeling of wonderful peace I felt as I totally surrendered to the experience (at that point, what choice did I have?.) I never again experienced the illusion that I was in anything like in "control" of my life or death. This is purely an ego invention. I may wake up tomorrow with a pain that never goes away. Yes, I take very good care of my body, but it has nothing to do with wanting to live longer - just living more fully. Death, when it comes, will be welcome.
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Re: Ramana Maharishi's Fear Of Death Experience

Postby EnterZenFromThere » Tue Sep 16, 2014 3:11 pm

viking55803 wrote:I never again experienced the illusion that I was in anything like in "control" of my life or death. This is purely an ego invention. I may wake up tomorrow with a pain that never goes away. Yes, I take very good care of my body, but it has nothing to do with wanting to live longer - just living more fully. Death, when it comes, will be welcome.


This is interesting. I like your point about surrendering. It's lovely to surrender!

What about responsibility? Do you feel responsibility or is this gone along with your sense of control?

Love

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Re: Ramana Maharishi's Fear Of Death Experience

Postby ihavemorethanenough » Tue Sep 16, 2014 3:57 pm

Webwanderer wrote:
ihavemorethanenough wrote:ow can we study about life after death? By making a study of near death experiences? Do you not see something wrong with that? They are not after death experiences, and there cannot be after death experience studies.

After years of study and many a discussion with those offering similar concern, I realized that NDE or near death experience is not entirely accurate to the phenomena. In many cases it is accurate, in others the term NDE is insufficient. A more accurate term for many experiences would be 'TDE' or temporary death experience.

NDE's would be indicative of those undergoing physical trauma that results in an out of body experience where they see their body and their physical surroundings. TDE's would be indicative of those actually experiencing the realm of the greater reality from which all come and ultimately return to. It is temporary in that they returned to continue there physical life experience, most often with new insight and perspective as to the greater nature of reality.

No doubt some, who have a conviction that contradicts this view, will call foul for reinventing the terminology. But the study of the phenomena is still young and like many studies more inclusive terms must be applied as understanding increases. So, TDE, or temporary death experience, is a more inclusive term that speaks more accurately to the actual experience.

That said, even with the claims that NDE's are not legitimate because it's not actual everlasting permanent death, I offer an analogy that seems fair to the experience. If one should go to the rim of the grand canyon and gaze upon its depths on a bright and clear day, while meeting some of its inhabitants who dwell within it, and yet not actually explore its totality, could it be said the experience of the grand canyon, limited though it may be, is not real? Could it be said that there was nothing of value learned from seeing its vastness and beauty from the rim? Would you discount its existence and the validity of the report because the observer walked back from the experience and returned to his or her origin?

If you received a thousand, or ten thousand, or a hundred thousand similar reports, would you discount them all as irrelevant because they did not stay? Would you not at least give them a fair hearing and compare their experiences for potential commonality and value?

Of course TDE's are not the only source of information from the greater reality. There are channels and mediums and OBE'rs as well, some going back centuries. Have you read Swedenborg? There are striking similarities that strongly support each other. For one with an intense interest, be it from fear of the unknown, or a strong curiosity for an inevitable experience one day to be had, would it not be prudent to explore all genuine possibilities?

And if we accept before what you said of most religions and philosophies spreading ideas of hell and heaven, or non-existence, in order to enlist and control memberships, I can say the same about this guy and all others who claim to have after death knowledge or experience. Dr Eben Alexander wrote a book about his NDE and it became a best seller, and he's planning on writing a second book which will also become another best seller, and who knows maybe others after it. The fear of death is real, and people who say they know that there is no death etc, are aware of this fear and are trying to enlist and control memberships by spreading their stories and ideas, don't you think?

Well, no I don't think this at all. While is is always possible that some may make money off their books, they are few in comparison to the vast number of experiencers who kept silent for years fearing, and often experiencing criticism and even professional detriment. Most TDE'rs undergo profound change after their experience. Almost all lose any fear of death and equally lose interest in great wealth. Here's a quote to the point from a well known NDE/TDE researcher Melvin Morse, M.D.:

“I have never interviewed anyone who had a near-death experience who told me that they came back to make more money or to spend more time at their jobs away from their families… Instead, they become convinced that they need to be more loving and kind. They react to their experience by living life to its fullest. They believe their lives have a purpose, even if that purpose is obscure to them. Invariably it involves concepts such as love of family or service to others. They seem to know that the love they create while living will be reflected and radiated back to them when they die.”
— Researcher Melvin Morse, M.D., from his book, Parting Visions


WW


I don't know what comes after death. I don't share those experiences with them. I have never had an experience like that so I can't relate. I am not even interested in them. I share some things with people on this planet, however, like being hurt and hurting others. I think we all have that in common.
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