Souls Versus Non-Souls

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Souls Versus Non-Souls

Postby ashley72 » Thu Feb 27, 2014 6:47 am

The entropy of the Universe is always increasing (order => disorder). On the other hand, living systems are always "trying" to achieve lower entropy (disorder => order) of their isolated system. DNA code, is the "ordered code" that gets passed on to off-spring of living systems.

Its like a battle is constantly going on between living systems (souls) & non-living systems (non-souls). :lol:

It makes you wonder, does this strange dichotomy between living systems (ordered) & non-living systems (disorder) have something to do with life-force or soul that arises in living systems?

In order to understand an organism, it must be thought of as a pattern which maintains itself through homeostasis. Life continues by maintaining an internal balance of various factors such as temperature and molecular structure


The 'negentropy', or 'negative entropy', that I am thinking of, comes from Schrödinger's book, What is Life?1, in which he writes,

"It is by avoiding the rapid decay into the inert state of 'equilibrium' that an organism appears so enigmatic....What an organism feeds upon is negative entropy."
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Re: Souls Versus Non-Souls

Postby ashley72 » Thu Feb 27, 2014 9:23 pm

"Minds" are unique, in that they are compelled to maintain "order" through organisation of information. This is why the dualistic perceiver/thinker categorises, pigeonholes it's environment in a deterministic way... to maintain organisation and order in the living system.... to keep its entropy low. When a person dies and decays... organisation of this living system moves rapidly to disorganisation & disorder.

A person eats, shelters, clothes, and orders it's conceptual life in order to maintain low entropy. If a person is injured, the system can lose organisation and entropy can suddenly increase... which is life threatening. Even panic attacks, cause an increase in entropy, because the system becomes unstable and disorganised.

So the Mind has a purpose & role to the system, by maintaining organisation and order of the system thru a dualistic perception and conceptual framework or mapping. Categorising things as either good or bad is how to try and sort/maintain organisation. If your children mess up the house, they are labelled "bad" and trained to clean up their own mess/disorganisation. Maintaining a low entropy state is programmed into a child at a young age.

But the Mind can suffer from disorders & diseases, which leads to disorganisation of information, like panic attacks, OCD, agoraphobia, schizophrenia, alzheimer's, phobias etc. Some of these issues can be addressed with medication or cognitive or exposure therapy.... some cannot.

Disease happens when things get out of balance. For example, there is nothing wrong with cells dividing and multiplying in the body, but when this process continues in disregard of the total organism, cells proliferate and we have disease. ~ Eckhart Tolle


The Mind can also empathise with other living systems thru organisation of information and communication of that information to others.

There is a common understanding between living systems, of our fragile state, the universe's always tending towards disorganisation and disorder.

Everyday we do rituals to maintain order, we wash ourselves, we brush our teeth, we cut our facial hair, we clean our houses, we wash dishes, we clean our gardens, we throw out rubbish. Things always seem to be moving away from organisation to disorganisation and it's our constant battle.

There are natural disasters like hurricanes, cyclones, fires, earthquakes, floods which all create disorder and disorganisation, by destroying roads, houses, factories, bridges, buildings, and lives. This increase entropy.

There are man made disasters, like financial crashes, wars, terrorism, massacres, murders, robberies, which all increase entropy or disorganisation & disorder.

Our societies are continually adding regulation and law & order to our economic systems, health systems, social systems etc. We have law and order officers who maintain that low entropy state, which helps maintain living systems at a optimal level.

Can you see the cycle?

The Mind may also use past information (memory) to do things in the moment which may help maintain its organisation and order.

For example a person who suffers from panic disorder (sudden increase in entropy), may resort to using avoidance strategies as a way of maintaining a low entropy state.

Even practices like meditation, are attempts by the thinker to lower entropy (noise in the mind).

I found this interesting essay called the "The Entropy Theory of Human Mind"

People generally think that physical laws only have limited utility in understanding human behavior because our mind is free. However, human mind is shaped by natural selection and sexual selection (Pinker, 1997). Living organisms need to extract low entropy from the environment, to defend their low entropy sources and to reduce the diffusion of the low entropy. The struggle to stay in low entropy states is called natural selection. In human societies, agriculture is the main low entropy source. Part of health care systems aim at defending our own low entropy sources to be accessed by viruses and bacteria. The military forces are established to extract low entropy from others and to defend own low entropy sources. Clothing and housing reduces the diffusion of low entropy.


http://web.unbc.ca/~chenj/1.pdf
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Re: Souls Versus Non-Souls

Postby coriolis » Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:13 pm

So we struggle to maintain this order for several decades at best only to finally be swallowed up in the inescapable ocean of entropy we struggled against.

You are describing how the human mind sometimes likes to categorize phenomena more than anything that is inherently real outside of human thought in my opinion.
Look deeply inside yourself and try to find yourself.
The ensuing failure is the true finding
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Re: Souls Versus Non-Souls

Postby ashley72 » Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:24 pm

coriolis wrote:So we struggle to maintain this order for several decades at best only to finally be swallowed up in the inescapable ocean of entropy we struggled against.


Yep! :lol:

Image


coriolis wrote:You are describing how the human mind sometimes likes to categorize phenomena more than anything that is inherently real outside of human thought in my opinion.


I'm basically trying to discover what might be the primordial life force or "soul" driving the inherent survival instincts of living systems. In other words, why do we battle?

Eckhart Tolle talks about it...

The psychological condition of fear is divorced from any concrete and true immediate danger. It comes in many forms: unease, worry, anxiety, nervousness, tension, dread, phobia, and so on. This kind of psychological fear is always of something that might happen, not of something that is happening now. ~ Eckhart Tolle


Eckhart Tolle blames it on not being in the present moment...

But if a Tsunami like the one above comes over the horizon, do I feel dread, tension, nervousness, unease, worry? Of course I do! Because my living system is about to be swallowed up by an Entropy wave. :lol:

What I will need to do is scramble for safety if I want to maintain a low entropy state... That is clear.

I do have a choice however, do I fight or flight a tsunami?

It's certainly a bigger and stronger... So even a guy, as big and as strong, as Arnold Schwarzenegger will head for the hills.
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Re: Souls Versus Non-Souls

Postby smiileyjen101 » Fri Feb 28, 2014 3:49 am

I'm basically trying to discover what might be the primordial life force or "soul" driving the inherent survival instincts of living systems.

In other words, why do we battle?


I think there is a difference in that which is naturally occurring eg the proliferation of cells, urges of satisfying hunger and thirst, natural waxing and waning, flowing and ebbing, creation and destruction cycles and the 'imposed' elements of social systems that can never, have never, and will never 'defeat' what is eternal and ever changing in structure and expression.

The humanly imposed and yes evident in some other 'high order' species as well, societal elements go against the nature of what is. There is grace - smoothness and elegance of movement in the natural - and there is resistance to it that creates suffering through a sense of separation from it.

Fear (and this sense of right/wrong which is a lack of grace with what is) creates the notion of 'versus' - held in the title - in the first place. Being aware of what is creating that fear allows one to face it in each moment.
(eg: souls vs non souls, living vs non-living, order vs disorder, shaved vs unshaved, tidy home vs toys on the floor, acts of nature and acts of mankind)

In awareness and presence, instead of creating the resistance (versus), one embraces the realities of 'and' / 'both' interacting together naturally as you've already noticed. (face the fear and realise it's not that bad after all - and that one feels far better and can only respond in the 'flow' of it than experience the imbalance that one did trying to resist it or imagine it outside of the reality of it.)

ET is right, when we are not present we fall to unnecessary (psychological) fear and we miss what is real right now, and available to our more rational and reasonable mind that works with, rather than against the elements of what is.
Ash said: Eckhart Tolle talks about it...

The psychological condition of fear is divorced from any concrete and true immediate danger. It comes in many forms: unease, worry, anxiety, nervousness, tension, dread, phobia, and so on. This kind of psychological fear is always of something that might happen, not of something that is happening now. ~ Eckhart Tolle



Eckhart Tolle blames it on not being in the present moment...


Preparedness and applying knowledge wisely in presence is different to worrying & senseless psychological fearing - eg in a disaster - tsunami
Initial fright can be lessened if one is adept in interpreting and recognising stimuli in aware knowledge (based on evidence of any of the sensory perceptions that have proved an accurate indicator).

Eg feeling the low frequency range of an earthquake or incoming tsunami is 'in the now/present' and therefore at that point one can actively respond because it is interpreted just like any other information is - 2 + 2 = 4 therefore xyz.
It's why some animals do get themselves out of the way, and they don't panic unless they are trapped and unable to dictate their own responses, they still have, recognise and follow a broad range perspective of interpreting energy frequency in motion where for instance low frequency waves = tsunami or earthquake - and I'd be with them rather than waiting for some other alarm that may pick up and signal too late to respond
http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... eartquake/

In presence and with understanding and acceptance of the reality one will have far more clarity as to possible options than one would in panic or resistance which sets up the emotions and responses of negative responding - denial, avoidance, conflict etc One need not panic and fall to negative emotion states, one can say 2 + 2 = 4 and 4 means >>> immediate action and results.

One can respond to what is and do what one can do - in acceptance and understanding of the reality - not in resistance or denial or (as ET highlights of ego) making enemy, obstacle or means to an end of the 'thing'. One can re-cog-nise and respond in grace - smoothness and elegance of movement.

Even in facing illness, death etc if that is the logical result beyond possible responding.

Which is why ET also says sudden disaster does bring you right into the moment. All thoughts of past / future disappear in the immediacy of action response becoming uppermost if one is in grace with what is.

The notion of 'battle' is one that you might like to explore Ash. It's separating and creating enemy etc

Your recent posts juxtaposing things with other things is far more embracing and moving towards understanding the equilibrium - the condition of a system in which all competing influences are balanced, in a wide variety of contexts.
There is no souls versus non-souls, there is only souls + non-souls in equilibrium.
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Re: Souls Versus Non-Souls

Postby ashley72 » Fri Feb 28, 2014 4:48 am

smiileyjen101 wrote:There is no souls versus non-souls, there is only souls + non-souls in equilibrium.


Unfortunately, the non-souls in equilibrium, have lost their "ordered" code forever.. so they can no longer pro-create. So they're out of the game! :mrgreen:

BTW, a non-soul who was once a soul, can live on in other souls, as a "Memes", a unit for carrying cultural ideas, symbols, or practices that can be transmitted from one mind to another through writing, speech, gestures, rituals, or other imitable phenomena.

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Re: Souls Versus Non-Souls

Postby coriolis » Fri Feb 28, 2014 5:03 am

ashley72 wrote:But if a Tsunami like the one above comes over the horizon, do I feel dread, tension, nervousness, unease, worry? Of course I do! Because my living system is about to be swallowed up by an Entropy wave. :lol:


If the recollections of drowning victims and others are to be believed the struggle only lasts to a certain point and then the apparent separate self ceases to struggle and acquiesces to whatever presents.

I've found it is very difficult for me to know how I will react to situations as what "I think" is seldom how it actually turns out in experience.

That may just be me though.
Look deeply inside yourself and try to find yourself.
The ensuing failure is the true finding
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Re: Souls Versus Non-Souls

Postby ashley72 » Fri Feb 28, 2014 5:16 am

coriolis wrote:
ashley72 wrote:But if a Tsunami like the one above comes over the horizon, do I feel dread, tension, nervousness, unease, worry? Of course I do! Because my living system is about to be swallowed up by an Entropy wave. :lol:


If the recollections of drowning victims and others are to be believed the struggle only lasts to a certain point and then the apparent separate self ceases to struggle and acquiesces to whatever presents.

I've found it is very difficult for me to know how I will react to situations as what "I think" is seldom how it actually turns out in experience.

That may just be me though.


I've been knocked out before, so I know what happens when I'm unconscious (the lights go out)... and that is what happens when you drown, you asphyxia due to aspiration of fluid into air-passages.... & you lose consciousness in about 3 minutes (the lights go out). I don't feel these things are so mysterious really, once we've died, our body decays rapidly into equilibrium (high entropy state) disorder. Obviously the flesh will breakdown in days/weeks and the bones may take many years (bones may fossilise over thousands of years). Our code/pattern lives on in our off-spring and our Memes.

But I don't believe in re-carnation, after-life etc. But If people feel like or need to believe in that stuff... no problem. That is their prerogative.
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Re: Souls Versus Non-Souls

Postby smiileyjen101 » Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:10 am

ashley said:
Unfortunately, the non-souls in equilibrium, have lost their "ordered" code forever.. so they can no longer pro-create. So they're out of the game! :mrgreen:


Maybe we are at cross purposes as to what is included in equilibrium. My take is everything that ever was / is / will be - the condition of a system in which all competing influences are balanced, in a wide variety of contexts.

Otherwise wouldn't you be arguing a lop-sided argument?
There is no (awareness of or discriminating of) order without (awareness of or discriminating of) disorder.

There is no (awareness of or discriminating of) non-soul without (awareness of or discriminating of) soul.

There is no (awareness of or discriminating of) life without (awareness of or discriminating of) death.

If your children mess up the house, they are labelled "bad" and trained to clean up their own mess/disorganisation. Maintaining a low entropy state is programmed into a child at a young age.

^^ Is subjective. If it is over-emphasised absolutely a child may interpret not only that a 'situation' is 'bad', but that they also are 'bad'. This is all illusionary, societally created BS, believed as if real.

So again, there are differences in naturally occurring and mind created experiencing.

We do not need to 'battle' we only need to know what is real and respond.
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Re: Souls Versus Non-Souls

Postby ashley72 » Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:34 am

smiileyjen101 wrote:Otherwise wouldn't you be arguing a lop-sided argument?
There is no (awareness of or discriminating of) order without (awareness of or discriminating of) disorder.

There is no (awareness of or discriminating of) non-soul without (awareness of or discriminating of) soul.

There is no (awareness of or discriminating of) life without (awareness of or discriminating of) death.


The origin of life (Order from Disorder) is a far more complicated issue than the further development of life, since there is no "standard model" of how the first biological life-forms emerged; only a number of competing hypotheses.

However, whilst we still don't know conclusively how "life" was created from non-living systems...Dr Craig Venter grabbed the attention of headline writers and scientists around the world by announcing what he calls the "world's first synthetic life". He took a synthetic bacterial genome constructed from chemicals in the laboratory and, as Venter puts it, "booted it up" by inserting it into a living single-celled bacterium. The cell replicated itself into a colony of organisms containing only the synthetic DNA.

In doing this feat, Dr Craig Venter thinks he finally answered the question posed by physicist Erwin Schrödinger in his 1944 book "What is Life? "

Life is a DNA software system," says Dr Venter. All living things are solely reducible to DNA and the cellular apparatus it uses to run on. The DNA software both creates and directs the more visible "hardware" of life such as proteins and cells.

With that question settled, says Venter, it's clear that if you give an organism new software by rewriting its genome, you have rewritten the software and life itself. He dismisses his scientific critics who say there is more to remaking life than creating DNA molecules as guilty of a kind of modern day vitalism, the pre-scientific notion that an intangible something sets life apart from other things made from atoms and molecules.

Although Venter works on single cells, he says he believes it holds true for even the most complex organisms. "I can't explain consciousness yet, but like anything else it will be explainable at the molecular level, the cellular level and therefore the DNA coding level.
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Re: Souls Versus Non-Souls

Postby smiileyjen101 » Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:05 am

Dr Venter created the lifeform by synthesising a DNA code and injecting it into a single bacteria cell. The cell containing the man-made DNA then grew and divided, creating a hitherto unseen lifeform.


The single bacterial cell would have already contained the 'life' component (?)
The first person who injected jam into a donut thought they'd 'invented' something new too :wink: All they (both) did was reconfigure what was already available by various combinations of known matter. The universe has been doing that (and much much more) without human help for eternity :wink:

Life is a DNA software system," says Dr Venter. All living things are solely reducible to DNA and the cellular apparatus it uses to run on. The DNA software both creates and directs the more visible "hardware" of life such as proteins and cells.

That's a pretty narrow definition of life. And no consideration of the wider 'hardware' bit that gets tricky, the bit that the software works within in combination with that tricky 95% of unknown stuff surrounding the 5% that is known.

"I can't explain consciousness yet, but like anything else it will be explainable at the molecular level, the cellular level and therefore the DNA coding level.


Maybe it's not like 'anything else'. 'Anything else' known is only five percent of what is known to be knowable but as yet 95% is unknown. If consciousness is part of the 95% of energy and matter that is not explainable at the molecular, cellular and therefore DNA coding level that might explain why they haven't been able to explain it in those terms.

More is unknown than is known. We know how much dark energy there is because we know how it affects the Universe's expansion. Other than that, it is a complete mystery. But it is an important mystery. It turns out that roughly 68% of the Universe is dark energy. Dark matter makes up about 27%. The rest - everything on Earth, everything ever observed with all of our instruments, all normal matter - adds up to less than 5% of the Universe.

Come to think of it, maybe it shouldn't be called "normal" matter at all, since it is such a small fraction of the Universe. http://science.nasa.gov/astrophysics/focus-areas/what-is-dark-energy/



According to Chalmers, (Director of the Center for Consciousness at the Australian National University) the subjective nature of consciousness prevents it from being explained in terms of simpler components, a method used to great success in other areas of science. He believes that unlike most of the physical world, which can be broken down into individual atoms, or organisms, which can be understood in terms of cells, consciousness is an irreducible aspect of the universe, like space and time and mass.

"Those things in a way didn't need to evolve," said Chalmers. "They were part of the fundamental furniture of the world all along."

http://www.livescience.com/366-great-mi ... sness.html
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Re: Souls Versus Non-Souls

Postby ashley72 » Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:09 am

Firstly, I'm not implying that all the answers on "the origins of life" have been settled just yet. But the answers are not too far off. One of the problems is trying to reproduce the "primordial soup" that occurred in a laboratory... Obviously no easy feat.

In respect to David Chalmers assertions, who BTW was a doctoral student under Douglas Hofstadter... It may be worth noting that Hofstadter has been critical of him in respect to his views about theories like "what it feels like to be an electron ".

Or David Chalmers, a former student of Hofstadter’s, who is gently skewered in this book for positing some non-physical essence that separates a conscious being from an unconscious unaware robot. These folks are a bit more romantic, folks who refuse to believe that the majesty of the human mind is already mostly understood, and that we just have to sort out the wiring diagram of the brain’s neurons. They often appeal to some disparate branch of science or math, if not place human consciousness beyond the realm of science completely.


Anyway, from what I've read to date, I favour emergent materialism as the most likely solution to the mind-body problem.

The Schrödinger equation is the master equation of quantum chemistry. The founders of quantum mechanics realised how this equation underpins essentially the whole of chemistry.

Have you heard of chemical waves?

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Re: Souls Versus Non-Souls

Postby smiileyjen101 » Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:20 am

That's the funny thing Ash - materialism sees it as a mind-body problem, and in doing so cannot get out of its own shadow, nor break through the self imposed boundaries of physicality & materialism. :wink:


It just stands to reason that if one is going to explore 'life' and the universe and all within it, that one would firstly acknowledge that emergent materialism is only speaking about less than 5% of known energy and matter, therefore to postulate about 'all living things' is incredibly subjective and with immense bias towards the less than 5% . To further restrict that by the notion that we (human beings) can - from our skewed perspective - speak to consciousness in other 'forms' and 'energies' at the same time that we cannot even unpack it in ourselves, only adds to the interplay of ignorance-arrogance dance.

Materialism can not stand apart from the bias of its own subjectiveness.

Human intellect cannot stand apart from the bias of its own subjectiveness.


As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter.

— Max Planck, Das Wesen der Materie, 1944

This 'matrix of all matter' does not stop at the 5% and nor does it have any bias (and while some have interpreted this to mean there must be a 'god' I don't see it that way) - all of creation in equilibrium IS the matrix within which intelligence IS eternally (by perspective in or out of 'form').
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Re: Souls Versus Non-Souls

Postby Rob X » Fri Feb 28, 2014 2:25 pm

smiileyjen101 wrote:It just stands to reason that if one is going to explore 'life' and the universe and all within it, that one would firstly acknowledge that emergent materialism is only speaking about less than 5% of known energy and matter, therefore to postulate about 'all living things' is incredibly subjective and with immense bias towards the less than 5% . To further restrict that by the notion that we (human beings) can - from our skewed perspective - speak to consciousness in other 'forms' and 'energies' at the same time that we cannot even unpack it in ourselves, only adds to the interplay of ignorance-arrogance dance.

Materialism can not stand apart from the bias of its own subjectiveness.

Human intellect cannot stand apart from the bias of its own subjectiveness.


I'm in complete agreement with this, Jen.

This brings to mind an article by the philosopher Colin McGinn in which he states:

"What chance is there that an intelligence geared to making stone tools and grounded in the contingent peculiarities of the human hand can aspire to uncover all the mysteries of the universe? Can omniscience spring from an opposable thumb? It seems unlikely, so why presume that the mysteries of consciousness will be revealed to a thumb-shaped brain like ours?

Human intelligence is a local, contingent, temporal, practical and expendable feature of life on earth - an incremental adaptation based on earlier forms of intelligence that no one would regard as faintly omniscient. The current state of the philosophy of mind, from my point of view, is just a reflection of one evolutionary time-slice of a particular bipedal species on a particular humid planet at this fleeting moment in cosmic history - as is everything else about the human animal. There is more ignorance in it than knowledge."
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Re: Souls Versus Non-Souls

Postby ashley72 » Fri Feb 28, 2014 11:40 pm

The issue with "qualia" or feelium as being the hard-problem of consciousness, comes down to trying to equate "feeling" with some simplified "essence". David Chalmers is showing his bias by believing consciousness is some kind of "essence" which is irreducible . In fact it is the complete opposite, complex systems like "living systems" actually increase in complexity as they evolve. The human brain has 85 billion neurons, with roughly 100 trillion connections... That is complex! To put "feelium" down to some simplified essence is ridiculous.

Is the human race not becoming more and more complex? Yes.

Why? Because living system survive by maintaining lower and lower entropy. :lol: The more & more organised and ordered we become the less chance that a high entropy wave can kill us off. Global warming is a potential high entropy wave that could destroy the order & organisation of living systems on the planet. What is the human race doing at the moment, trying to come up with new ways of tackling this problem by maintaining the order and organisation of living systems. Reducing carbon emitters etc.

With respect, a strong "physics" background is prerequisite for understanding these complex systems/problems which get their basis from fundamental physics, that's why a guy like Douglas Hofstadter's intellect is more reliable than some philosopher.

"What chance is there that an intelligence geared to making stone tools and grounded in the contingent peculiarities of the human hand can aspire to uncover all the mysteries of the universe?


As long as "mystery" remains there will always be people hanging onto God, Divine, Essence... God will always live in the gaps of understanding!!!

That's why he's called God of the gaps :mrgreen: !!!!

Rob, stop appealing to people's ignorance!

You need to at least suspend your judgment, until they complete the wire-diagram for the human brain.

http://live.wsj.com/video/how-the-brain-wiring-forms-thoughts-and-emotions/EA1F50CA-62D0-46EA-85F3-1AA82B8572A8.html#!741875F2-7746-483A-8931-7FCBDFD34331
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