vegetarian/vegan

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Re: vegetarian/vegan

Postby Onceler » Sun Jun 29, 2014 4:17 am

Sounds right, Jack. I had the same eye opening experience with the medical profession when I watched my wife's genetically high cholesterol do better with diet and wholistic treatement than with cholesterol medication. It's stunning what big pharma is doing, but I also think big food has a dog in the race. They sell highly addictive food, practically devoid of nutrition, which is essentially toxic over the long haul, and then turn the consumer over to the medical profession to relieve the symptoms they themselves created. Pharma and the doctors say thank-you and endorse the next crazy high fat diet that comes around.

I feel my growing awareness has sensitized me to my body and what it needs, much like you describe, but perhaps a bit less cosmic :wink: , and my natural taste and intelligence kicks in. I was addicted to their food and it was damaging me emotionally and physically. Coming out of that trance was was my first real understanding of how deep conditioning can run and how hard it is to stop. When you come out from under the spell you see it. They exploit our desire.....and our fear, as they are greedy and fearful.

I hope you heal soon.
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Re: vegetarian/vegan

Postby EnterZenFromThere » Sun Jun 29, 2014 11:33 am

Onceler wrote:It's stunning what big pharma is doing, but I also think big food has a dog in the race. They sell highly addictive food, practically devoid of nutrition, which is essentially toxic over the long haul, and then turn the consumer over to the medical profession to relieve the symptoms they themselves created. Pharma and the doctors say thank-you and endorse the next crazy high fat diet that comes around.


Absolutely. All these industries feed into one another with fear, control and greed. The same companies that profits from extracting oil from war zones are the ones that produce military weapons and equipment and the ones that do the post war construction (e.g. Halliburton). The whole thing is set up with deliberate intention to control the people with debt. The end goal seems to be microchipping the population - all money is on the chip, if you do something they don't like, the chip gets turned off and you get cut off from the system. Believe it or not this has already begun in the US, with families getting chipped following 9/11. I find the move toward destroying natural water supplies with fracking quite disturbing. The documentary 'Gasland' reports the effects of fracking very well. Put into the global framework already described it makes sense that the population of water is less about laziness and more about intentionally destroying the water supplies so that water can be turned into a commodity. Nestle made $3.5 billion from bottled water sales in a recent year. They suck a lot of it from natural US springs. It seems there is an intent to suck us dry into slavery.

But all that said, knowledge is our freedom. Knowing what I now know I am taking positive steps to improve the quality of nutrients to my body. And to focus my creative attention on what I want more of rather than what I fear. I am love incarnate.

Onceler wrote:I feel my growing awareness has sensitized me to my body and what it needs, much like you describe, but perhaps a bit less cosmic


I've said it before, but I want to say again, I love how we're coming at this from different angles. To me it is a celebration of the diversity of life. We stand alone, you and I, standing on our own two feet. Yet in our separate sovereignty we are united through mutual respect and appreciation. Through that we can co-create a world of love and beauty and respect.

Incidentally, if you ever want to get a little bit comic :p all you have to do is ask for it :)

Much love to you,

Jack
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Re: vegetarian/vegan

Postby Onceler » Sun Jun 29, 2014 1:05 pm

Hmmmmmm. Thanks, Jack. A lot to think about. Yes, we can only change ourselves and then perhaps radiate a bit. Many things are possible once we step outside the conditioning. We're talking about changing our bodies and minds by what we put into our bodies, which can be potent, do you think that our bodies/minds undergo an internal change as we awaken and release fear? At the cellular level? Or is it that we just make different choices about what we chose to bring into our bodies. I'd like to think internal and external ( for lack of better words) changes potentiate each other, not sure tho.
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Re: vegetarian/vegan

Postby EnterZenFromThere » Sun Jun 29, 2014 1:35 pm

I believe It's at every level: atom, cell, tissue, organ, organ system, organism, mind, aura. I see it all as a dynamic system where everything effects everything else. But in terms of direction, feeling leads to thought form leads to physical creation. But then physical effects thought effects feeling etc etc. According to Abraham-Hicks, we are meant to be discerning between what we want less of and what we want more of and then focusing our attention on what we want more of and through the process of feelings and thoughts these become manifest as physical reality. The reason we have made such a mistake in this world is because we are entrained in focusing on the negative or trying to change the negative rather than just focusing on what we would rather have. The soul immediately moves to what it would rather have and the mind/body is in catch up mode. This creates a disconnect that we feel as unhappiness. At any time we can choose to move back into alignment by following our desires for what we feel is right. Sometimes people go their whole lives without doing this. But at death there is a process of re syncing and alignment is amended. Then into the next life. That's roughly how it feels at the moment. So much more to learn and discover!

Do you mean anything specific by internal change in mind / body? I see these two elements as constantly dynamic, always in change. It seems to me that there are certain parameters though, which were determined by our choice prior to incarnation. In the mind I think of this as the personality. Like the personality is the mould that the mind fits into. It has room to change within the mould but the mould is rigid within this lifetime. The body also seems to have certain parameters, such as our natural body weight which is relevant to the thread as I believe a healthy, appropriate diet will come to those who awaken / release fear.

Regarding your comment 'we can only change ourselves and radiate a bit', I'd go further and say through our change of ourselves we change the entire world, the entire universe and beyond. We can radiate A LOT! We are the explorers and creators of physical reality. Or rather through the portal that is the mind/body, physical reality is altered by the soul/God. Our position here is much more significant than is appreciated in the mainstream. The only limitations to our creative potential are the limitations we place on it.

So I see it :)

Much love to you,

Jack
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Re: vegetarian/vegan

Postby Onceler » Sun Jun 29, 2014 3:48 pm

Very cool, Jack. I'm only cautious as it's a growing awareness and much speculation on my part. I've learned my lesson about personal pronouncements, things change too fast for that. I like what you say about shifting our focus to the positive. This is my experience as well. Much of my life was a deep study on fear and negativity.....that's changing rapidly.....the results can be astounding. If you take ordinary reality, subtract fear and negativity, what's left is a rich life that seemingly needs no alterations. Awareness is deconstructing in my experience. A constant undoing to allow the raw richness and plain sweetness in. As cosmic as I get.....
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Re: vegetarian/vegan

Postby EnterZenFromThere » Sun Jun 29, 2014 4:44 pm

Onceler wrote:A constant undoing to allow the raw richness and plain sweetness in. As cosmic as I get.....


Haha! Thank you for getting cosmic :)

Onceler wrote:I've learned my lesson about personal pronouncements, things change too fast for that.


By this do you mean saying things about yourself with certainty as if they will not change? I agree it can be dangerous. Like those people who have an experience or read some books and think "I've got all this life thing sorted out perfectly - nothing will change that". And behold! They do not change! For they choose the absence of change :lol: I agree with you in that sense (if that was what you meant - if not please enlighten me). But in another way I feel personal pronouncements are extremely powerful and beneficial. If you tell yourself that you love yourself every day chances are you're going to create love for yourself. If you say you are love then it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. I am my soul. I choose to align with my soul. Help me see beyond the physical. Unite the body mind and soul in the harmony of the greatest light. For me where I stand free and independent in my own divinity here and now I choose this as the power of creation. I take responsibility of it. This is my choice. I love and respect you and your choices but also want to offer my take so that more options are available should anyone resonate in this direction and choose to move this way.

Onceler wrote:Much of my life was a deep study on fear and negativity.....that's changing rapidly.....the results can be astounding.


I'm very happy about this :) this seems the most important to me right now. As much as I love to go on about the cosmic stuff, this is the real crux we all need to focus on right now (in my humble opinion). I'd love to hear some examples if you'd like to share them.

Onceler wrote:If you take ordinary reality, subtract fear and negativity, what's left is a rich life that seemingly needs no alterations. Awareness is deconstructing in my experience. A constant undoing to allow the raw richness and plain sweetness in.


I certainly agree that life is more enjoyable and free when the constrictive elements of fear are released. For me this means embracing fear and loving it. Any movement away from fear is just the same fear. Love is the all inclusive force and that acceptance is the freedom. (I like to speak with more certainty these days as it magnifies the love for me, of course I also appreciate that other views are available :)). Would you agree with this or do you have a different take?

When you say awareness is deconstructing do you mean that being aware of your fear deconstructs your fear? If so I agree. But I'm a little wary of using a word like deconstructing if it is used to imply exclusion or removal. I feel over our lives we have created conditioning that impedes our development. Awareness of this conditioning creates the movement away from it, which I guess is a deconstruction but deconstruction in an inclusive, creative sense. It's always inclusion. I think of my ever expanding awareness as constructive! I feel the raw richness and plain sweetness (which I think is a delicious way of putting it :D ) is in constant motion. Yes there is undoing of that which prevented that experience from being felt through alignment with it, but from my perspective it feels that the continuous creation and expansion is fundamental.

You seem like an open and well balanced guy so I'm sure you'll see these words for what they are. Just my take that I offer for the joy of expressing it and for the option of exploration if you (or any other reading this) wish it.

My love to you and yours - thank you for providing the opportunity for me to air these feelings,

Jack
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Re: vegetarian/vegan

Postby Onceler » Mon Jun 30, 2014 4:09 am

Regarding personal pronouncements; yes, saying things with certainty can be dangerous, or at least I end up eating my words. I could never say that I have achieved a certain state or insight because these seem ephemeral to me. Having said that, here is what I experience:

Examples of life with less fear; My usual anxieties and compulsions are disappearing along with that de-energizing depth of depression that makes it difficult to think. I am interested in what's around me and rarely bored. Life seems to move at an even pace that is immersive, yet I can stand away from or it chose to go into it at a deeper level....which slows things down. I can't always do this, but can do so when I am aware of the choice. I am often more social, but also can withdrawal and protect myself. I seem to have a better radar for people. I feel much less shame and self recrimination. Sometimes I am dis-inhibited to the point it is a bit embarrassing and I have to watch myself.....the usual constraints set by fear and anxiety aren't there as much.

By deconstructing I mean that awareness deconstructs my negative conditioning and negative thinking. This is an ongoing process with fits and starts. I agree that there is greater creativity and spontaneity without fear and the deconstruction could be creative. I really enjoy what is real and what is in front of me. I really don't have aspirations for anything else, can't imagine it I guess. I don't seem wired for cosmic experiences, bliss and, unity consciousness. I once craved it, but am very satisfied with my life. The richness seems to come from greater acceptance and immersion into reality. Utter, utter, ordinariness.

I am open to a certain extent and can be balanced or unbalanced. I do really love to hear about the perceptions and experiences of others. It is brilliant that we are all so different, so thanks for expressing yourself so well, always good to hear about your adventures.
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Re: vegetarian/vegan

Postby KathleenBrugger » Mon Jun 30, 2014 7:16 pm

Wow what an interesting conversation! I love what you just shared onceler about the changes you are experiencing with less fear...particularly the dis-inhibited part. I feel that too and it feels so free!

Jack thanks for sharing about your recent experience. I had something similar, and wrote to a friend: "Lesson learned: these so-called professionals in health care don't give a damn about you so you really have to be pro-active." Absolutely there is a link between Big Food and Big Pharma and doctors and dentists are on the side of their profit, not your health.

I'd like to go back to the OP and share a little, not sure if Trev is still following the thread, but anyway....I was an extremely committed vegetarian for 25 years and a vegan for two of those. I used to talk just like Trev here and was totally self-righteous. "You couldn't be a meat-eater and care about the environment," I'd say.

One experience I had is relevant to some of the things you've said Trev. Once I was on a business trip and was close to where my grandmother lived. I called her and suggested I take her out to dinner so I wouldn't have to explain all about vegetarianism and put a burden on her trying to figure out how to feed me. When I got there, my grandmother had prepared dinner, saying she thought it would be nicer to stay in and visit more. What had she prepared? Sliced ham, potato salad, and some kind of jello salad. I thought about it: refuse to eat the meat and stick with my principles was a possibility. But I also thought that this would probably hurt my grandmother, and hurting her seemed a lot worse in the overall scheme of things than putting a little ham in my mouth. I remembered what Jesus said, "It's not important what goes into your mouth, it's important what comes out." So I ate that ham and enjoyed it and felt fine.

About 10 years ago I started eating meat again for various reasons. One was that I had started a business and was working 7 days a week and just couldn't handle the effort of cooking vegetarian. I don't feel less healthy, if anything I am stronger. I don't feel like meat eating has made me less "spiritual" either! But I also consume much more in the way of fruits and vegetables than the average American. And I eat no processed food or much in the way of industrial agriculture.

One more thing: I am a fan of evolutionary biology. If you read the research, you will hear that scientists think it's when our ancestors started eating meat that our big brains really took off. Mental activity is extremely energy-intensive--maybe 20% of the energy consumed by the entire body--and plants did not provide enough concentrated calories to support a human-sized brain. You can talk about the cooperative efforts in hunting as an essential part of our evolution also. So meat consumption is an essential part of what it took to evolve homo sapiens. A friend of mine called his masters thesis in transpersonal psychology "The Feast That Eats Itself." Life feeds on itself. It's beautiful.
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Re: vegetarian/vegan

Postby Admiral Akmir » Fri Jul 04, 2014 6:49 pm

I'm not a vegan, but I've found this guys videos to be pretty informative.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaiU6RVC2Jk

He's covered pretty much every argument that's come from the low carb, high fat, or "paleo" people. It hasn't turned me to become vegan, but it has made me weary of listening to diet blogs or information that comes from "nutrition" websites.
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Re: vegetarian/vegan

Postby Enlightened2B » Fri Jul 04, 2014 10:48 pm

Admiral,

Did you happen to look at the person who posted this link and what THEY advocate as a diet?

It's good you're skeptical about diets and don't just believe what you hear, but experience like anything is first and foremost.

There is no one size fits all diet for any of humanity. However, the WAPF has basically saved my life physically when it comes to diet. I love how the video completely ignores the thousands if not millions of people who have actually been HELPED by the WAP/Paleo diet. I have TONS of friends who have all been helped drastically by switching to a WAP themed lifestyle and many of these prior vegans.

Those who knock it have not experienced it themselves or they, themselves have eaten the wrong diet for THEIR particular metabolism. Understand that some people do better on higher protein diets, while others thrive more so on higher carb diets and even plant based diets. It's called metabolic typing.

To say that increasing saturated fat is bad for your body is just so utterly, poor, poor, poor dietary information that it's basically nonsenical and those who advocate it are nutritionally illiterate and largely coming from biased sources such as this particular video or the mainstream who is just clueless on this stuff. I know this from years of intense nutritional research. I went vegeterian for a time period (not vegan) and my body felt worse than ever. As soon, I introduced higher saturated fat and eventually animal fats/meats/organ meats/fermented foods, my GI conditions changed drastically!

Veganism/vegetarianism can be excellent short term solutions for people who are first getting off the SAD (Standard American Diet) and they can really help people detoxify in the short term. However, in the long term, more often than not, people wind up merging towards omnivorous diets to some capacity, because your body cannot access certain nutrients from veganism alone. Vitamin B12 is absolutely impossible to attain without animal products. There are a slew of other vitamins which can be attained from plant foods, but not in their proper form, which only can be attained from animal products. There are just so many poor myths that are thrown around about the WAPF that are simply wrong. The fact that this video would condone eating soy, just goes to show how completely ignorant they are.

Some of Dr. Prices' initial testimonies can be outdated form his work. The WAPF is not perfect, but what they advocate is based on sound nutritional evidence. Utilize your own experience is all I can advise.

And if it's only solace, here's the link again which retorts every single one of those points that this video makes and even more:

http://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/abcs-of-nutrition/myths-of-vegetarianism/

You need to look at both sides to make an opinion.
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Re: vegetarian/vegan

Postby Trev » Sun Jul 06, 2014 2:19 pm

I am never ceased to be amazed at how it is often thought that meat is some kind of magical dietary panacea for health and vitality -- probably the result of years and years of conditioning from the all powerful meat and dairy industries and traditional family coercion of the "if you dont eat your meat you wont grow up to be big and strong" variety!! A piece of meat is broken down in the stomach into its constituent parts ie) a collection of protein, vitamins, fats etc which are then distributed around the body to be used as required. ALL of these things can be got from vegan sources. Do not believe anyone who tells you otherwise - they are talking utter nonsense. If it were true that any important nutrient could only be got from meat/animal sources then the millions of vegans would be getting very ill very quickly and if you look around you will see that is not the case - why? - obviously they are getting all they need from vegan sources. This is particularily true for the growing numbers of vegan athletes in all fields incl ultra marathoners, cage fighters/MMA, strength athletes and body builders who put their bodies under immense stress yet thrive and indeed reach their peak on a plant based diet. Google such incredible athletes such as Scott Jurek, Rich Rolls, Robert Cheeke, Matt Danzig etc etc. There are many many other great examples - if interested a good source is vegan fitness and bodybuilding website - a informative website in this area.

As this is a website aimed at people looking to develop spiritually please don't just look at the personal health issue either. There are billions(!!!) of animals being processed through factory farms and slaughterhouses, enduring what can only be described as hell on earth for this unnecessary practice - a practice that is based primarily on the pleasure of the palate and tradition. Be aware of the massive influence of social conditioning on your choices and the effect of those choices on other living, feeling beings. Have a look at the youtube video "if all slaughterhouses had glass walls" as a start. "Earthlings" is also extremely powerful. Try to extend your circle of compassion to other species as well as other people. The practice of compassion and empathy and right action is a cornerstone of any spiritual life.
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Re: vegetarian/vegan

Postby EnterZenFromThere » Sun Jul 06, 2014 3:53 pm

I'm going to play devils advocate and throw this out there. Maybe when we are born we choose certain aspects of the experience we would like to have in order to learn and grow. This may include experiencing suffering. Maybe animals go through the same process. Maybe the Earth goes through the same process. Maybe the suffering of all the animals in those slaughter houses is actually spirit engaging in the experience of suffering which it doesn't label as good or bad, but just an experience, that it has chosen. Perhaps Earth is spirit going through this same experience, and that only we label the pollution of the Earth as good or bad.

I just watched a George Carlin video where he said he hates (he used a lot stronger language - haha) it when people say that humans have to save the planet. The planet has undergone enormous events in it's billions of years of existence. Do we really think that the Earth is in any sort of threat from the 200 years of industrial activity of humans? He says, people who want to save the planet don't really care about the planet, they care about themselves. They want a good environment for themselves so they don't suffer. The Earth isn't in trouble. Humanity is. The Earth can create events that can wipe humanity off it's surface. We are like a mosquito ready to be swatted. *I'm paraphrasing, but this is my interpretation of what he was saying*

Essentially what I'm getting at is that maybe suffering is a choice. An individual choice, for the individual thing - human, animal, Earth - that suffers. To try and take control of the world and act like we know better than the spirit that has made those choices, is to move in opposition to the higher power of our true being (in my opinion). It is a hard pill to swallow, that all those people, and animals, and the Earth are suffering. We try and control it because a part of us wants to help - because to our mind this sort of helping will reduce the suffering that we experience through our interpretation of the suffering we perceive as bad. But is that really helping? Maybe the best way to help is to sort out our own shit and respectfully leave everyone else to sort out their own, in their own way, for their own benefit. Like watching a child about to run into a lamp post. You could run over and stop them. But would that help in the long run? Or would it make them over protected and give them emotional problems?

For me, the most loving thing to do is to find the love at your very own center and follow the guidance there. Radiate love from that space. Put it out there for people to take or leave. Kinda like this message - haha! Take it or leave it :p

Much love,

Jack
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Re: vegetarian/vegan

Postby Trev » Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:00 pm

Its a interesting take on things my friend!! I sort of get what you are saying but find it hard to swallow.

Are you really saying that if you see someone/thing suffering and you have the ability to help or alleviate that pain even if its just in some small way you would walk on by and assume(and thats all it is -an assumption) that the spirit has chosen to be in that position. Is that what you would do practically speaking??

Don't think its the philosophy for me! :)
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Re: vegetarian/vegan

Postby EnterZenFromThere » Sun Jul 06, 2014 6:33 pm

Haha that's not quite what I'm saying. It's great to be caring and loving to others! Unfortunately, like a teenage boy staring at the girl he's fallen in love with, I don't have how to express what I'm feeling - haha!

Trev wrote:Is that what you would do practically speaking??


Mostly just letting people speak and enjoying them doing it. Smile at people - haha - in London you have to be careful of that as people are more like "I'm on my way to work, don't look at me!". Not playing into the little dramas they go on about. My house mate does a lot of complaining and I usually just smile at her and let her let it out while I laugh (in a nice way - to let her know it isn't as big a deal as she's thinking). Letting people know I care about what they're saying by really being present for them and listening to them. It's a learning process though. Some people just leech and will keep going in circles. Like this homeless guy who came over and asked me for money so I spent some time with him and he just went on about what a victim he was and how desperate he was for my money. I just listened up to a point. Told him everything was fine and hugged him, but he just did the same over and over, so I walked away. He hung on for a while and eventually went away. I'm just loving everything that's happening (mostly..!) and enjoying the ride. It seems to be infectious, which is great! But I'm not really trying to make people happy. I'm just actually happy! Haha! Love yourself and that love will go to others by osmosis. It doesn't need to be forced like you're on a crusade or something. Even little things like getting up for someone on the train and giving them your seat. I wondered about this for a while, whether or not it's the 'right' thing to do. I remember watching people standing while I was sitting and watching the feeling I felt. Then I saw someone get up and let someone else sit. Sometimes they're appreciative and it's nice for the person who stood up. Sometimes they didn't want that - like it's charity or something. I usually just see what feels right in the moment. But it's not like I walk the streets going 'oh you poor lost soul! Come to me for my loving compassion!' haha!

Trev wrote:Don't think its the philosophy for me!


Haha yeah you do whatever you feel bro :)

Much love to you,

Jack
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Re: vegetarian/vegan

Postby Enlightened2B » Sun Jul 06, 2014 10:43 pm

Nicely said Jack. I like your approach to life.

Diet is really not supposed to be something we 'think' morally about. When you start to eat a certain way or live a certain lifestyle or identify with this, and that, and this and that for reasons other than health and nutrition, then you're identifying with your thoughts and in turn, living life from ego, which is what people in the vegan community do as well as people in the paleo community (granted, to a different extent, it still does become a form of identification with some). You're also limiting yourself and creating boundaries because you're believing your mind which tells you that 'I can't eat this food because it's morally wrong'. That's what religion does as well. It works the same on both sides and Trev, not knocking your lifestyle, but the way you're approaching it, sounds like you're doing just that.

I don't eat a diet because of what the conceptual notions that it represents nor have I ever. Just not my thing. I don't restrict my diet by not eating a certain food group because of what 'thoughts' says about it....aka...it's immoral.

I eat all food groups because my body feels good doing it and humans have been doing it since the beginning of time by eating traditional foods, properly prepared. Some foods might work better for others, but you can only judge that by how your body physically feels. I approach food from a place of conscious presence. I am grateful for the food I eat and make food choices based on what is good for this body and what nutritional science indicates about food and diet, and nothing else.

I don't associate with any social group, nor do I associate/identify with 'eating a certain way' because of what it represents. Believe it or not, it's this type of stuff which also leads to, political identification, ideological identification, religious identification, and eventually war, hatred and separation from each other instead of sticking with the 'I AM' of your existence and making conscious choices from there as opposed to choices from the ego.
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