vegetarian/vegan

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Re: vegetarian/vegan

Postby Enlightened2B » Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:47 pm

Turmeric wrote:As far as vitamin B12 is concerned :

In B12 deficiency: a silent epidemic with serious consequences it says :

B12 deficiency has been estimated to affect about 40% of people over 60 years of age

As you might know there are at most 5 percent vegetarians among people over 60 years of age. So among those 40% there must be a large portion of non-vegetarians. Therefore it seems that many people (whether meat-eater or not) must supplement vitamin B12 in order to get an adequate vitamin B12 intake.


This is an incredibly flawed study because most of these people in the study are eating processed meats or not eating meat at all and guess what? You don't get the proper nutrients from processed meats that are filled antibiotics and hormones. These are the typical incredibly misguided studies that conventional dietary nonsense and vegan propaganda promote, but they fail to take into account the source of food that the people in the study consume which completely changes everything.

Is it regular conventional meat that is largely lacking in B12 and other vital nutrients.....or is it pasture raised, organic meat that is LOADED with B12. That's the reason the studies turn out the way they do. If you have an understanding even on a basic level of nutrition and dietary knowledge pertaining to food and the human body, this stuff would not get published, but it DOES get published by misguided sources, AND those with agendas..... largely associated with drug companies who promote diets with emphasis on low fats to promote their own drugs. You have to do your own research with believing anything and everything you read when it comes to diet and food.

Here's a link that shows why B12 deficiency is not associated with eating 'properly sourced meats" which the study again you posted above, completely fails to take into account.

Myth #2: Vitamin B12 can be obtained from plant sources.

Of all the myths, this is perhaps the most dangerous. While lacto and lacto-ovo vegetarians have sources of vitamin B12 in their diets (from dairy products and eggs), vegans (total vegetarians) do not. Vegans who do not supplement their diet with vitamin B12 will eventually get anemia (a fatal condition) as well as severe nervous and digestive system damage; most, if not all, vegans have impaired B12 metabolism and every study of vegan groups has demonstrated low vitamin B12 concentrations in the majority of individuals (11). Several studies have been done documenting B12 deficiencies in vegan children, often with dire consequences (12). Additionally, claims are made in vegan and vegetarian literature that B12 is present in certain algae, tempeh (a fermented soy product) and Brewer’s yeast. All of them are false as vitamin B12 is only found in animal foods. Brewer’s and nutritional yeasts do not contain B12 naturally; they are always fortified from an outside source.

There is not real B12 in plant sources but B12 analogues–they are similar to true B12, but not exactly the same and because of this they are not bioavailable (13). It should be noted here that these B12 analogues can impair absorption of true vitamin B12 in the body due to competitive absorption, placing vegans and vegetarians who consume lots of soy, algae, and yeast at a greater risk for a deficiency (14).

Some vegetarian authorities claim that B12 is produced by certain fermenting bacteria in the lower intestines. This may be true, but it is in a form unusable by the body. B12 requires intrinsic factor from the stomach for proper absorption in the ileum. Since the bacterial product does not have intrinsic factor bound to it, it cannot be absorbed (15).

It is true that Hindu vegans living in certain parts of India do not suffer from vitamin B12 deficiency. This has led some to conclude that plant foods do provide this vitamin. This conclusion, however, is erroneous as many small insects, their feces, eggs, larvae and/or residue, are left on the plant foods these people consume, due to non-use of pesticides and inefficient cleaning methods. This is how these people obtain their vitamin B12. This contention is borne out by the fact that when vegan Indian Hindus later migrated to England, they came down with megaloblastic anaemia within a few years. In England, the food supply is cleaner, and insect residues are completely removed from plant foods (16).

The only reliable and absorbable sources of vitamin B12 are animal products, especially organ meats and eggs (17). Though present in lesser amounts than meat and eggs, dairy products do contain B12. Vegans, therefore, should consider adding dairy products into their diets. If dairy cannot be tolerated, eggs, preferably from free-run hens, are a virtual necessity.

That vitamin B12 can only be obtained from animal foods is one of the strongest arguments against veganism being a “natural” way of human eating. Today, vegans can avoid anemia by taking supplemental vitamins or fortified foods. If those same people had lived just a few decades ago, when these products were unavailable, they would have died.
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Re: vegetarian/vegan

Postby Turmeric » Wed Jul 09, 2014 12:28 am

Enlightened2B wrote:there are just incredibly unfounded myths that are being spewed

I guess it's always good to debunk unfounded myths. But being an omnivore doesn't mean it's unhealthy to stick to a vegan diet. Being able to eat all kinds of food doesn't necessarily mean one must eat all kinds of food.

Enlightened2B wrote:Science is needed to understand nutrition and the human body.

Indeed. And in this field there's still a lot open for discovering.

Enlightened2B wrote:if you're eating because you think it's inflicting 'suffering', then you simply do not understand the human body and what it is designed for.

Does someone who's not eating because he (or her) thinks it's inflicting 'suffering' understands the human body and what it is designed for?

Enlightened2B wrote:You COULD be limiting your body's nutrients by eating a diet that does not fit your personal metabolism because of your own belief system.

That's both possible with a vegan diet and a non-vegan diet.

Enlightened2B wrote:Everyone's bodies are unique. There is no one size fit all diet.

I guess that's true.

Enlightened2B wrote:Therefore, one should be eating to gain the most nourishing value from the food

There may be several roads to accomplish that.

Enlightened2B wrote:as opposed to ideological beliefs.

With an ideological belief one cannot determine what's healthy for a human. But that doesn't mean it's impossibe for some healthy diet to fit into some ideological belief.

Enlightened2B wrote:And for those arguing against it being spiritual, you should really read this:
.....

Habits in some religions and/or societies are in my opinion not very strong arguments for meat eating not conflicting with spirituality. That said I do not argue meat eating always conflicts with spirituality. Among possible other aspects one has to look at least in what this meat eating is embedded.

Enlightened2B wrote:And finally, the crux of the issue here:


..... It is possible to raise animals humanely. This is why organic, preferably Biodynamic, farming is to be encouraged: it is cleaner and more efficient, and produces healthier animals and foodstuffs from those animals. .....

Organic farming (not necessarily Biodynamic) has some advantages. It may however be a myth organic farmers treat their animals humanely (although perhaps a little more humanely).

..... Dairy products and eggs, though, are not the result of an animal’s death and are fine alternatives .....

To use animals as production-machines and slaughter them when one cannot use them (enough) for ones production may give another picture.

..... It should also not be forgotten that agriculture, which involves both the clearance of land to plant crops and the protection and maintenance of those crops, results in many animal deaths .....

That's unavoidable indeed. Therefore veganism is defined as a strive for reducing the use of animals as much as is reasonable an practically possible.

..... The belief, therefore, that “becoming vegetarians” will somehow spare animals from dying is one with no foundation in fact .....

It's not mentioned here that using more livestock implies the production of even more plant crops. So this conclusion turns out to be wrong. Another aspect is a possible lesser degree of suffering among (generally speaking) less complex animals. For this aspect I refer to Pain in animals.

Enlightened2B wrote:I hope these postings I have made end the debate here once and for all.

Why are you so eager to see the debate ended?

Enlightened2B wrote:It's the misinterpreted notion that bacteria dying in millions in your body everytime you consume a drop of alcohol or sugar,

All vegans I know are well aware of the destruction of bacteria (and other small organisms) inside human bodies and on human bodies.

Enlightened2B wrote:the living organisms that die each day from agriculture alone is perfectly ok,

Only because one has to look at what is practically achievable. And as I already mentioned, more livestock also means more destruction of these organisms.

Enlightened2B wrote:but an animal dying is blasphemy.

Apart from "blasphemy" not being a proper term in this respect to my opinion, it depends on in what such a death is embedded.

Enlightened2B wrote:How do you know what the suffering is for a smaller organism such as a bacteria or yeast? You don't know,

There have been done some studies in this field. Just look at Pain in animals.

Enlightened2B wrote:but you assume that vegetarian/vegan is a moral way to go, but eating meat is not. It's pure ignorance and hypocrisy.

There are some undeniable moral aspects about eating meat. That said I do not argue a meat eater must necessarily be less spiritual than a vegan.

A vegan lifestyle is not only about the suffering of animals but also about the environmental impact caused by the consumption of animal food. All the current livestock animals on Earth together are estimated to weigh 7 times as much as the total current weight of humanity. It's something to think about.
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Re: vegetarian/vegan

Postby Enlightened2B » Wed Jul 09, 2014 1:04 am

Turmeric wrote:I guess it's always good to debunk unfounded myths. But being an omnivore doesn't mean it's unhealthy to stick to a vegan diet. Being able to eat all kinds of food doesn't necessarily mean one must eat all kinds of food.


totally agree here.

Does someone who's not eating because he (or her) thinks it's inflicting 'suffering' understands the human body and what it is designed for?


Depends on the person, I'd say the answer for most people is, a bit astounding....NO hence the standard american diet and the disease crisis around the world from poor eating habits especially in the USA. I was one of those people until about 8 or 9 years ago where I HAD to focus on diet and nutrition in order to essentially save my life.

Enlightened2B wrote:You COULD be limiting your body's nutrients by eating a diet that does not fit your personal metabolism because of your own belief system.

That's both possible with a vegan diet and a non-vegan diet.


Once again, I agree very much so. Understand, I'm not trying to debunk veganism itself, but merely the myths that are being spewed about eating meat (especially in this thread)

Enlightened2B wrote:Therefore, one should be eating to gain the most nourishing value from the food

There may be several roads to accomplish that.


Of course, what is right for one person is not necessarily right for another.

Enlightened2B wrote:And for those arguing against it being spiritual, you should really read this:
.....

Habits in some religions and/or societies are in my opinion not very strong arguments for meat eating not conflicting with spirituality. That said I do not argue meat eating always conflicts with spirituality. Among possible other aspects one has to look at least in what this meat eating is embedded.


here's my take. I think if we're gorging on bad, factory farmed meat with no consciousness of what we are doing, then we are doing a disservice to not only our own bodies, but to life itself. Appreciating the food you eat regardless of whether it's a cow or if it's a flower or a bacteria (fermented foods) goes a long way to appreciating life itself.

Enlightened2B wrote:And finally, the crux of the issue here:


..... It is possible to raise animals humanely. This is why organic, preferably Biodynamic, farming is to be encouraged: it is cleaner and more efficient, and produces healthier animals and foodstuffs from those animals. .....

Organic farming (not necessarily Biodynamic) has some advantages. It may however be a myth organic farmers treat their animals humanely (although perhaps a little more humanely).


It can be a myth of course in certain places, but if you actually visit the farms yourself, you can see first hand how these animals are treated. I know people who live on farms around the country and how they treat their animals. Of course, this isn't the case for all farms, but that's why it's so important to know where your food is coming from for multiple reasons.

.....
To use animals as production-machines and slaughter them when one cannot use them (enough) for ones production may give another picture.


That's your own slant on it. How does a lion kill a zebra in the wild? How does a frog kill a fly? It's the same process of life and death to sustain life.

..
That's unavoidable indeed. Therefore veganism is defined as a strive for reducing the use of animals as much as is reasonable an practically possible.


here's a myth buster for that which might change your outlook:

Myth #1: Meat consumption contributes to famine and depletes the Earth’s natural resources.

Some vegetarians have claimed that livestock require pasturage that could be used to farm grains to feed starving people in Third World countries. It is also claimed that feeding animals contributes to world hunger because livestock are eating foods that could go to feed humans. The solution to world hunger, therefore, is for people to become vegetarians. These arguments are illogical and simplistic.

The first argument ignores the fact that about 2/3 of our Earth’s dry land is unsuitable for farming. It is primarily the open range, desert and mountainous areas that provide food to grazing animals and that land is currently being put to good use (1).

The second argument is faulty as well because it ignores the vital contributions that livestock animals make to humanity’s well-being. It is also misleading to think that the foods grown and given to feed livestock could be diverted to feed humans:

Agricultural animals have always made a major contribution to the welfare of human societies by providing food, shelter, fuel, fertilizer and other products and services. They are a renewable resource, and utilize another renewable resource, plants, to produce these products and services. In addition, the manure produced by the animals helps improve soil fertility and, thus, aids the plants. In some developing countries the manure cannot be utilized as a fertilizer but is dried as a source of fuel.

There are many who feel that because the world population is growing at a faster rate than is the food supply, we are becoming less and less able to afford animal foods because feeding plant products to animals is an inefficient use of potential human food. It is true that it is more efficient for humans to eat plant products directly rather than to allow animals to convert them to human food. At best, animals only produce one pound or less of human food for each three pounds of plants eaten. However, this inefficiency only applies to those plants and plant products that the human can utilize. The fact is that over two-thirds of the feed fed to animals consists of substances that are either undesirable or completely unsuited for human food. Thus, by their ability to convert inedible plant materials to human food, animals not only do not compete with the human rather they aid greatly in improving both the quantity and the quality of the diets of human societies. (2)

Furthermore, at the present time, there is more than enough food grown in the world to feed all people on the planet. The problem is widespread poverty making it impossible for the starving poor to afford it. In a comprehensive report, the Population Reference Bureau attributed the world hunger problem to poverty, not meat-eating (3). It also did not consider mass vegetarianism to be a solution for world hunger.

What would actually happen, however, if animal husbandry were abandoned in favor of mass agriculture, brought about by humanity turning towards vegetarianism?

If a large number of people switched to vegetarianism, the demand for meat in the United States and Europe would fall, the supply of grain would dramatically increase, but the buying power of poor [starving] people in Africa and Asia wouldn’t change at all.

The result would be very predictable — there would be a mass exodus from farming. Whereas today the total amount of grains produced could feed 10 billion people, the total amount of grain grown in this post-meat world would likely fall back to about 7 or 8 billion. The trend of farmers selling their land to developers and others would accelerate quickly. (4)

In other words, there would be less food available for the world to eat. Furthermore, the monoculture of grains and legumes, which is what would happen if animal husbandry were abandoned and the world relied exclusively on plant foods for its food, would rapidly deplete the soil and require the heavy use of artificial fertilizers, one ton of which requires ten tons of crude oil to produce (5).

As far as the impact to our environment, a closer look reveals the great damage that exclusive and mass farming would do. British organic dairy farmer and researcher Mark Purdey wisely points out that if “veganic agricultural systems were to gain a foothold on the soil, then agrochemical use, soil erosion, cash cropping, prairie-scapes and ill health would escalate.” (6)

Neanderthin author Ray Audette concurs with this view:

Since ancient times, the most destructive factor in the degradation of the environment has been monoculture agriculture. The production of wheat in ancient Sumeria transformed once-fertile plains into salt flats that remain sterile 5,000 years later. As well as depleting both the soil and water sources, monoculture agriculture also produces environmental damage by altering the delicate balance of natural ecosystems. World rice production in 1993, for instance, caused 155 million cases of malaria by providing breeding grounds for mosquitoes in the paddies. Human contact with ducks in the same rice paddies resulted in 500 million cases of influenza during the same year.(7)

There is little doubt, though, that commercial farming methods, whether of plants or animals produce harm to the environment. With the heavy use of agrochemicals, pesticides, artificial fertilizers, hormones, steroids, and antibiotics common in modern agriculture, a better way of integrating animal husbandry with agriculture needs to be found. A possible solution might be a return to “mixed farming,” described below.

The educated consumer and the enlightened farmer together can bring about a return of the mixed farm, where cultivation of fruits, vegetables and grains is combined with the raising of livestock and fowl in a manner that is efficient, economical and environmentally friendly. For example, chickens running free in garden areas eat insect pests, while providing high-quality eggs; sheep grazing in orchards obviate the need for herbicides; and cows grazing in woodlands and other marginal areas provide rich, pure milk, making these lands economically viable for the farmer. It is not animal cultivation that leads to hunger and famine, but unwise agricultural practices and monopolistic distribution systems. (8)

The “mixed farm” is also healthier for the soil, which will yield more crops if managed according to traditional guidelines. Mark Purdey has accurately pointed out that a crop field on a mixed farm will yield up to five harvests a year, while a “mono-cropped” one will only yield one or two (9). Which farm is producing more food for the world’s peoples? Purdey well sums up the ecological horrors of “battery farming” and points to future solutions by saying:

Our agricultural establishments could do very well to outlaw the business-besotted farmers running intensive livestock units, battery systems and beef-burger bureaucracies; with all their wastages, deplorable cruelty, anti-ozone slurry systems; drug/chemical induced immunotoxicity resulting in B.S.E. [see myth # 13] and salmonella, rain forest eradication, etc. Our future direction must strike the happy, healthy medium of mixed farms, resurrecting the old traditional extensive system as a basic framework, then bolstering up productivity to present day demands by incorporating a more updated application of biological science into farming systems. (10)

It does not appear, then, that livestock farming, when properly practiced, damages the environment. Nor does it appear that world vegetarianism or exclusively relying on agriculture to supply the world with food are feasible or ecologically wise ideas.


Enlightened2B wrote:I hope these postings I have made end the debate here once and for all.

Why are you so eager to see the debate ended?


Because there IS no debate other than the moral debates in your mind. Why do you want to continue debating something which only proves an act of the ego? I'm trying to debunk bad dietary advice because I'm very knowledgeable about it. Which diet is healthier? Simple. If you eat an extremely clean organic based vegan diet, that could be healthy, but NOT as healthy as compared to an extremely clean organic, pastured raised omnivorous diet with organic produce and healthy fats and fermented foods, there is not even a QUESTION which diet is healthier. That's not a knock against the vegan diet. It's just simple understanding that you are getting a WIDER range of nutrients and vitamins by eating animals products, animal fats, bone broths, and fermented foods than those who are NOT eating these foods by restricting their diets. Understand how your GI tract works and you'll have a very different outlook on food.

You've turned it into a moral debate, but I don't think you've really grasped Eckhart's message. By turning it into a moral debate (which food is not supposed to be), you've identified with a position of the mind by creating an ideological view on food. Food is supposed to be nourishing for the body. Not to mention that Eckhart eats meat and so does the Dalai Lama.

All vegans I know are well aware of the destruction of bacteria (and other small organisms) inside human bodies and on human bodies.


Good to know!

There have been done some studies in this field. Just look at Pain in animals.

You've completely missed the point. What about zebras who suffer at the hands of lions? Should we tell lions to stop eating meat? Just because an organism does not suffer, does that mean killing it is ok?

A vegan lifestyle is not only about the suffering of animals but also about the environmental impact caused by the consumption of animal food. All the current livestock animals on Earth together are estimated to weigh 7 times as much as the total current weight of humanity. It's something to think about.


Once again Tum, read the link I attached to this post. What you're posting is incredibly wrong.
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Re: vegetarian/vegan

Postby Turmeric » Wed Jul 09, 2014 2:06 am

Enlightened2B, I will come back to you and comment on your latter posts in this thread. I first like to finish some other business. It may take a few days.
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Re: vegetarian/vegan

Postby Enlightened2B » Wed Jul 09, 2014 2:41 am

Folks, this is my last post in this thread because I don't wish to debate this any further. It's a non issue for me and only becomes one when our minds make it an issue. I have no dog in this race other than to get people to look into food as a nourishing aspect of medicine as opposed utilizing food as a means to express ideological beliefs which (not to mention) is completely missing the point of spiritual teachings such as Eckhart Tolle. If that's what you choose to do, then so be it. I can't force people to change their outlook. But, as someone who suffered severe symptoms of my body, due to GI distress over the years largely from stress, standard american diet, too many antibiotics when I was younger, etc, it took me so long to finally understand the nourishing factor of food for the physical body and I cringe when I read that people are eating a diet that could potentially be harmful, JUST because they think it's morally correct.

So, I'm going to leave you off with one piece to think about.

Can we live off of vegan diets? Yes, absolutely, we can, but we have to make sure the diet is completely organic and make sure you are not eating soy, and also make sure to take a lot of supplements to even things out, largely B vitamins, vitamin A, D, etc. Years ago, these supplements were not available. Now they are. Therefore, vegans can succeed in this world by sustaining this lifestyle.

On the other hand, if eating a diet consisting of pasture raised, organic animal products (meats, broths, and most of all fats), along with organic produce, healthy saturated fats like coconut oil, and cod liver oil for vitamin D, along with fermented foods, then you will be getting ALL of the nutrients possible in your diet alone and you will not have to supplement ANYTHING.

So, if one diet provides all of the nutrients available without having to supplement and the other diet does not, isn't that an automatic sign that one of those diets is more natural? Therefore, how can that diet that provides EVERY nutrient and vitamin to your body be 'not moral' when our bodies were clearly designed to eat this way? How do we know we were designed to eat this way? Because we are omnivores. Just like Cats are carnivores who are designed to eat meat. We are designed to eat BOTH meats AND plants. Evidenced by the fact that one diet requires ZERO supplementation since we are already getting the full range of nutrients while the other diet requires supplements such as B12, Vitamin A, D, etc.

Here's a good piece which summarizes how vegans HAVE to supplement. I've already posted the piece on B12 supplementation and here's one on vitamin A and how vegans do not receive a viable source of Vitamin A, nor do they in Vitamin D, outside of sunlight.

Myth #4: The body’s needs for vitamin A can be entirely obtained from plant foods.

True vitamin A, or retinol and its associated esters, is only found in animal fats and organs like liver (27). Plants do contain beta-carotene, a substance that the body can convert into vitamin A if certain conditions are present (see below). Beta-carotene, however, is not vitamin A. It is typical for vegans and vegetarians (as well as most popular nutrition writers) to say that plant foods like carrots and spinach contain vitamin A and that beta-carotene is just as good as vitamin A. These things are not true even though beta-carotene is an important nutritional factor for humans.

The conversion from carotene to vitamin A in the intestines can only take place in the presence of bile salts. This means that fat must be eaten with the carotenes to stimulate bile secretion. Additionally, infants and people with hypothyroidism, gall bladder problems or diabetes (altogether, a significant portion of the population) either cannot make the conversion, or do so very poorly. Lastly, the body’s conversion from carotene to vitamin A is not very efficient: it takes roughly 6 units of carotene to make one unit of vitamin A. What this means is that a sweet potato (containing about 25,000 units of beta-carotene) will only convert into about 4,000 units of vitamin A (assuming you ate it with fat, are not diabetic, are not an infant, and do not have a thyroid or gall bladder problem) [28].

Relying on plant sources for vitamin A, then, is not a very wise idea. This provides yet another reason to include animal foods and fats in our diets. Butter and full-fat dairy foods, especially from pastured cows, are good vitamin A sources, as is cod liver oil. Vitamin A is all-important in our diets, for it enables the body to use proteins and minerals, insures proper vision, enhances the immune system, enables reproduction, and fights infections (29). As with vitamin D, Dr. Price found that the diets of healthy primitive peoples supplied substantial amounts of vitamin A, again emphasizing the great need humans have for this nutrient in maintaining optimal health now and for future generations.
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Re: vegetarian/vegan

Postby Trev » Sat Jul 12, 2014 6:23 pm

Folks just because someone has posted big chunks from a pet website doesn't mean that what is said on that website is the truth. I understand that big tobacco companies can point to 'scientific' studies which say that smoking tobacco is perfectly harmless and doesn't in any way lead to cancer despite all evidence to the contrary. What i'm saying is that anyone can cherry pick a website and hold it up as gospel truth when it fact it is very biased in favour of a particular outcome.

Of course this could happen with a vegan type website as well but i'm not going to post big chunks from my favourite sites but just to ask you to think independently and look at things that are right in front of your noses -- things that cannot be disputed to any open minded person. So briefly......

1) Meat eating causes massive suffering on an industrial scale for BILLIONS of sensitive, intelligent creatures. It is not possible for animals to be kept in factory farms before they are transported often very long distances to meet a violent end in a slaughter house without them being subjected to immense suffering. This is obvious and anyone who thinks about the subject for even a moment can see this is a fact that cannot be avoided.(if in any doubt at all please look at the undercover video footage of slaughterhouses available via google eg) 'if slaughterhouses had glass walls' -- not pleasant viewing as you would expect) The animals that are kept truly free range are in a tiny minority of the meat produced in the US and other parts of the world - and they still have to be processed through the inevitable brutality of a slaughterhouse so there is no such thing as cruelty free meat. In addition it would be impossible for this type of farming to produce the huge quantities of meat for the mass market as it would take up massive tracks of land. YET....

2) As I have pointed out in previous posts meat eating is a choice you are making. It is unnecessary for health. Again the obvious facts of millions of healthy vegans around the world is absolute proof of this fact. Many reputable experts in dietary organisations around the world agree with this obvious fact --- there can be no argument. This is most clearly demonstrated by the multitude of vegan athletes who are pushing their bodies to the absolute limits yet suffering no dietary deficiency and are in fact champions in their chosen fields. That is proof not theory.

So if meat eating necessitates a staggering amount of suffering and it is unnecessary the obvious and simple question is why continue to support and condone its practices when you do not need to?????

Just to answer a couple of other points that have been brought up ----

What about Micro-organisms ... a) common sense dictates that there is a world of difference in the capacity to suffer and experience pain between a single celled organism like a bacteria or fungi etc and a complex and intelligent animal like a pig but if we take the question seriously then there is massive difference in physiology ie) the micro-organism has no brain or developed nervous system in the way a pig does which is a prerequisite to experiencing suffering/pain.
b) we cannot live without killing micro organisms but we can certainly live without killing animals.
c) How many billions and billions of micro organisms do you think live in each slaughtered animal that die along with their host. Whichever way you look at it veganism causes less suffering and death. (Just in case the death of plants is raised - farm animals consume massive amounts of plant food to produce the meat so many more plants die in the production of meat than if we consume the plants directly)

Spirituality -- this was the original reason for this discussion. I believe that any development in a spirituality must automatically affect our actions towards others and the world around us. If we know that an certain action of ours either directly or indirectly causes others to suffer then it surely follows that we look at our choice and adjust our actions so a more benign effect is put forward. Im not interested what jews or muslims or christians deem acceptable to eat in their dogmas. Looking at the subject objectively with a free spirit gives a glaringly obvious answer.

It is natural for us to eat meat --- I find it very odd that an evolved human being would look to the actions of say a lion for its own morality. Lions have no choice in what they eat --it acts from instinct. We can reason and assess if there is another way to eat and live healthy lives. Just because we have eaten meat in the past is no reason we should continue to do it if its unnecessary -and it is!! We have always fought wars so does that mean we shouldn't try to eliminate that destructive behaviour - because it could also be deemed 'natural'

There are loads of great websites out there for you to investigate. Try 'forks before knives' the 'vegan fitness and bodybuilding' site, listen to melanie joy on youtube --just to get started.

Namaste
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Re: vegetarian/vegan

Postby EnterZenFromThere » Sat Jul 12, 2014 6:50 pm

*Jack's eyes sparkle as he observes from a distance. The sound of popcorn squeaking through his teeth slices through the tension like a hot knife through butter. Appropriate, as the popcorn is buttered...*

:twisted: 8) :lol:

Jack
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Re: vegetarian/vegan

Postby Enlightened2B » Tue Jul 15, 2014 6:48 pm

EnterZenFromThere wrote:*Jack's eyes sparkle as he observes from a distance. The sound of popcorn squeaking through his teeth slices through the tension like a hot knife through butter. Appropriate, as the popcorn is buttered...*

:twisted: 8) :lol:

Jack


You can lead a camel to water, but can't force it to drink. I can only give recommendations to people. There is no right or wrong here, only what works for your body and apparently dogmatism as evidenced by the post above has taken over as the premise of this thread. I find it rather amusing to the highest degree actually, that people 'think' they grasped the main message in Eckhart's teachings of this unconditional love that we all are at the core, and then they create posts about how there is a 'right way' to live and 'a wrong way' and those who don't follow are labeled and judged as evidenced by the posts in this thread. 'If you eat meat, you're immoral!' Hmm...sounds a lot like organized religion if you ask me and sounds a lot like everything that goes right against Eckhart's teachings. I chuckle at how silly it all is. I guess I'm not too spiritual. Oh well!
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Re: vegetarian/vegan

Postby Trev » Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:17 pm

As an extreme example --is it wrong to murder/rape/violently rob other people for individual pleasure or gain. I assume that you would yes "of course". Then is this not a judgement you are making?? Yes it is! Is it 'right' to be kind and loving and compassionate - I think so. Is it 'wrong' to be hateful and violent - I think we would agree that is not a skillful way to live that would reflect any spiritual insight. To not make a 'judgement' in relation to such acts would be a strange position to take.

So long as we are experiencing this dimension we will have to make choices on the best way to live.

To consider the well being of others should not to be denounced as being "judgemental" as though its a heinous crime. It is to try and live a skillful life based on what insights may arise in your heart and adjust our behaviour accordingly.

This includes extending to circle of compassion to include the other beings that we share this earth with.
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Re: vegetarian/vegan

Postby Enlightened2B » Tue Jul 15, 2014 11:02 pm

Trev, living a vegan life is, like you said, not judgmental at all. There is nothing judgmental about following a lifestyle. If you feel it's right for you as I've said numerous times in this thread, then you should do it. No one can tell you that it is wrong to eat or live a certain way. I know a lot of people who feel healthy living vegan lifestyles.

However, what you ARE being judgmental is, by indicting these people who DO choose to eat meat as you have done incessantly throughout this thread. It's a choice to eat meat as many people feel better doing it, which you just can't seem to understand, just like it's a choice to be vegan. You keep grouping everyone under one category, but you don't understand that everyone's bodies are different. We are all bio-chemically unique individuals. Veganism might work well for one person while animal products work better for another. Ultimately, our bodies were designed to incorporate it all. You fail to understand that there is no 'one size fits all diet' and that's why it's impossible to have an actual discussion here with you about nutrition because you don't understand nutrition and I'm not saying that to be offensive to you. When you understand metabolic typing, and you understand the human need for fat digestion and you understand how HCL and protein work in our bodies and you understand how our bodies produce a full a range of enzymes from the pancreas in order to digest ALL TYPES OF FOODS, then we can start to have a discussion, but until then, why not just let it go?

I have no problem with your vegan lifestyle, so why should you have a problem with me or anyone else eating meat?
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Re: vegetarian/vegan

Postby Enlightened2B » Tue Jul 15, 2014 11:32 pm

The most enlightening part of this thread for me is seeing how we can expand our awareness to incorporate a view outside of our belief system and trust me, it is not easy. I've gotten sucked into this debate and finally caught myself.

I have a lot of love for you Trev in your perspective as I've been there myself. We all think we have the answers to life until we expand our awareness, just a bit and realize there's so much more out there, than just our limiting belief structures. I hope I have not offended you in any of my posts. I only come across with love even though it seems like we are in a debate. :D

Everything I point to you as judgmental, goes the same for myself. How do I know what caused you to form these beliefs that you have about 'eating meat'? I don't know. That already expands my awareness into unconditional love instead of me making judgement about you, yourself. That's what enlightenment is to me. That's what realizing our innate nature is to me. Expanding our awareness to incorporate other perspectives means we are becoming one with the collective being (collective perspectives of all).

So, if you see someone eating a certain food one day that we might think is 'wrong' or 'weird', until we have the larger perspective of why that person is doing what they are doing, we can't really know. That's unconditional love/empathy.
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Re: vegetarian/vegan

Postby Onceler » Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:21 am

Nice post, Enlightened2B. I was thinking that there is probably a lot we all agree on and maybe we should start there. Like there's too many animals being raised and killed in factory settings....and everything that goes with that, the suffering of the animals, the overuse of antibiotics and growth hormones, etc. I heard something recently I find hard to believe, and maybe it's not true, that domestic animals contribute to half of all green house gases. There's too much plant food being diverted to raising meat when it could be used for people around the world.

I am happy and healthy using minimal animal products, less then 10% of my diet and rarely eat meat. We do have good resources and nutritional guidance in being healthy without animal products. We live in one of the most bountiful eras, with a rich supply of diverse fruits and vegetables. It's really amazing. Let's be grateful!
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Re: vegetarian/vegan

Postby dijmart » Wed Jul 16, 2014 4:08 am

Enlightened2B wrote:The most enlightening part of this thread for me is seeing how we can expand our awareness to incorporate a view outside of our belief system and trust me, it is not easy. I've gotten sucked into this debate and finally caught myself.


Ahh, the catching yourself is glorious! Been there and know the feeling. I'll probably be there again and it's okay. Now instead of diet or inhumanity/humanity of animals you can see the real lesson underneath the discussion.

As far as eating meat..I was raised eating meat and still eat meat, but that doesn't mean that won't change some day (don't know?), but for now, I don't have a problem with it as it seems to be part of the circle of life. However, the manner in which the animals are treated I have no control over, but perhaps some laws need to be changed in regard to that issue. Anyways, that's just a few thoughts, but I'm really not wanting a debate myself about it either.
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Re: vegetarian/vegan

Postby Enlightened2B » Wed Jul 16, 2014 5:31 am

Yeah, The only way a debate like this can really continue in my opinion is when both sides have something to prove or defend. A lot of people love to debate because it feels good to the ego, but I hate debating. Maybe why I hate politics. When you see the limiting belief structures that initiated the debate in the first place such as 'eating meat is immoral', you realize that there is always a reason why a belief is formed and I've been in the same position previously as the OP and in other areas of life and when you really just expand that view to put yourself in the other person's shoes, it just kills all motivation to debate further and everything falls into mere acceptance.

It goes the same when we judge people who are eating a certain food. We see someone eating meat and immediately, the thought comes over us that this person is disgusting and immoral and a murderer. If we later learn that eating meat is not what we thought it was when we demonized it and actually saved this person's life because of the incredible health benefits and because their individual body required it, we might have an incredibly different outlook and expanded awareness and widened perspective on the topic of 'eating meat' which can change our entire perspective on life. Goes the same for anything in life. Judgement usually only takes place from our own limited belief structures until we open up to allow that view to be expanded. Just like a materialist who is dead set on the notion that consciousness comes from the brain until an experience happens to him/her where his/her entire belief structure falls to the ground and entire world view is changed to accommodate this expanded perspective of Consciousness.
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Re: vegetarian/vegan

Postby Trev » Wed Jul 16, 2014 5:45 pm

Looking back through the posts in this thread I think its clear that its mostly been me and enlightened2b airing our views which I'm sure by now are pretty clear to everyone so rather than just keep going round in circles with him I will leave it at that and let others read through what has been posted and make their own minds up.

Enlightened2b's type of view are of the old order --part of the collective insanity that has been demonstrated up to this point in our history where might is right and the dominant group always try to find a justification for their oppression of those that are weaker than themselves(defending it even when the absurdity of their position is crystal clear). But my friends the human race is evolving evidenced in the fall of slavery and oppression of women which were also once deeply entrenched and socially acceptable within the society of their time. The same will be true of the oppression of other species. Future generations will look back with same sense of disgust and embarrassment at factory farms and slaughterhouses as we do when we see images of black people in chains.

What I would ask anyone whose mind isn't firmly closed is the next time you are about to eat a meal containing meat don't just view it as a food object the same as the potatoes and carrots alongside it -- consciously think what it once was and what it had to go through before it arrived on your plate. Then ask if you want to support and condone that when a definite alternative exists. Think for yourselves and be very very conscious of not just going along with something because its socially acceptable to do so --really think for yourselves and listen to your hearts -- a healthy and compassionate alternative exists.
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