vegetarian/vegan

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vegetarian/vegan

Postby Trev » Sun Jun 22, 2014 10:13 pm

Hi

I just saw a short video on the free content section of Eckharts website where someone asked him if he was vegetarian/vegan and if not why not.

Unfortunately the video ended before he answered the question --- very frustrating( and strange as it was only 2 mins into a 7 min video when it went blank) as this is a question I have long wondered about regarding Eckhart.

Could anyone who has seen the video (or who just knows) tell me what the answer is to this question

Many Thanks :)
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Re: vegetarian/vegan

Postby Manyana » Mon Jun 23, 2014 2:35 pm

Hi Trev, he said that he is not vegetarian, but chooses to eat meat from animals that have been treated humanely. He also said its important not to make being vegetarian part of an identity.
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Re: vegetarian/vegan

Postby Trev » Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:52 pm

Thanks for your reply.

I do love eckhart's teachings and believe he has deep insights into reality but in this area of condoning the unnecessary slaughter of animals I do think he is wrong and cannot deny I feel a definite sense of disappointment.I cannot imagine a spiritual teaching standing in the middle of the slaughterhouse surrounded by the butchery when fear, pain and death are all around and hear them saying 'this is all ok -- allow and condone its continuation by consuming its products' any more than I can imagine him condoning any other form of violence eg rape or murder. Surely the minimising of suffering and the promotion of compassion and kindness is of the utmost importance to anyone who pertains to live a 'spiritual' life and as the consumption of any animal product is totally unnecessary for health it seem a massive contradiction.
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Re: vegetarian/vegan

Postby Manyana » Wed Jun 25, 2014 2:53 pm

Hopefully that clip will become available again, because he does spend most of his answer talking about how badly animals are treated.
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Re: vegetarian/vegan

Postby Enlightened2B » Wed Jun 25, 2014 5:49 pm

Trev wrote:Thanks for your reply.

I do love eckhart's teachings and believe he has deep insights into reality but in this area of condoning the unnecessary slaughter of animals I do think he is wrong and cannot deny I feel a definite sense of disappointment.I cannot imagine a spiritual teaching standing in the middle of the slaughterhouse surrounded by the butchery when fear, pain and death are all around and hear them saying 'this is all ok -- allow and condone its continuation by consuming its products' any more than I can imagine him condoning any other form of violence eg rape or murder. Surely the minimising of suffering and the promotion of compassion and kindness is of the utmost importance to anyone who pertains to live a 'spiritual' life and as the consumption of any animal product is totally unnecessary for health it seem a massive contradiction.


I will give you my opinion and only mine. You think this way because you don't understand how eating 'humanely' is incredibly different than the factory farmed meat you buy at your conventional store. I mean that politely. Most people conflate the two together because they assume that eating meat is the same as the crappy meats we see in fast food joints which is so far from the truth. It's just a form of ignorance by vegan propaganda.

First of all, as I advise to everyone, please stop taking dietary advice from someone who has no knowledge of nutrition or understanding of what the human body needs to survive. Eckhart's teachings were life changing for me, but he is not a nutritionist nor someone who understands what is right for your body nor does he claim to be. Everyone's body is bio chemically unique. What works for one will not work for another because we each have different metabolisms. Where do you think you get fat soluble vitamins A, D, K and essential B vitamins from? Pasture raised Animal products. However, not the typical animal products you think of. Humanely raised, pasture raised animals raised without hormones or antibiotics in a stress free environment. If you actually attended a farm and see for yourself how these animals were raised, you'd have a very different outlook.

If this still does not convince you, then you need to understand the circle of life is a very part of existence in this physical form. We are omnivores meaning, we are designed to eat BOTH plants AND animals. You can eat a plant based diet, but you will likely not be attaining the full range of nutrients that are available in animal products. Life and death are taking place every day even within your own body. Your GI tract is an ecosystem of life (bacteria, yeast, that is essential for the gut). Understand that by eating certain foods loaded with crap, you destroy those forms of life as you do when you take certain medications such as antibiotics. So, you could be killing life in your own body and you're not even realizing it, yet you're afraid to kill other animals which doesn't chime.

Even the Dalai Lama eats meat now. It's where you are getting your meat sourced from which is most pertinent. You have every right to eat whatever diet you choose. You have the free will to do as such. If you feel better eating a plant based diet, then by all means, I recommend to keep up with it as there is no one sized fits all diet. However, doing it for moral reasons alone is a silly reason if you ask me because you could be causing more harm than good in your own body by depriving your body of what it really needs because of 'beliefs'. I can only give you my opinion as someone who has extensively studied nutrition and digestion. Ask any questions and I'd be glad to answer.

Edit: One other thing to consider here is that Vegetables and fruits are also living 'beings'. Source is alive in everything with just different levels of awareness due to brain structures. Granted, we can insinuate that plants, trees and fruits don't feel the 'pain' that humans and animals might endure, yet they are still the same source that we, ourselves are at our essence. So, how is killing plants and fruits for food, really any different in order to sustain life? It's hypocritical to think so. It's all God, Source, Beingness in different forms of expression. Yet, our minds tell us otherwise, based on our beliefs.
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Re: vegetarian/vegan

Postby Onceler » Wed Jun 25, 2014 8:31 pm

I eat mostly whole plants, but I follow the 10% animal product guideline, based on the China Study, and it's worked out for me. I probably eat less than 10% most weeks. It's feeing not to have to rigidly adhere to a certain set of rules. I've also found that dairy products are harder for my body to deal with than meat and tend to avoid them althogether.

After over two years of this diet I naturally prefer plants and unprocessed foods. 2 weeks in Europe was difficult as I didn't have access to as many fresh fruits and vegs.....however I didn't sweat going 'off' my diet.....and the bread, cheese and chocolate were amazing. I've been eating nothing but plants since I got back, can't get enough!

As far as the sentience of plants, I agree. I've taken to visualizing the plants that I'm about to eat in their natural form and thanking them. This acknowledgement feels right and seems to close an agreement.
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Re: vegetarian/vegan

Postby Enlightened2B » Wed Jun 25, 2014 8:47 pm

Nice going Onceler. I eat no processed foods either. That's the one that we can all agree on :D heh. Granted, I've found a lot of faults with the China Study which there's absolutely no reason to go into here on this forum, it sounds like you're doing really good on your dietary path and you approach food in the right way as do I, in taking appreciation for anything you eat.

I'm going back to school for the study of holistic nutrition as I've had a lot of health issues over the years which I've improved greatly with the study of diet and nutrition. So, I tend to cringe when people discuss stuff pertaining to diet like Trev is doing from a seemingly 'spiritual' perspective. Spirituality really has nothing to do with this topic in my opinion. It's only our beliefs that tell us so. There is a clear science to food and the body. There is no one size fits all diet. Everyone's body is different biochemically speaking. Some people have faster metabolic rates and require more protein while others are slower and require more carbs. Some people do really well on plant based diets and others do not (like myself). I've dated vegans in the past who ate that way because they felt good doing so and who's to tell them otherwise if they feel good doing it? The only way we alter our views/beliefs on diet and food is when sickness takes over and we are forced to open up and watch as the beliefs crumble and perhaps embrace a different way of looking at food from a nourishing perspective.
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Re: vegetarian/vegan

Postby Trev » Wed Jun 25, 2014 9:20 pm

There are so many things wrong with your 'informed' reply I dont know where to start!!!

I think one of the most glaring errors is that you insist on the old fashioned, outdated theory that eating meat is necessary for optimal nutrition when that is simply not the case --in fact rather than promoting health there is a huge amount of evidence that points to many of the chronic diseases prevalent in the western world are in large part caused by our consumption of animal products. Organisations such as the NHS, British Dietetic Association and British Medical Association have all stated that a vegan diet supplies all required nutrients and can reduce the incidence of many of the main killers in the west eg heart disease. So long as the body is supplied with amino acids, fats, vitamins(all the ones you mentioned can be found from plant sources) minerals,and carbohydrate it will remain in optimal health regardless of source. I and many of my friends as well as the millions of vegans around the world are living proof of this fact. Also as I mentioned there are individuals incl the elite athletes I mentioned are able to perform to a level most of the meat eating population could only dream of shows that a vegan diet is not only 'capable of providing what the human body needs to survive' but is absolutely healthy and nutritious capable of providing optimal health.

The point re stress free 'happy meat' is also flawed. I do not see how even free range meat can be thought of as OK because I cannot square the circle of fattening then slaughtering conscious beings can be seen as a humane thing to do especially when -to state the point again- it is unnecessary. I think impossible that there is not some form of suffering in the process. All the talk of humanely raised animals is about us --it makes us feel better when we can read the label stuck on their corpses that they had a free range existence. By the way this way of raising animals would be impossible to feed the whole population because of the vast amount of land it would require.

You mention the old meat industry propanganda re its a natural thing to do- cycle of life and all that. Yes life and death is a part of living but that does not mean we should not reduce our contribution to suffering to the greatest degree possible. The difference between us and say a lion is that the lion has no choice in what it eats, it acts purely instinctively -- we can use our reason and make choices in line with that. It also seems strange that meat eaters want to use true animal carnivores as a standard for their own morality. We have always fought wars, murdered and raped throughout our history and it could probably be argued that these are also 'natural' things to do but are you saying we shouldn't try to stop them.

I think you answered your own objection re with trying to equate animals such as a pig with vegetables.. say a carrot(and the GI bacteria thing) --its almost too absurd to comment on!! Yes they are all forms of the one life and maybe from an ultimate perspective its beingness eating beingness but in our practical everyday moral choices we must make distinctions -- from an ultimate perspective there is nothing lost or gained when one human kills another -- its a form merging back into its source -- but that doesn't mean we shouldn't outlaw the practice!!

Free choice of diet is all well and good and sounds ever so democratic -- unless you happen to be one of the species who is on the receiving end without a voice and totally powerless to act against the suffering inflicted upon it. If we could go back a few hundred years there were no doubt slave owners saying they had a freedom to keep slaves if they chose to and who no doubt asked those in the anti slave movement to keep their noses out and leave them to have their 'freedoms'
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Re: vegetarian/vegan

Postby Enlightened2B » Wed Jun 25, 2014 9:36 pm

You know Trev, I've argued this far too many times in the past with vegans and it's only going to go in circles. Not to mention that I've cured some of own diseases (Adrenal Fatigue, crohns, IBS and thyroid issues) by switching to animal fats from properly sourced locations along with fermented foods. My crohns rarely acts up these days due to my diet. Guess you can't explain that? Your response is filled with so many misguided beliefs from so many misguided sources (such as government organizations that have agendas that don't have a clue as to what is considered healthy) that there is no point in discussing this further because you're too dead set on what YOU believe to be right. The difference between me and you is that I've been down the vegetarian route and finally acknowledged it wasn't right for me and allowed myself to go beyond those beliefs I had about food to actually experiment and see what WAS right for my body and realize that omnivorous diets are right for me. Perhaps you will too one day.

You probably completely ignored the link I sent you in the other post as well from the Weston A Price foundation which is perfectly fine.

You like veganism? By all means, continue at it Trev.

I wish you luck.
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Re: vegetarian/vegan

Postby Enlightened2B » Wed Jun 25, 2014 9:58 pm

Trev wrote:I think one of the most glaring errors is that you insist on the old fashioned, outdated theory that eating meat is necessary for optimal nutrition when that is simply not the case --in fact rather than promoting health there is a huge amount of evidence that points to many of the chronic diseases prevalent in the western world are in large part caused by our consumption of animal products.


Forgot to respond to this part which I meant to. This is the most mis-guided of all of the vegan propaganda. Now, tell me what KINDS of meat are causing chronic diseases? the answer? It's conventional meat loaded with hormones and antibiotics and other crap. Now, why don't you go do the research on the health benefits of humanely raised meat raised on pastures with no GMO, no soy, no antibiotics, and no hormones and tell me how many chronic diseases this type of meat is actually REVERSING. You won't find this in mainstream literature because the mainstream you are posting about along with vegan websites are only studying conventional factory meat which IS incredibly unhealthy. There is an incredible WORLD of difference between eating factory farmed conventional meat and grass fed/pasture raised meat and eggs. You just haven't done the research.

here's that link again for you in case you want to take a look. Just open your mind a bit.

http://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/abcs-of-nutrition/myths-of-vegetarianism/

That's all I have to say. I'll leave the rest up to you.
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Re: vegetarian/vegan

Postby Trev » Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:35 am

Well we've found one thing we can agree on enlightened2b --- we are coming from different sides of the argument and probably will not find agreement on this important issue. I hope you will open your mind as it seems very tightly closed to me. But I'm sorry to hear of your health problems and wish you well.

The facts are there in front of anyone with a mind that has not been blinded by the conditioning of our society that makes it socially acceptable to use animals as commodities for our own ends. If we were talking about violence committed towards other human beings there would be a resounding agreement to end it by all yet when it is violence committed towards another species it suddenly becomes a matter of personal choice/freedom, an example of ego arising to form a false identity etc etc. I suggest this mechanism is ego forming justifications to continue as it always has, justifying what on clear examination is unjustifiable.

Fact -for the VAST majority of human beings meat eating is a totally unnecessary act. It is a choice not a necessity of life -a choice that is driven by tradition and the trivial reason that pleasure is derived from the eating of the flesh of the slaughtered animal.

Fact- during the production of meat vast amounts of suffering take place from the factory farm to transportation to putting these sensitive creatures into the tender care of the slaughter house workers. To think that buying free range meat is OK requires an enormous amount of self deception as suffering and violence is inherent in the processing of animals through a slaughterhouse.

There are so many other levels to this issue incl environmental degradation, impact on human health, the use of grain/soy obtained from poor often starving third world countries used to feed the animals etc etc. (as a start please have a look at the free kindle book I mentioned earlier called 'Why we should go vegan 'by magnus vinding it will cost nothing but may allow the scales to fall from your eyes)

These are not just my beliefs -- commons sense and a little research prove them to be true beyond all doubt.

This issue is very much a spiritual one if we feel that our spiritual practice should drive our actions in positive way in the sense of showing compassion and empathy towards others and minimising the suffering we see around us in the world. This seems to me integral to living a spiritual life.
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Re: vegetarian/vegan

Postby Enlightened2B » Thu Jun 26, 2014 5:13 pm

Yeah, just ignore the link I sent you which basically refutes everything you've written in a clear scientific manner.

You can have the last word though. enjoy :D
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Re: vegetarian/vegan

Postby EnterZenFromThere » Sat Jun 28, 2014 9:34 pm

Onceler wrote:I've taken to visualizing the plants that I'm about to eat in their natural form and thanking them. This acknowledgement feels right and seems to close an agreement.


Hey Onceler,

I like to do this too :) respect and appreciation are such important things. They change us. We have such an intimate physical relationship with our food (in the sense that it passes through our physical body to regions nearly entirely untouched by the outside world) that it makes sense to me to offer it respect to aid in the transfer of energy from one being to another.

Incidentally, I've been watching a few documentaries lately about techniques to prevent cancer that have been suppressed by mainstream medicine. Does anyone here know much about the Gerson Technique or the use of cannabis oil in the treatment of cancer? From the research I've come across they seem to be able to cure people completely in a short time with little/no side effects, even when a patient was given a few weeks to live by their doctor following chemotherapy, radiotherapy and surgery. It seems like such an important subject that I might add a separate topic about it to open up the debate. If it works and a few people find it from a post here then what a wonderful thing to do!

Much love to you all,

Jack
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Re: vegetarian/vegan

Postby Onceler » Sat Jun 28, 2014 11:09 pm

Glad you can relate, Jack. Regarding cancer treatment, the nutrition guy I follow is Dr. Joel Fuhrman. He doesn't make claims for a cure but follows a reasearch based protocol and maintains that a predominantly plant diet contains so many more phyto chemicals and nutrients which help prevent cancer and other diseases than your standard diet. His patients have amazing and predictable recovery from chronic diseases like cardiovascular diseases, auto-immune diseases, and other chronic conditions like arthritis, etc.
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Re: vegetarian/vegan

Postby EnterZenFromThere » Sun Jun 29, 2014 12:07 am

Ah yes I know of him. I read Eat To Live a few months back and have been semi getting into the mode he recommends.

I had an interesting wake up call about the medical profession and nutrition over the last month [I'm going to let it all out - if you make it through the stream of consciousness presented here I take my hat off to you :lol:], I've had chronic gum infections due to wisdom teeth problems for a good few years and recently they were getting worse. I took metronidazole to fight the infection. This is a potent antibiotic which gave me headaches, nausea and other symptoms bad enough to keep me out of work for a week. I got back to work and promptly passed out after a meeting with my boss and hit my head on my colleagues door (which both at the time, and looking back on it now, I find hilarious!). Turns out the metronidazole wore me down so much I got tonsillitis. So I was off for another week and put on penicillin. Then my gum flared up again and I was put back on metronidazole which made me feel terrible.

It was at this time I stumbled on a documentary about the Gerson Technique, stating how chemotherapy and radiotherapy harm the body and nutritional techniques work with the body. This opened my eyes and I looked up alternatives to antibiotics for gum infections. Straight away I found a report on how salt water is more effective than antibiotics because they fight the infection and also remove bacterial toxins. Without this removal, saliva has to clear up the toxins instead of performing it's usual role of keeping the mouth healthy. So salt water both kills the harmful bacteria AND assists the body in keeping itself healthy. I stopped the antibiotics and started washing my mouth with salt water. The effects were rapid with the swelling going down and within a couple of days the infection totally cleared up and hasn't come back. I'm just getting over a flare up of glandular fever that I believe is associated with my weakened sate following all the antibiotics. If I had just swilled my mouth with salt water the moment I felt pain in my gums I doubt these other, nastier elements would have come in and I wouldn't have been ill and off work for the last 5 weeks. It's funny because my mum and even a stranger I chatted to on the street recommended washing my mouth with salt water but, as someone with a few years medical training, I felt that the scientific evidence would recommend salt water if it were truly effective.

I saw 6 medical professionals while I've been ill (dentists, doctors and a nurse) and none of them recommended washing my mouth with salt water. To my mind, this is a case of business profits vs health benefits. Promoting salt water would not make sense in a pharmaceutical business model. To my mind, the same it true of chemotherapy, radiotherpay and cancer and who knows what else. I've done a lot of research in these last weeks into how and why a profession designed to promote the health of our nations may be doing us harm for profit and the evidence disturbed me at first.

It seems that at the turn of the 20th century there was a battle between two health professions. One recommended fighting disease and symptoms (medical profession), the other recommended helping the body instead (holistic tradition). JD Rockefella and JP Morgan used their enormous wealth to support the medical profession. [NB JD Rockefella was the founder of Standard Oil which sold oil to both the Nazis and the allies during WW2 - he made $200 million and enabled to Nazi bombing of Britain]. The medical profession formed the American Medical Association which used the money from these financial elites to set up the teaching and research infrastructure necessary for the furtherment of their profession. In return, Rockefella and Morgan filled the AMA executive board with their own people. These people pushed for pharmaceuticals to be the focus of all teaching and research in the medical profession. They also launched a media war again the holistic tradition which is where the term 'quack' comes from. These individuals have gained enormous amounts of money and power over the people through these methods. I choose to believe that this is what is happening. I also choose to believe these individuals head up arms companies, food industries, chemical companies and through lobbying of government, ownership of global government (there is a lot of high quality evidence out there on this topic if you feel inclined to do your own investigations).

So this all seems really bad at first. And can be framed negatively. But then I realised that the whole thing can be switched around. Just like stopping taking antibiotics and using salt water instead, I can change from trusting these corrupt institutions and stand on my own two feet as an independent sovereign of my own Being. I can change my diet and not blindly follow the advice of professionals who have been brainwashed through their arduous education and professional environment. It's been a hugely eye opening experience. I realise my body is a community of trillions of cells over which I, as the personality, have a responsibility of care. I choose now to acknowledge and love each and every cell in my body and to trust them when they call to me. To move into alignment with them and my Higher Being, thus creating the harmony between body, mind and soul that I believe we are meant to experience in this journey of conscious expansion. I could choose to live in fear of a ruling elite that see me as cattle. Or I could choose to love them, as I love all that is. To see them as expressions of the same Divinity as everything else and love and respect their individual journeys while simultaneously choosing to create a future reality that is free of their tyranny. I do this not by focusing on them as something negative to be changed, but by focusing on the positive that I wish to be. I wish to feel love in every moment I exist. To be fully aligned with my Higher Being and fully committed to following my Higher Being as it dances through comparisons toward it's desires.

Which leads me seamlessly to...

I'm looking into the Gerson Technique now as well to see which is most beneficial and practical for me. The Gerson Technique involves caffeine enemas which sound like a bit of an adventure - one I'm not 100% I'd like to take! The evidence is that the caffeine is uptaken by the rectal vein straight to the liver which then produces a blood cleaning chemical (I forget the name) in response to the caffeine. This results in purification of the liver and much cleaner blood which then promotes the removal of toxins from all body cells. The technique combines this with concentrated organic vegetable and fruit juices and lots of raw organic vegetables and fruits. The evidence suggests this technique can prevent virtually all diseases. These sound like bold claims, but the evidence is there.

I feel it's fitting to finish off this unusually long post with the mantras that flow through this wonderful mind of mine whenever I feel concern over the global situation:

I am Love ... by the Love I feel for those who would harm me.
I am Light ... by the Light I see in those who would harm me.
I am Word ... by knowing that those who would harm me are the Word.

Much love to you all,

Jack
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