vegetarian/vegan

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Re: vegetarian/vegan

Postby Trev » Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:44 pm

You know guys there are not many things in this life that I am certain about -- I am often unsure about which direction my life should take and am very much on the path and learning to accept life with all its myriad faces.

But there is one thing that I am certain about and that is that it is not the right path to engage in or condone and support anything which causes pain/suffering to another living being --especially when the exploitation and brutalisation it is totally unnecessary and the beings in question are totally unable to speak up for or defend themselves. I feel that in the depths of my core.

I again know as fact that the meat/dairy industries cause an immense amount of suffering for the beings on the receiving end in the factory farms, transportation and the slaughterhouses( as well as environmental damage and human illness) and I also know that the products of those industries are absolutely not necessary to life a healthy and vigorous life -- so for me and I know a growing number of others it is obvious to decline participation in those industries and become vegan. That is what I am saying in a nutshell.

I think that you must be very wary of using the 'you are thinking from ego' type of justification for the continuance of your way of thinking. All of us in this life have to make choices and choose to go one way or another based to a certain extent on judgements of what it is best to do. I think to have a general rule of 'cause the least amount of harm possible and show compassion and empathy' is a pretty good base on which to start
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Re: vegetarian/vegan

Postby Enlightened2B » Mon Jul 07, 2014 7:18 pm

No one can tell you what is right nor what is not right, especially for you. If you feel this is the right path for you, then so be it. Enjoy.
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Re: vegetarian/vegan

Postby EnterZenFromThere » Mon Jul 07, 2014 7:24 pm

Enlightened2B wrote:No one can tell you what is right nor what is not right, especially for you. If you feel this is the right path for you, then so be it. Enjoy.


Took the words out of my mouth :)

I hope you enjoy exploring this experience Trev. The way I see it, no matter what you do you are growing so it's all good in the hood!

Much love,

Jack
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Re: vegetarian/vegan

Postby Turmeric » Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:40 am

Manyana wrote:Hi Trev, he said that he is not vegetarian, but chooses to eat meat from animals that have been treated humanely.

I guess he has very few animals to choose from then. It seems extremely difficult to me to use animals for food and not let them (or their relatives) suffer in one way or another by your using.

Manyana wrote:He also said its important not to make being vegetarian part of an identity.

Indeed. That doesn't mean however there's anything wrong with living a vegetarian lifestyle or even a vegan lifestyle.
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Re: vegetarian/vegan

Postby Turmeric » Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:44 am

Enlightened2B wrote:Veganism/vegetarianism can be excellent short term solutions for people who are first getting off the SAD (Standard American Diet) and they can really help people detoxify in the short term. However, in the long term, more often than not, people wind up merging towards omnivorous diets to some capacity, because your body cannot access certain nutrients from veganism alone. Vitamin B12 is absolutely impossible to attain without animal products. There are a slew of other vitamins which can be attained from plant foods, but not in their proper form, which only can be attained from animal products. There are just so many poor myths that are thrown around about the WAPF that are simply wrong. The fact that this video would condone eating soy, just goes to show how completely ignorant they are.

I don't know what you mean by "short term", but I've been a happy healthy strong vegan for about 27 years now. With some proper measurements a vegan diet can contain all the essential nutrients a person needs.

As far as vitamin B12 is concerned :

In B12 deficiency: a silent epidemic with serious consequences it says :

B12 deficiency has been estimated to affect about 40% of people over 60 years of age

As you might know there are at most 5 percent vegetarians among people over 60 years of age. So among those 40% there must be a large portion of non-vegetarians. Therefore it seems that many people (whether meat-eater or not) must supplement vitamin B12 in order to get an adequate vitamin B12 intake.

If the conclusion is that many people with whatever diet need to take food supplements in order to stay healthy, than the necessity of taking food supplements can't be an obstacle for choosing to live a vegan lifestyle. And vitamin B12 can be produced in a vegan way by using only vitamin-B12-producing bacteria grown on a vegan medium.

Do I think a vegan lifestyle is natural for humans? No I don't. But since humans have evolved from the stone age humans have created other (and sometimes from a certain point of view better) ways to live their lives. We don't live in the stone age anymore wherein the average human age was much lower than it is now. I like to live a modern and conscious lifestyle. A new era has begun.
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Re: vegetarian/vegan

Postby Enlightened2B » Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:48 pm

And that's perfectly fine if you choose such. However, living a modern and conscious lifestyle has nothing to do with being vegan or being anything. It all has to do with your own level of presence/consciousness. I eat an omnivorous diet and have never felt better physically. I'm also feeling more and more aligned with my nature each day. Being a vegan because you think it's 'moral' or 'conscious' is just another game the ego plays. If you feel better being a vegan, then by all means, stick with it. But since we are on a spiritual forum, it's important to understand the subtle ways that ego slips through the back door in identifying with something new.

No I take no B supplements because I get it all from meat, bone broth and I get my vitamin A and D from animal fats, and cod liver oil.
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Re: vegetarian/vegan

Postby Turmeric » Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:16 pm

Enlightened2B wrote:living a modern and conscious lifestyle has nothing to do with being vegan or being anything.

It's not so much about being. It's about which road you like to take.

Enlightened2B wrote:I eat an omnivorous diet and have never felt better physically. I'm also feeling more and more aligned with my nature each day.

Whatever suits you.

Enlightened2B wrote:Being a vegan because you think it's 'moral' or 'conscious' is just another game the ego plays.

I know some games. I'm not priding myself for my choices. It's just how it is (or as a matter of speaking : where I stranded). I just wanted to set a possible misunderstanding about veganism straight.

Enlightened2B wrote:If you feel better being a vegan, then by all means, stick with it. But since we are on a spiritual forum, it's important to understand the subtle ways that ego slips through the back door in identifying with something new.

Indeed.

Enlightened2B wrote:No I take no B supplements because I get it all from meat, bone broth and I get my vitamin A and D from animal fats, and cod liver oil.

That may be fine for now as far as your health and your wellbeing is concerned.
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Re: vegetarian/vegan

Postby Trev » Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:47 pm

I find it strange that you think that being a vegan somehow seems to be a game the ego is playing and an identification that you must watch because a vegan recognises the current human tyranny over the the beings it deems acceptable to eat and they refuse to be a part of it . Yet to be a vegan is to think and act for the benefit of other beings ie) it shows a certain reduction in ego/ only looking at the world from the point of view of "self" and what I want even if its to the detriment of something else. By choosing to eat meat you are also taking a moral stand which implies ' My wishes/choices are more important than the suffering/death of the beings that are killed for the pleasure of my palate" This must be the case as you are fully aware of what must happen to put your piece of meat on the plate. Does this not seem more egoistic and self centred way to live??
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Re: vegetarian/vegan

Postby Enlightened2B » Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:22 pm

Trev wrote:I find it strange that you think that being a vegan somehow seems to be a game the ego is playing and an identification that you must watch because a vegan recognises the current human tyranny over the the beings it deems acceptable to eat and they refuse to be a part of it . Yet to be a vegan is to think and act for the benefit of other beings ie) it shows a certain reduction in ego/ only looking at the world from the point of view of "self" and what I want even if its to the detriment of something else. By choosing to eat meat you are also taking a moral stand which implies ' My wishes/choices are more important than the suffering/death of the beings that are killed for the pleasure of my palate" This must be the case as you are fully aware of what must happen to put your piece of meat on the plate. Does this not seem more egoistic and self centred way to live??


Ok Trev, you've expressed your beliefs numerous times. I'm glad you feel this way and I wish you the best with your lifestyle choice and I mean that. I have nothing left to say here pertaining to this discussion as it's clearly going no where.

Take care.
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Re: vegetarian/vegan

Postby Enlightened2B » Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:30 pm

Turmeric wrote:I guess he has very few animals to choose from then. It seems extremely difficult to me to use animals for food and not let them (or their relatives) suffer in one way or another by your using.


Actually, I have a TON of food options from local farms. Is it more expensive? Absolutely, but my health has improved to levels it hasn't in years. I have crohns disease which has been put in remission from eating the diet I do over the past year.

I guess Lions should not hunt in the African Plains because of the suffering they inflict on zebras and other prey they hunt. Granted, lions are carnivores, humans are omnivores. They are designed to eat meat and veggies. Here's a description of the ignorance of the myth that says otherwise:

Some vegetarian groups claim that since humans possess grinding teeth like herbivorous animals and longer intestines than carnivorous animals, this proves the human body is better suited for vegetarianism (122). This argument fails to note several human physiological features which clearly indicate a design for animal product consumption.

First and foremost is our stomach’s production of hydrochloric acid, something not found in herbivores. HCL activates protein-splitting enzymes. Further, the human pancreas manufactures a full range of digestive enzymes to handle a wide variety of foods, both animal and vegetable. Further, Dr. Walter Voegtlin’s in-depth comparison of the human digestive system with that of the dog, a carnivore, and a sheep, a herbivore, clearly shows that we are closer in anatomy to the carnivorous dog than the herbivorous sheep. (123)

While humans may have longer intestines than animal carnivores, they are not as long as herbivores; nor do we possess multiple stomachs like many herbivores, nor do we chew cud. Our physiology definitely indicates a mixed feeder, or an omnivore, much the same as our relatives, the mountain gorilla and chimpanzee who all have been observed eating small animals and, in some cases, other primates (124).Some vegetarian groups claim that since humans possess grinding teeth like herbivorous animals and longer intestines than carnivorous animals, this proves the human body is better suited for vegetarianism (122). This argument fails to note several human physiological features which clearly indicate a design for animal product consumption.


Arguing this is a case of ignorance and living in your own belief patterns. I'm not trying to knock people for their beliefs, but they are just incredibly unfounded myths that are being spewed in this thread because they haven't been approached by all of the facts. Science is needed to understand nutrition and the human body. If you eat vegetarian because it makes your body feel good, GREAT, do it. But, if you're eating because you think it's inflicting 'suffering', then you simply do not understand the human body and what it is designed for. You COULD be limiting your body's nutrients by eating a diet that does not fit your personal metabolism because of your own belief system. Everyone's bodies are unique. There is no one size fit all diet. Therefore, one should be eating to gain the most nourishing value from the food as opposed to ideological beliefs.
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Re: vegetarian/vegan

Postby Enlightened2B » Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:35 pm

And for those arguing against it being spiritual, you should really read this:

Myth #14: Eating meat or animal products is less “spiritual” than eating only plant foods.

It is often claimed that those who eat meat or animal products are somehow less “spiritually evolved” than those who do not. Though this is not a nutritional or academic issue, those who do include animal products in their diet are often made to feel inferior in some way. This issue, therefore, is worth addressing.

Several world religions place no restrictions on animal consumption; and nor did their founders. The Jews eat lamb at their most holy festival, the Passover. Muslims also celebrate Ramadan with lamb before entering into their fast. Jesus Christ, like other Jews, partook of meat at the Last Supper (according to the canonical Gospels). It is true that some forms of Buddhism do place strictures on meat consumption, but dairy products are always allowed. Similar tenets are found in Hinduism. As part of the Samhain celebration, Celtic pagans would slaughter the weaker animals of the herds and cure their meat for the oncoming winter. It is not true, therefore, that eating animal foods is always connected with “spiritual inferiority”.

Nevertheless, it is often claimed that, since eating meat involves the taking of a life, it is somehow tantamount to murder. Leaving aside the religious philosophies that often permeate this issue, what appears to be at hand is a misunderstanding of the life force and how it works. Modern peoples (vegetarian and non-vegetarian) have lost touch with what it takes to survive in our world–something native peoples never lose sight of. We do not necessarily hunt or clean our meats: we purchase steaks and chops at the supermarket. We do not necessarily toil in rice paddies: we buy bags of brown rice; and so forth, and so on.

When Native Americans killed a game animal for food, they would routinely offer a prayer of thanks to the animal’s spirit for giving its life so that they could live. In our world, life feeds off life. Destruction is always balanced with generation. This is a good thing: unchecked, the life force becomes cancerous. If animal food consumption is viewed in this manner, it is hardly murder, but sacrifice. Modern peoples would do well to remember this.
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Re: vegetarian/vegan

Postby Enlightened2B » Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:37 pm

And finally, the crux of the issue here:

Myth #15: Eating animal foods is inhumane.

Without question, some commercially raised livestock live in deplorable conditions where sickness and suffering are common. In countries like Korea, food animals such as dogs are sometimes killed in horrific ways, e.g., beaten to death with a club. Our recommendations for animal foods consumption most definitely do not endorse such practices.

As noted in our discussion of myth #1, commercial farming of livestock results in an unhealthy food product, whether that product be meat, milk, butter, cream or eggs. Our ancestors did not consume such substandard foodstuffs, and neither should we.

It is possible to raise animals humanely. This is why organic, preferably Biodynamic, farming is to be encouraged: it is cleaner and more efficient, and produces healthier animals and foodstuffs from those animals. Each person should make every effort, then, to purchase organically raised livestock (and plant foods). Not only does this better support our bodies, as organic foods are more nutrient-dense (131) and are free from hormone and pesticide residues, but this also supports smaller farms and is therefore better for the economy (132).

Nevertheless, many people have philosophical problems with eating animal flesh, and these sentiments must be respected. Dairy products and eggs, though, are not the result of an animal’s death and are fine alternatives for these people.

It should also not be forgotten that agriculture, which involves both the clearance of land to plant crops and the protection and maintenance of those crops, results in many animal deaths (133). The belief, therefore, that “becoming vegetarians” will somehow spare animals from dying is one with no foundation in fact.


I hope these postings I have made end the debate here once and for all.
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Re: vegetarian/vegan

Postby KathleenBrugger » Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:49 pm

I made vegetarian pizza this weekend and while I was kneading the dough thought about this thread. The dough was filled with yeast organisms, growing and multiplying like crazy--until I put the pizza in the oven and killed them all. Do you know how many thousands, maybe millions, of yeast that I killed? Are they unimportant because they are microscopic? Are we to be like the Jains in India who wear masks so they don't inadvertently suck in an insect and kill it, and who won't eat honey because its stealing from bees?

I admire your desire to live without harming others, Trev. I think we all need to find our own way to do that. Something I haven't seen mentioned in this thread so far (maybe missed it) is appropriate consumption. We can lessen our harm just by stopping being gluttons. Most people in my country (the US), including myself, eat far more than we need.
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Re: vegetarian/vegan

Postby Turmeric » Tue Jul 08, 2014 10:08 pm

Trev wrote:I find it strange that you think that being a vegan somehow seems to be a game the ego is playing and an identification that you must watch

I guess it's certainly possible for a vegan to put himself (or herself) on a throne for being one, whatever wellmeant intentions may come with choosing to live a vegan lifestye. In that sense "being obsessed by ones vegan status" can be a game the ego is playing.

Trev wrote:By choosing to eat meat you are also taking a moral stand which implies ' My wishes/choices are more important than the suffering/death of the beings that are killed for the pleasure of my palate" This must be the case as you are fully aware of what must happen to put your piece of meat on the plate. Does this not seem more egoistic and self centred way to live??

Why not ask some meat eater about his (or her) motivations for eating meat first before speculating about his (or her) motivations for eating meat?
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Re: vegetarian/vegan

Postby Enlightened2B » Tue Jul 08, 2014 10:23 pm

Just to post this one last time and it goes exactly in line with Kathleen's post above and really gets to the point. Please see the bolded part of this article. It's the misinterpreted value of what our life really is. It's the misinterpreted notion that bacteria dying in millions in your body everytime you consume a drop of alcohol or sugar, the living organisms that die each day from agriculture alone is perfectly ok, but an animal dying is blasphemy. How do you know what the suffering is for a smaller organism such as a bacteria or yeast? You don't know, but you assume that vegetarian/vegan is a moral way to go, but eating meat is not. It's pure ignorance and hypocrisy. Read again:

Myth #14: Eating meat or animal products is less “spiritual” than eating only plant foods.

It is often claimed that those who eat meat or animal products are somehow less “spiritually evolved” than those who do not. Though this is not a nutritional or academic issue, those who do include animal products in their diet are often made to feel inferior in some way. This issue, therefore, is worth addressing.

Several world religions place no restrictions on animal consumption; and nor did their founders. The Jews eat lamb at their most holy festival, the Passover. Muslims also celebrate Ramadan with lamb before entering into their fast. Jesus Christ, like other Jews, partook of meat at the Last Supper (according to the canonical Gospels). It is true that some forms of Buddhism do place strictures on meat consumption, but dairy products are always allowed. Similar tenets are found in Hinduism. As part of the Samhain celebration, Celtic pagans would slaughter the weaker animals of the herds and cure their meat for the oncoming winter. It is not true, therefore, that eating animal foods is always connected with “spiritual inferiority”.

Nevertheless, it is often claimed that, since eating meat involves the taking of a life, it is somehow tantamount to murder. Leaving aside the religious philosophies that often permeate this issue, what appears to be at hand is a misunderstanding of the life force and how it works. Modern peoples (vegetarian and non-vegetarian) have lost touch with what it takes to survive in our world–something native peoples never lose sight of. We do not necessarily hunt or clean our meats: we purchase steaks and chops at the supermarket. We do not necessarily toil in rice paddies: we buy bags of brown rice; and so forth, and so on.

When Native Americans killed a game animal for food, they would routinely offer a prayer of thanks to the animal’s spirit for giving its life so that they could live. In our world, life feeds off life. Destruction is always balanced with generation. This is a good thing: unchecked, the life force becomes cancerous. If animal food consumption is viewed in this manner, it is hardly murder, but sacrifice. Modern peoples would do well to remember this.
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