Ramana Maharishi's Fear Of Death Experience

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Re: Ramana Maharishi's Fear Of Death Experience

Postby Webwanderer » Tue Sep 16, 2014 5:43 pm

ihavemorethanenough wrote:I don't know what comes after death. I don't share those experiences with them. I have never had an experience like that so I can't relate. I am not even interested in them. I share some things with people on this planet, however, like being hurt and hurting others. I think we all have that in common.

We will all have a death experience. We all share that in common with all other people on this planet. The reports of those 'pioneers' that have gone a good distance in that experience and report back its landscape can be valuable insight to anyone willing to look. Discount it if you wish, but its value has been demonstrated in those who consider its application in their own lives. Best wishes.

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Re: Ramana Maharishi's Fear Of Death Experience

Postby Enlightened2B » Tue Sep 16, 2014 5:44 pm

viking55803 wrote:A truly life threatening experience is perhaps the best way to eliminate fear of death. Twenty two years ago I suffered a major heart attack. It came out of the blue, at age 43, when I was playing hockey. Up to that point, I had been a competitive endurance athlete and something like a heart attack was the last thing I expected to happen to me.

In any case, what stuck with me was the feeling of wonderful peace I felt as I totally surrendered to the experience (at that point, what choice did I have?.) I never again experienced the illusion that I was in anything like in "control" of my life or death. This is purely an ego invention. I may wake up tomorrow with a pain that never goes away. Yes, I take very good care of my body, but it has nothing to do with wanting to live longer - just living more fully. Death, when it comes, will be welcome.


Yeah, I can resonate with this. For me, fearing death is not an option anymore. I welcome it when it arrives. It will be a wonderful end to this incredible journey via physicality and opportunity to finally 'come home' (so to speak).

On the other hand, living more fully meaning, living without pain and disease is a bit different.....as WW indicated earlier in the thread the difference between fearing 'dying' as opposed to fearing 'death' are two very different things. While I don't fear death at all, I still yearn for perfect health which I don't have in order to more fully engage in this physical experience.
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Re: Ramana Maharishi's Fear Of Death Experience

Postby ihavemorethanenough » Wed Sep 17, 2014 12:50 am

Webwanderer wrote:
ihavemorethanenough wrote:I don't know what comes after death. I don't share those experiences with them. I have never had an experience like that so I can't relate. I am not even interested in them. I share some things with people on this planet, however, like being hurt and hurting others. I think we all have that in common.


We will all have a death experience. We all share that in common with all other people on this planet. The reports of those 'pioneers' that have gone a good distance in that experience and report back its landscape can be valuable insight to anyone willing to look. Discount it if you wish, but its value has been demonstrated in those who consider its application in their own lives. Best wishes.

WW


Are you leaving? I had a lot of questions and things I wanted to talk about. First of all I don't think I understand how we're all going to have a death experience. Could you please say a little more about that?
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Re: Ramana Maharishi's Fear Of Death Experience

Postby Webwanderer » Wed Sep 17, 2014 1:26 am

It sounded to me as if you were closing the door on discussions. The idea, I thought, was to overcome your fear of death. However, if you have questions I'm happy to respond as best I can.

I had a lot of questions and things I wanted to talk about. First of all I don't think I understand how we're all going to have a death experience. Could you please say a little more about that?


Do you know of anyone who is not going to die? Everyone will. Now the question is, what is the nature of that event? Is it the end? Or is it a beginning? Or maybe both in their own context? Is it a transition? Does consciousness, one's sense of self, survive in another form? Or does it disintegrate? Is the answer even knowable? Is there any evidence? If so, what is it?

Lots of good questions.

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Re: Ramana Maharishi's Fear Of Death Experience

Postby ihavemorethanenough » Wed Sep 17, 2014 3:12 am

Webwanderer wrote:It sounded to me as if you were closing the door on discussions. The idea, I thought, was to overcome your fear of death. However, if you have questions I'm happy to respond as best I can.

I had a lot of questions and things I wanted to talk about. First of all I don't think I understand how we're all going to have a death experience. Could you please say a little more about that?


Do you know of anyone who is not going to die? Everyone will. Now the question is, what is the nature of that event? Is it the end? Or is it a beginning? Or maybe both in their own context? Is it a transition? Does consciousness, one's sense of self, survive in another form? Or does it disintegrate? Is the answer even knowable? Is there any evidence? If so, what is it?

Lots of good questions.

WW


I thought the same thing, ww. I had two questions in connection to something ashley72 said. He said that in order to deal with the fear of death one had to suspend the fear of death and expose oneself to the idea of immortality. So I had one question relating to the fear of death, which was how is the fear of death suspended (or how to stop first fear) and the other concerning immortality. I only got to ask the first question, so far. Asheley72 wrote about how to deal with various kinds of irrational fears but said that one can't get rid of first fear. Me and you began to talk about near death experiences, and whether they can help stop first fear, therefore stop all fear at the root. I think the discussion is wide open. I think what we're talking about is related to both questions at the same time.

Webwanderer wrote:Do you know of anyone who is not going to die?"
No. If you had put it that way instead of calling it a death experience I wouldn't have asked, but you called it an expereince that's why I asked. I don't think I understand if you're saying that everyone's going to die or that everyone's going to have a death experience.
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Re: Ramana Maharishi's Fear Of Death Experience

Postby Webwanderer » Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:50 am

ihavemorethanenough wrote:I had two questions in connection to something ashley72 said. He said that in order to deal with the fear of death one had to suspend the fear of death and expose oneself to the idea of immortality. So I had one question relating to the fear of death, which was how is the fear of death suspended (or how to stop first fear) and the other concerning immortality. I only got to ask the first question, so far. Asheley72 wrote about how to deal with various kinds of irrational fears but said that one can't get rid of first fear. Me and you began to talk about near death experiences, and whether they can help stop first fear, therefore stop all fear at the root. I think the discussion is wide open. I think what we're talking about is related to both questions at the same time.

The way I see it, one is a psychological approach of simply dealing with an effect of a concern generated by either a false belief, or ignorance, of the true nature of the concern. I'm not saying it can't be helpful if it alleviates the unwanted fear, but my take is that replacing ignorance, or misguided beliefs, with understanding and clarity, is a far more lasting and wide ranging solution to the problem.

ihavemorethanenough wrote:
Webwanderer wrote:
Do you know of anyone who is not going to die?"

No. If you had put it that way instead of calling it a death experience I wouldn't have asked, but you called it an expereince that's why I asked. I don't think I understand if you're saying that everyone's going to die or that everyone's going to have a death experience.

I refer to it as a death 'experience' because that is more accurate than simply saying 'death' which is grossly misunderstood as a finality and causes many people to live in unnecessary fear. As far a distinction between death and death experience, I see a difference of only of perspective. Death as a finality is an imagining based on physical appearances and assumptions from a limited view of life. Death as an experience is based on evidence.

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Re: Ramana Maharishi's Fear Of Death Experience

Postby EnterZenFromThere » Wed Sep 17, 2014 8:29 am

I'd just like to say thank you for these wonderful posts here. I just glanced over and saw that WW you have over 5000 posts. I can't think of a post I've seen from you that doesn't resonate with kindness and patience and wisdom. I wonder of the inspiration that has filled those posts and the radiance that has brought Us All. We're blessed to have you here. Truly.

Love,

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Re: Ramana Maharishi's Fear Of Death Experience

Postby ihavemorethanenough » Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:43 am

Webwanderer wrote:The way I see it, one is a psychological approach of simply dealing with an effect of a concern generated by either a false belief, or ignorance, of the true nature of the concern. I'm not saying it can't be helpful if it alleviates the unwanted fear, but my take is that replacing ignorance, or misguided beliefs, with understanding and clarity, is a far more lasting and wide ranging solution to the problem.


Yep, that's what I thought you were saying. So, what is the knowledge that will deal with the fear at the root that should replace the psychological approach that aims to deal with the symptoms of first fear?


Webwanderer wrote:I refer to it as a death 'experience' because that is more accurate than simply saying 'death' which is grossly misunderstood as a finality and causes many people to live in unnecessary fear. As far a distinction between death and death experience, I see a difference of only of perspective. Death as a finality is an imagining based on physical appearances and assumptions from a limited view of life. Death as an experience is based on evidence.


Ok, why is it an experience? Do you mean death as a phenomenon, as viewed from "above"? For example, I know that I'm going to die, but I know that when I die there'll still be people left alive and they won't all die with me at the same time, and that other people will be born after I'm dead, etc. If you're not talking about that, but about death as an experience, then what about it makes death an experience? What is the evidence that death as an experience is not an imagining?
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Re: Ramana Maharishi's Fear Of Death Experience

Postby Webwanderer » Wed Sep 17, 2014 2:14 pm

EnterZenFromThere wrote:I'd just like to say thank you for these wonderful posts here. I just glanced over and saw that WW you have over 5000 posts. I can't think of a post I've seen from you that doesn't resonate with kindness and patience and wisdom. I wonder of the inspiration that has filled those posts and the radiance that has brought Us All. We're blessed to have you here. Truly.

Thanks Jack. I've been on this forum a lot of years now and I'm grateful and appreciative for the opportunity to explore my own perspectives with so many wonderful souls. I've grown a lot in my time here thanks to those who willingly explore with me. If others have gained a little insight from my words, all the better. In truth, I'm not sure all of it is my words at all. Often when I set fingers to keyboard I don't know where it will lead. It's more feel than thought and it flows as it does. Anyway, thanks to you and all the other beautiful explorers who grace these pages.

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Re: Ramana Maharishi's Fear Of Death Experience

Postby EnterZenFromThere » Wed Sep 17, 2014 2:42 pm

Webwanderer wrote:Thanks Jack. I've been on this forum a lot of years now and I'm grateful and appreciative for the opportunity to explore my own perspectives with so many wonderful souls. I've grown a lot in my time here thanks to those who willingly explore with me. If others have gained a little insight from my words, all the better. In truth, I'm not sure all of it is my words at all. Often when I set fingers to keyboard I don't know where it will lead. It's more feel than thought and it flows as it does. Anyway, thanks to you and all the other beautiful explorers who grace these pages.

WW


What a gorgeous post! So much Grace in the recognition of the co-creative nature of It All!

I totally relate with the not knowing for sure if it's your words. From where I am, that depends on what you mean by 'your'. The One is The Many. Each of The Many play their part in All That Is - some more closely to specific elements than others. As some leaves are closer to others but all the same tree. And so, what I say here, though arising spontaneously and flowing easily in a manner less acknowledged in current human society, is all Me. But what I am, flows beyond the body/mind that most people relate to. You and I are Us. We are All and All is One.

Haha - oops I try not to get all mystical but sometimes it just feels right :P

I think what I'm trying to say is that even the flowing of your intuitive Self is You and You deserve the credit for the words that flow. The words you write are beautiful and they deserve celebration! Threading the eye of the needle pass boasts and apologies to delightful and joyful acceptance!

Love,

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Re: Ramana Maharishi's Fear Of Death Experience

Postby ihavemorethanenough » Wed Sep 17, 2014 2:52 pm

I guess you haven't had a death experience yet, have you, ww? Or if you do, please say so. If not, I wonder why you believe that there is. If you tell me there is such a thing as death exeprience, I will ask you about it. I'll say have you had one, (which should have been my very first question). If someone says there is heaven, it is their responsibility to keep it to themselves if it can't be made clear to others that there is a "heaven", I think, it is that simple, instead of creating ideas for people to cling to. No? Also, I won't say another word if it upset you, so I'm out until you come back.
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Re: Ramana Maharishi's Fear Of Death Experience

Postby Webwanderer » Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:44 pm

ihavemorethanenough wrote:So, what is the knowledge that will deal with the fear at the root that should replace the psychological approach that aims to deal with the symptoms of first fear?

The truth about dying.

Ok, why is it an experience? Do you mean death as a phenomenon, as viewed from "above"? For example, I know that I'm going to die, but I know that when I die there'll still be people left alive and they won't all die with me at the same time, and that other people will be born after I'm dead, etc.

These are good questions. Keep asking, not just of me, but life itself for clear and genuine answers. If you truly want to know what happens at the death of the body you will find it. Just keep after it.

Death is an experience because consciousness, who and what you truly are, survives it. While people will be left alive when you experience death, you will be alive after the experience. Death is a moment of transition, not the end of conscious being. The only 'thing' that has a finality is the physical body. It was never intended to be a permanent residence.

If you're not talking about that, but about death as an experience, then what about it makes death an experience? What is the evidence that death as an experience is not an imagining?

Earlier in this life I was in law enforcement and worked several years as an investigator. I mention this because it gave me a clear understanding of the nature and types of evidence, and practical experience of following where the evidence leads.

There are three basic types of evidence. They are: hard evidence such as finger prints, DNA, and substances. There is circumstantial evidence such as a person matching a description or being at a certain place at a certain time. And there is anecdotal evidence such as eyewitness testimonies. All are admissible in court. None are necessarily proof. When it comes to evidence of life after death there is lots of each. It is up to the individual however to explore it and weight it as seems reasonable. And 'seems' includes both intellect and feel.

Evidence for ongoing life includes NDE's, of which there are tens of thousands, OBE's which there is also a large number of reports, conscious contact with those who have died, past and between life recall and others. While most of the evidence is anecdotal there is much that has been supported by physical corroboration.

Evidence however is cumulative. Any one account should be taken with a healthy skepticism. A thousand accounts is reasonably more supportive. Each of us must act as judge and jury allowing the evidence to lead where it may not making assumptions too early. Conclusions should come through our feeling nature, gradually, and not through any single account. Of course for an NDE experiencer him/herself, a single event can be quite conclusive.

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Re: Ramana Maharishi's Fear Of Death Experience

Postby Webwanderer » Wed Sep 17, 2014 6:29 pm

ihavemorethanenough wrote:I guess you haven't had a death experience yet, have you, ww? Or if you do, please say so. If not, I wonder why you believe that there is. If you tell me there is such a thing as death exeprience, I will ask you about it.

I have not had a Near or Temporary death experience. I did have a contact with my father the night after he died. He showed up in a dream to tell me he was okay and to tell the others (family members) that he was okay. He had held some concern prior to his crossing that he would not remember his loved ones in 'heaven'. Something some preacher had told him. We had talked about it at the time and I encouraged him not to buy into that belief. He died a few months later.

That was over 30 years ago. Since then I have had thousands of dreams, almost none of which I remember clearly if at all. That one was different and unique however. It's nearly as clear now as it was all those years ago. As I have studied NDE's, TDE's and the like, they all seem to have that vividness and memorable clarity in common.

If not, I wonder why you believe that there is. If you tell me there is such a thing as death exeprience, I will ask you about it.

By now it should be clear. In my perspective the evidence overwhelmingly supports it. Now, I'm not nearly so clear on the details as one who has actually had direct experience, but that doesn't mean I don't have a sense of it.

Consider some other interesting evidence. If you decide doing your own exploration is worth your time, look at how those who have returned have returned change beings. Their new approach to life is evidence of something magnificent. The experiential effect of the overwhelming Love, and the grandeur of the environment, and the expansiveness of consciousness, the sense of being in their celestial home, and the life review where all is laid bare but without any judgment save our own, is more than a little bit convincing that what they experienced was real. The change that nearly all demonstrate in their lives is no small matter.

If someone says there is heaven, it is their responsibility to keep it to themselves if it can't be made clear to others that there is a "heaven", I think, it is that simple, instead of creating ideas for people to cling to. No?

No. Quite the opposite. People with unique knowledge and experience have every right to share what they will. For some it is too personal and they need time, sometimes years, to grok it. Others see the value of reporting the 'good news' that life is forever and there is no hell or judgment other than of their own creation. I for one am thankful that they had the courage and inspiration to share. It has made a very positive difference in my life. It has done so for many, many, others as well. Read the literature and see for yourself. Don't be frozen by fear. The truth will make you free.

Also, I won't say another word if it upset you, so I'm out until you come back.

Thanks for your concern, but there is no need to worry about my sensibilities. I'm more than fine and I enjoy this type of dialog. I only wish you the best in finding your way to clarity. But it is always your choice as to where and how to proceed. As to when I respond to your questions, I do so as best I can. Be patient, I have other issues to which I must also attend.

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Re: Ramana Maharishi's Fear Of Death Experience

Postby Webwanderer » Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:52 pm

I would like to offer a word about belief. I don't want you to, nor am I encouraging you to, believe in life after death, or eternal life, or NDE's, or TDE's, or any such concept. Such a choice would be just another thought construct. I am encouraging you to investigate the reports and accounts of those who claim to have direct experience of one type or another that suggest there is more to life than this short physical life span. Whatever movement in conscious perspective that may occur should need no encouragement. It is just the natural outcome of growing understanding.

Build a body of knowledge just to know the state of the philosophy. There's plenty of science that can help as well. Quantum physics and quantum field theory is very suggestive that consciousness transcends the physical. So much so that the physical is just an expression of consciousness. (Look up the work of John Hagelin, a physicist and a practitioner of Transcendental Meditation.) There are others as well.

The idea is to increase our knowledge and understanding, not develop beliefs. Beliefs may or may not come as a byproduct, but the point is reduce ignorance. And please don't be offended by the word ignorance. We are all ignorant to one degree or another. It is simply a reference to not knowing, and it is certain that there is a lot we don't yet know. So let's do all we can to bring in the light of knowledge so as to dispel our ignorance however we can.

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Re: Ramana Maharishi's Fear Of Death Experience

Postby ihavemorethanenough » Sun Sep 21, 2014 2:57 am

Webwanderer wrote:I would like to offer a word about belief. I don't want you to, nor am I encouraging you to, believe in life after death, or eternal life, or NDE's, or TDE's, or any such concept. Such a choice would be just another thought construct. I am encouraging you to investigate the reports and accounts of those who claim to have direct experience of one type or another that suggest there is more to life than this short physical life span. Whatever movement in conscious perspective that may occur should need no encouragement. It is just the natural outcome of growing understanding.

Build a body of knowledge just to know the state of the philosophy. There's plenty of science that can help as well. Quantum physics and quantum field theory is very suggestive that consciousness transcends the physical. So much so that the physical is just an expression of consciousness. (Look up the work of John Hagelin, a physicist and a practitioner of Transcendental Meditation.) There are others as well.

The idea is to increase our knowledge and understanding, not develop beliefs. Beliefs may or may not come as a byproduct, but the point is reduce ignorance. And please don't be offended by the word ignorance. We are all ignorant to one degree or another. It is simply a reference to not knowing, and it is certain that there is a lot we don't yet know. So let's do all we can to bring in the light of knowledge so as to dispel our ignorance however we can.

WW


Thanks for the kind word of encouragement. I had read one from a link on this site and heard another on youtube. I might read or hear others, as well. But at the moment I am just at the beginning.
--------
From what I have read, If I've understood it correctly, it seems that both Ashley72 and you, WW, are saying that one should think about immortality. But there's one difference: Ashley72 says exposure to the idea of immortality, while you say exposure to immortality. I think this is the difference, though I may be wrong, especially since I also read you say that you do not want me to form any belief based on any thought constructs, so idk.

In investigation, you say that none of the evidence is necessarily proof. I think comparing and approaching what we're talking about through law enforcement investigation and methods the way you have described is not appropriate. In law enforcement we're not interested in the scene itself, but in what happened, where it happened, and most importantly who's responsible. So It's not appropriate because in law enforcement, there is the evidence that you mentioned, like the person seen, and the scene, crime-scene, where the evidence was found, which is a place that we can all go to and actually see, but when we talk about the evidence of near death experiences, we can't go to the scene to look at the evidence, we can't see any person there, nor can we see the place, but we talk about the evidence. The evidence is in the scene, it is the scene, and we are interested in it, but we can't go there.

Because we are here, we can't go there. Say I remember that I saw the scene, the rest of the world is ignorant, and I tell the world what I remember. Wouldn't you say there is an element of faith that is essential if the world is to believe what I remember? So ok, you say the idea is to build knowledge contained in the reports, but if I qusetion the report itself, what is the point?

I'm not sure if your central argument, however, is that whatever is isn't “me”, and that what is won't die, or whether what you're saying is that the “me” won't die, or both. But according to Quantum physics and quantum field theory, the "me" will die, right?

When I asked "what makes death an experience? What is the evidence that death as an experience is not an imagining?" I was wondering what experience is. Say I remember that I saw the scene, I would be persuaded by my memory of it to think the things I think about it. Because of my memory, I start to name what I saw using the language that I judge as insufficient to describe it and call it my experience of ongoing life. I bring to the naming process everything that I know, all the language that I know, from the past. The rest of the world who hasn't any memories of the scene can't know that the memory I have of what I saw is what constitutes an experience of it before I tell them those specific memories. After I tell it to the world, the world will have the idea of what constitutes an experience. And what they've read about it, for the rest of the world who have no memories of having seen it, becomes the imagining of that experience. Now if I as the rest of the world believe what I'm reading about it, then I will have a belief based on me imagining those memories that the one remembering them has named as the evidence of ongoing life or something else, and told me about them.

My question is is there are way to be exposed to immortality without having to rely on imagination, or is there a way to know that I won't die without having to rely on NDEs or the like? Can I know directly that I won't die?

Because, I'm going to think, that if my knowledge that I won't die doesn't come directly through my own observation, let's say direct observation of the scene, or direct observation of immortality, then it will have to be based on my belief, and where there is belief there's doubt, therefore fear. And we're back to fear, which is what I began to talk about, and which is what I am trying to have none of, or if not possible, less of.

So the difference between exposing oneself to the idea of immortality and exposing oneself to immortality, from what I can tell so far, and without having the answer to the question directly above, doesn't seem to be there at all, and it seems like what you call the truth about dying is based on an idea.

And you say this in your post:
Now, I'm not nearly so clear on the details as one who has actually had direct experience, but that doesn't mean I don't have a sense of it.
And I think “sense of it” here means either faith or idea, or feelings connected to both.

“Consider some other interesting evidence. If you decide doing your own exploration is worth your time, look at how those who have returned have returned change beings. Their new approach to life is evidence of something magnificent. The experiential effect of the overwhelming Love, and the grandeur of the environment, and the expansiveness of consciousness, the sense of being in their celestial home, and the life review where all is laid bare but without any judgment save our own, is more than a little bit convincing that what they experienced was real. The change that nearly all demonstrate in their lives is no small matter.”


I think that making the jump from the belief that what they experienced was real to naming that experience is jumping to conclusions, naming it “ongoing life”, or a “proof of immortality”, or the like. You say that they came back as changed beings. Some things may have changed, but I question that they came back as changed beings. Did they come back, change themselves, and affect positively the lives of what and who surrounded them through behaving in the changed way, without talking about themselves? Or was it that what they saw or felt was so great that they started to talk about it to other people in order to be less lonely? Which is what happens to all people who want to share a problem or something nice.

“No. Quite the opposite. People with unique knowledge and experience have every right to share what they will. For some it is too personal and they need time, sometimes years, to grok it. Others see the value of reporting the 'good news' that life is forever and there is no hell or judgment other than of their own creation. I for one am thankful that they had the courage and inspiration to share. It has made a very positive difference in my life. It has done so for many, many, others as well. Read the literature and see for yourself. Don't be frozen by fear. The truth will make you free.”


I don't even think they can help it. I think that all of them, whether they end up sharing, not sharing, or struggling with it, they would have done so depending on the force of impact with which what they saw or felt hit them. For those who share it it's practically a very hard thing not to. Some might even run straight to their friends to tell them about it, like an ecstatic child who will happily tell them what amazing thing he has done or seen, or somebody who is terrified and will tell what a terrifying thing has just happened.

It is very hard not to share something like that, just like it is very hard to share great wealth. The great wealth of material possessions will stay great if not scattered everywhere, and the near death experiences will only remain great if they are scattered all around.


A few ways it can pan out:

They come back from the experience. They either question the experience, or don't question it. If they accept the experience along with the name they have given it, they'll go down one of these routes.

“I believe that I'm immortal. What should I do? I know, I'll eat a bullet, and I'll go back to that lovely otherworldly realm. To hell with fear, pain, and dying. Pow! Gbye, suckers!”

But if he doesn't eat a bullet immediately, there's *confusion* *indecision*, he continues to struggle, and the same question comes up:

“I believe that I'm immortal. What should I do? I don't know. I'll see if I can find out without rushing or doing anything stupid.”

That seems reasonable, but if he doesn't say “I don't know” he will do the following:

“I believe that I'm immortal. What should I do? I am afraid to eat a bullet, I must still work, steal, or beg to make a living. Nobody knows that I'm special, that I'm immortal, so I'll at least tell everybody that I'm immortal and the story that goes with it, and get the rewards that I think I deserve, if not the sale of millions of books, I'll still get all the special attention in the world by just telling everybody anyway.”

So those who share their experience might want to be at the centre of attention. They might want to say that it is them to whom the experience happened to, they want credit. Though for some the "wanting" part may not even be conscious, they do end up getting it.
If anyone is divided about sharing and is struggling, that will split them up and this will cause conflict and battle, therefore pain, and they'll struggle that way for a while and at the boiling point might end up sharing as a way to get it off their chest, therefore to unload the burden of the "good news", in order to feel better.

Thanks for your concern, but there is no need to worry about my sensibilities. I'm more than fine and I enjoy this type of dialog. I only wish you the best in finding your way to clarity. But it is always your choice as to where and how to proceed. As to when I respond to your questions, I do so as best I can. Be patient, I have other issues to which I must also attend.


Yes. Thanks for this, and I'm sorry for the impatience. You're right.
ihavemorethanenough
 
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