Eckhart Contradicts Other Spiritual Teachings?

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Re: Eckhart Contradicts Other Spiritual Teachings?

Postby beginnersmind » Sun Jun 22, 2014 1:26 am

I think there is definitely evidence that the mind can certainly influence our reality. There is the phenomena in counselling and psychology known as the self fulfilling prophecy and then there is also the placebo effect. I'm typing from my phone, so I won't elaborate on it
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Re: Eckhart Contradicts Other Spiritual Teachings?

Postby EnterZenFromThere » Sun Jun 22, 2014 9:38 am

Thanks for sharing your experience KR. I'm feeling a similar way over here. There seem to be some rules to our creative powers. Belief and feeling as well as thought seem all important. Accepting I am a portal through which my Higher Being manifests here is helpful for me now. Seeing the love that I am as the love I feel for others also helps. That I am the Light by the Light I experience. I am That I am kinda deal.

Love,

Jack
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Re: Eckhart Contradicts Other Spiritual Teachings?

Postby EnterZenFromThere » Sun Jun 22, 2014 9:38 am

Thanks for sharing your experience KR. I'm feeling a similar way over here. There seem to be some rules to our creative powers. Belief and feeling as well as thought seem all important. Accepting I am a portal through which my Higher Being manifests here is helpful for me now. Seeing the love that I am as the love I feel for others also helps. That I am the Light by the Light I experience. I am That I am kinda deal.

Love,

Jack
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Re: Eckhart Contradicts Other Spiritual Teachings?

Postby Phil2 » Sun Jun 22, 2014 10:08 am

Webwanderer wrote:
Ego doesn't have to be so problematic. Once clear on its nature, it can be engineered and used as a tool for exploration of experience. It's getting lost in thought and deeply forgetting one's true nature that is most concerning.



Well, forgetting your true nature precisely IS what ego is about (ie. identities) ... this is why ego IS problematic, this is why ego IS insanity ...
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
(Carl Jung)
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Re: Eckhart Contradicts Other Spiritual Teachings?

Postby Phil2 » Sun Jun 22, 2014 10:15 am

karmarider wrote: When the mind is clearer, at least in my experience, there is a deeper satisfaction of life, and there isn't much interest in controlling outer reality.


Agreed.

Only ego looks for control and possession ... only ego finds itself incomplete and wants to endlessly grow and inflate itself ...

As Ramana Maharshi said (from memory) "there is no happiness in material objects, happiness generated by possession comes from the end of desire to possess, and it does not last long"
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
(Carl Jung)
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Re: Eckhart Contradicts Other Spiritual Teachings?

Postby Webwanderer » Sun Jun 22, 2014 1:54 pm

Only ego fights against ego.

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Re: Eckhart Contradicts Other Spiritual Teachings?

Postby Phil2 » Sun Jun 22, 2014 2:26 pm

Webwanderer wrote:Only ego fights against ego.

WW


Yes, and what you fight persists ...

:)
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
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Re: Eckhart Contradicts Other Spiritual Teachings?

Postby Webwanderer » Sun Jun 22, 2014 2:47 pm

Phil2 wrote:
Webwanderer wrote:Only ego fights against ego.

WW


Yes, and what you fight persists ...

:)

So all arguments against ego are an expression of ego and therefore futile in dissolving ego and only serve to strengthen it? :? Interesting...

In this world ego is likely to persist regardless of the fighting. The matter is how is it functioning within consciousness - master or servant?

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Re: Eckhart Contradicts Other Spiritual Teachings?

Postby Phil2 » Sun Jun 22, 2014 4:37 pm

Webwanderer wrote:
Phil2 wrote:
Webwanderer wrote:Only ego fights against ego.

WW


Yes, and what you fight persists ...

:)

So all arguments against ego are an expression of ego and therefore futile in dissolving ego and only serve to strengthen it? :? Interesting...

In this world ego is likely to persist regardless of the fighting. The matter is how is it functioning within consciousness - master or servant?

WW


What must be understood is that ego does not exist, it is an illusion created by thought, an idea, a concept ... with no substantial reality ... as Buddhists say "ego is unsubstantial"

However an illusion has some power, when we see the mirage of an oasis in the desert (ie. illusion) it makes us run for water, until we see the illusion, then the illusion loses its power ...

Thought however is real (as a manifested form of energy), so thought can only work correctly when it is no more corrupted by a false data (which is ego) ...

It is like a computer program, the best program in the world (ie. thought) cannot produce correct results if the underlying database is corrupted with wrong data (ego) ... database must be first cleaned from its erroneous content ...
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
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Re: Eckhart Contradicts Other Spiritual Teachings?

Postby Webwanderer » Sun Jun 22, 2014 6:15 pm

Phil2 wrote:What must be understood is that ego does not exist, it is an illusion created by thought, an idea, a concept ... with no substantial reality ... as Buddhists say "ego is unsubstantial"

Ego may be an illusion, but so too is every 'thing' else. What is real about ego is the experience of it, just as with every 'thing' else, and that is what matters in terms of value towards the evolution of consciousness. All experience is real experience, even if the underlying 'substance' is only imaginary. So life is mostly about experience. The rest is just the stage and its trappings.

as Buddhists say "ego is unsubstantial"

Buddhists certainly have a right to their perspectives as we all do. They are an authority to the extent that an individual believes them so. It's the same with all religions, teachers and gurus. Curiously, do Buddhists say what is substantial?

Thought however is real (as a manifested form of energy),

Agreed. Thought is as real as any other experience. That does not mean the substance of thought is real other than as an experience. Thought is first a process of consideration and expression born of underlying consciousness. And to be clear, energy is a component of all manifestation.

so thought can only work correctly when it is no more corrupted by a false data (which is ego) ...

I guess that would depend on one's definition of 'correctly'. I find it a bit too limiting when words such as 'only' are used in this context. It may indeed be the only correct working of thought, or it may be the only way one can perceive it working correctly. There may be a larger context in which 'correct' is more inclusive.

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Re: Eckhart Contradicts Other Spiritual Teachings?

Postby slow ride » Mon Jun 23, 2014 1:46 am

I agree with WW's continued re-emphasis that experience is all and beyond doubt.

That whole ego thing...
Is it? Isn't it? Is it good? Is it bad?

I liken ego to a parasite.
Whether seemingly supportive or seemingly a cause of weakness, there is one consistency...
It is always reinforcing the notion of individual and, therefore, separation/duality+
Therein lies the parasitic behavior, always diverting your source-energy into propping up the separation dream.
Ego is just an energy-stealing parasite.
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Re: Eckhart Contradicts Other Spiritual Teachings?

Postby Webwanderer » Mon Jun 23, 2014 7:00 am

A lot of these perceptions of ego assumes that ego has only one context, or one type of context, and that being something negative that needs to be eliminated.

Ego is just an energy-stealing parasite.

forgetting your true nature precisely IS what ego is about (ie. identities) ... this is why ego IS problematic, this is why ego IS insanity ...


These are just two examples, but these forum pages are replete with such one sided perceptions. And I'm not even suggesting that there is no truth in their characterization. What I am suggesting is that it is not the whole truth, that there is more to ego than just 'parasitic insanity'.

Ego is an identity thought construct. But the quality and nature of that thought construct can vary greatly. My sense is that the thought 'I am...' is the birth of ego, because what comes next is a definition of self that generally leads to an identification that is unique from all others. 'I am' followed by multiple thought definitions builds our concept of human self over our sense of conscious self. Generally the stronger ones concept of self the stronger one's perception of separation.

Because however, ego identity is built upon beliefs about self, one's experience of being through that ego identity is determined by the unique nature and construction of the beliefs held. As beliefs vary, so too does the nature of consciousness's experience. As this seems obviously true then it follows that thought constructs - ego identifications - are creative when it comes to the type of experience one has. Believe this and perceive thusly. Believe something else and experience accordingly. No need to make anything ugly out of it - except of course for the experience of seeing ugliness.

When one considers then, the possibility that human life is an exploratory adventure from the perspective of our non physical beingness, it is through the creation of ego - adding definitions and beliefs to the fundamental essence of 'I am... whatever' - that forms the template and uniqueness of our soul's, our non-physical essence, exploration of this human experience.

Ego then is not so much a parasite and/or insane, as it is an adventure in a unique perspective of human perception. In the long run upon the death of the body, the whole adventure is recognized for what it is and the experience gained, regardless of whether the ego saw itself as this or that, is incorporated into the greater understanding and beingness of ever expanding consciousness. (apologies for the wordiness)

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Re: Eckhart Contradicts Other Spiritual Teachings?

Postby Phil2 » Mon Jun 23, 2014 10:06 am

Webwanderer wrote:
Phil2 wrote:What must be understood is that ego does not exist, it is an illusion created by thought, an idea, a concept ... with no substantial reality ... as Buddhists say "ego is unsubstantial"

Ego may be an illusion, but so too is every 'thing' else. What is real about ego is the experience of it, just as with every 'thing' else, and that is what matters in terms of value towards the evolution of consciousness.


No, we cannot 'experience' ego, simply because ego does not exist ... what we experience is thoughts and emotions and suffering, which are real ...

Now saying that ego is an illusion like all 'things' is not quite correct, there is a difference ... material objects have a physical existence, they exist as matter, they have the same reality as matter ... but there is no such 'thing' or 'object' as ego, ego is just an 'idea' ... it is like the unicorn or the pink elephant, a myth ...
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
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Re: Eckhart Contradicts Other Spiritual Teachings?

Postby Onceler » Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:47 am

I like what you said about the ego, WW, and agree that it is not the root of all our problems, as is commonly thought (believed) in many circles. Sherman calls the ego the 'personal psychology', taking some of the bias out of the construct, and believes that our fear of living, a contextual fear originating around birth, sets the tone for the construction of our personal psychology making it irrational and defensive against life. Once the fear is eliminated by seeing/feeling who we are, our personal psychology can recover healthy functioning and be used in the service of living life, as you suggest.
My own experience follows this quite closely and I find the word 'ego' to be too loaded with other meanings to be positive and useful.....just my experience.

In my own understanding, I see the progression of humans through life in a slightly different way. We work everything out laboriously as children.....trying to understand life and how we think by working everything out cognitively and emotionally in a progression of sorts, all the while being conditioned by culture in how to think, feel and behave. After a while we learn to take cognitive shortcuts and bundle beliefs and thought structure into memes, almost like compressing data to make it more workable. These bundles of beliefs become assumptions and conditioning which trigger emotional responses and are not a subtle response to real life situations that don't fit into, or weren't accounted for by our shortcut algorithms, creating blunted psychological/cognitive responses that don't fit with life. It's like we turn on an automated answering machine to life's problems......but the options given, 1-4, don't address the real nature of life.

To me, the word 'ego' has become one of these memes and doesn't address the subtly of our personality as a human, as you eloquently suggest, WW. Defanging ego allows us to see the real problem, fear, and live a fully psychologically integrated human life without fear that our egos are malfunctioning......without shame or the worry that something is wrong. To me, the worry about the ego being 'wrong' has a de-energizing feel to it and is another form of the fear of life that can be deadening and distancing.
Be present, be pleasant.
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Re: Eckhart Contradicts Other Spiritual Teachings?

Postby slow ride » Mon Jun 23, 2014 3:09 pm

WW,

We identify ego’s role identically to be that of individual and then multiplicity.

slow ride wrote:Whether seemingly supportive or seemingly a cause of weakness, there is one consistency... It is always reinforcing the notion of individual and, therefore, separation/duality+

Webwanderer wrote:My sense is that the thought 'I am...' is the birth of ego, because what comes next is a definition of self that generally leads to an identification that is unique from all others. 'I am' followed by multiple thought definitions builds our concept of human self over our sense of conscious self.


We deviate at this separation world.

You see this separation world more as something to be experienced.
Webwanderer wrote:Generally the stronger ones concept of self the stronger one's perception of separation.


I lean more to the perspective that this separation world is something worthy of being escaped.

I suppose most great teachers have had both messages:
1. A better experience here via disentangled experience/acceptance, and
2. Ending the reincarnation cycle.

You seem to lean heavily toward the “experience it” goal to the dimunition of the other in this lifetime.

Still, even from your chosen focus on goal 1, you must acknowledge the other goal has had its devotees. No small fraction of the billions who have passed through this adventure will have spent a great deal of their time thinking: There must be a better place and I want to go there.

To the degree I am demonizing, I am demonizing the duality/separation dream more than the ego. And, yes, I must admit, I do indeed sense: There must be a better place and I want to go there.

Maybe I am still very immature on all this. I love the idea of so thoroughly disengaging that I am an experiencer without goals. I think I love that. And I think I largely live goal 1. But goal 2 still reigns. Am I wrong to allow goal 2 to persist? Am I immature? I don't know. I'm seriously inquiring.

Several teachers have uttered "This is it, this is my last go 'round, c'est fini, I'm out, I'm not coming back again, and I'm pretty darn happy about that, see ya on the other side." Buddha and Jesus being two examples.

-Dave
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