Having it both ways

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Having it both ways

Postby rachMiel » Sun Mar 30, 2014 4:22 pm

You go about your life, convinced it's all real.

Then something stirs, and you realize you're in a play ... the cast your self, family, friends, everyone ... the set your house, office, town, universe.

Keen on truth, you step offstage and leave the play behind. Now it's just you and eternity.

Then you soften and realize the play is quite beautiful. Very beautiful in fact. And that in some mysterious way it is at the same time fictional and real.

So you step back into the flow of the play. Only this time with a difference. You no longer believe in what happens onstage, you make-believe in it. You know you are acting a role in a play, but you are no longer trapped by this role, rather expanded by it. Able to play with it, enjoy it. And let it go, when the time comes to do that.
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Re: Having it both ways

Postby Fore » Sun Mar 30, 2014 6:01 pm

rachMiel wrote:Able to play with it, enjoy it. And let it go, when the time comes to do that.


From moment to moment life presents us with our attachments. Can you let it go now, if not now, then when?
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Re: Having it both ways

Postby rachMiel » Sun Mar 30, 2014 7:16 pm

Fore wrote:
rachMiel wrote:Able to play with it, enjoy it. And let it go, when the time comes to do that.

From moment to moment life presents us with our attachments. Can you let it go now, if not now, then when?

You can hold onto things, gently, for an extended moment. And then let them go when that moment has passed.

For example, sitting with someone quietly in a room and watching twilight give way to night. You can hold onto that sense of hushed communion, gently, like you might hold a bird in your hand, and then let it go when the moment has passed.
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Re: Having it both ways

Postby Fore » Sun Mar 30, 2014 11:13 pm

rachMiel wrote: You can hold onto things, gently, for an extended moment. And then let them go when that moment has passed.


Is this not being present, absolute freedom from clinging, just fully accepting this moment as it is? I just don't see the holding on to portion of your statement.

This would also be a very mature practice, to gently react to experience as not to even make a lasting ripple. Can you do this?
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Re: Having it both ways

Postby runstrails » Sun Mar 30, 2014 11:22 pm

Lovely post, rM.
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Re: Having it both ways

Postby rachMiel » Sun Mar 30, 2014 11:35 pm

Fore wrote:
rachMiel wrote: You can hold onto things, gently, for an extended moment. And then let them go when that moment has passed.

Is this not being present, absolute freedom from clinging, just fully accepting this moment as it is? I just don't see the holding on to portion of your statement.

It's the feeling of an extended continuous moment, rather than a sequence of arbitrarily short discontinuous moments. A mood rather than a single arising/fading of this or that emotion. Not sure that's any clearer!

This would also be a very mature practice, to gently react to experience as not to even make a lasting ripple. Can you do this?

Sometimes it just happens. Usually not when I consciously try to make it happen.

How does it work for you, Fore?
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Re: Having it both ways

Postby rachMiel » Sun Mar 30, 2014 11:41 pm

runstrails wrote:Lovely post, rM.

Glad it resonated, runstrails. :-)

We all go in and out of (consciousness of) our story, right? Sometimes you see it, observe it with an almost clinical distance, other times you get taken by it like an intense scene from a movie, other times you forget it's a story, believe it, think/feel you are it.
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Re: Having it both ways

Postby runstrails » Sun Mar 30, 2014 11:48 pm

Again, nicely said, rM. I totally resonate. In fact, I love watching movies just for this reason now. I get caught up, I get drawn in, then I take a deep breath and realize it's just a movie and then I get involved again but in a more relaxed manner. Sort of a mirror of what happens in everyday life.
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Re: Having it both ways

Postby Fore » Mon Mar 31, 2014 12:01 am

rachMiel wrote: It's the feeling of an extended continuous moment, rather than a sequence of arbitrarily short discontinuous moments. A mood rather than a single arising/fading of this or that emotion. Not sure that's any clearer!


It's clear rM, this is experience from a gross point of reference. At this apparent level of experience there is much mind identification occurring. My question was can you truly let go of this, are you truly free from clinging to this gross apparent reality at any moment? I would answer no to this question as there is much attachment to form to let go of.

rachMiel wrote: Sometimes it just happens. Usually not when I consciously try to make it happen.


I would answer in a similar fashion, I do not have full access to the subtler realms, but on occasion they arise, this is occurring more frequently but I agree not with any forced effort.

Having it both ways seems a very mature practice, in Theravaden terms perhaps the level of mind purity of non-returner(anagami). This mind would seem to have it both ways.
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Re: Having it both ways

Postby rachMiel » Mon Mar 31, 2014 2:00 am

Fore wrote:
rachMiel wrote: It's the feeling of an extended continuous moment, rather than a sequence of arbitrarily short discontinuous moments. A mood rather than a single arising/fading of this or that emotion. Not sure that's any clearer!

It's clear rM, this is experience from a gross point of reference. At this apparent level of experience there is much mind identification occurring. My question was can you truly let go of this, are you truly free from clinging to this gross apparent reality at any moment?

I am most definitely not free of gross apparent reality. I spend lots of (clock) time in it, less in more subtle apparent reality, and just a dash in vivid "pure" awareness. How about you, Fore?
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Re: Having it both ways

Postby Psychoslice » Mon Mar 31, 2014 2:21 am

Beautifully said rachMiel, this is how I try to live my life also.
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Re: Having it both ways

Postby rachMiel » Mon Mar 31, 2014 2:26 am

Thanks, Psychoslice. And a belated welcome to the forum! :-)
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Re: Having it both ways

Postby Fore » Mon Mar 31, 2014 2:52 am

rachMiel wrote: I am most definitely not free of gross apparent reality. I spend lots of (clock) time in it, less in more subtle apparent reality, and just a dash in vivid "pure" awareness.


So do you experience(create) all the planes of existence?

I'm trying to understand what you meant by your original OP. "then something stirs" and "now its just you and eternity" this seems dualistic(subject and object)?

You seem to be talking about a faith based practice? Perhaps I'm just misunderstanding, or reading into this to deeply. :)
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Re: Having it both ways

Postby Psychoslice » Mon Mar 31, 2014 3:33 am

"then something stirs" and "now its just you and eternity"

I feel what rachMiel wrote is describing non duality, but words get in the way, using words is duality, but what is pointed to by the words that rachMiel used, is beyond duality, this is how I personally read it
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