Earthly pleasures, contradiction?

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Earthly pleasures, contradiction?

Postby Maringa » Tue Jul 01, 2014 10:55 am

Hello friends,

I've now read a couple of books, Carlos Castaneda (Shamanism, Sorcerers in anxient Mexico) and Ram Dass (Psychadelics, buddhism, india) and I was chocked about them talking about the SAME things. Totally different sources, totally coherent identical truths.

But, here's my question. I love Tolle because he says that it's ok to love all the earthly pleasures. It's ok to be fond of ones body, ones beauty, success, money, it's ok to "make it in this world" as long as we see the fleeting nature of it. I love a lot of earthly stuff, and I know Tolle loves his watches, and he loves art. He's not a vegetarian, he drinks wine and he doesn't dress up in a blanket or a sheet.

But: Ram Dass and other more hardcore teachings (Vipassana etc) doesn't approve of earthly success (as I see it) but why? Is there really a contradiciton?

Is it wrong to have fun in this world, and still be an awakend human being? Why are they against it?
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Re: Earthly pleasures, contradiction?

Postby Phil2 » Tue Jul 01, 2014 11:47 am

Maringa wrote:
But: Ram Dass and other more hardcore teachings (Vipassana etc) doesn't approve of earthly success (as I see it) but why? Is there really a contradiciton?

Is it wrong to have fun in this world, and still be an awakend human being? Why are they against it?


The problem does not come from possessions or pleasure ... the problem comes from our attachments to them ...

When you let come what comes, and go what goes, there is no problem ... only 'resistance' creates problems ... and resistance is a result of our erroneous identification with forms (ie. ego) ... which creates a feeling of incompleteness hence a need to accumulate and control all things ...
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
(Carl Jung)
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Re: Earthly pleasures, contradiction?

Postby slow ride » Tue Jul 01, 2014 2:55 pm

Such answers can not be obtained from strangers.
Such answers can not be obtained from people who have known you all your life.
Such answers can only be obtained from the One that is beyond life and time.
What does your heart tell you?
It is your experience.
It is your journey.
Be wary of those who, by human nature, scramble to turn experience into religion with boundaries and endpoints; they can't help themselves, they get excited and want to put the experience into a box they can look at from all angles and believe they fully grok.
Don't be drawn in to anybody's religion.
What does your heart tell you?
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Re: Earthly pleasures, contradiction?

Postby rachMiel » Tue Jul 01, 2014 3:24 pm

Phil2 wrote:The problem does not come from possessions or pleasure ... the problem comes from our attachments to them ...
slow ride wrote:What does your heart tell you?
It is your experience.
It is your journey.

Boom. BOOM!

Two great answers to Maringa's question. Thanks guys. :-)
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
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Re: Earthly pleasures, contradiction?

Postby Webwanderer » Tue Jul 01, 2014 8:23 pm

Maringa wrote:But, here's my question. I love Tolle because he says that it's ok to love all the earthly pleasures. It's ok to be fond of ones body, ones beauty, success, money, it's ok to "make it in this world" as long as we see the fleeting nature of it. I love a lot of earthly stuff, and I know Tolle loves his watches, and he loves art. He's not a vegetarian, he drinks wine and he doesn't dress up in a blanket or a sheet.

But: Ram Dass and other more hardcore teachings (Vipassana etc) doesn't approve of earthly success (as I see it) but why? Is there really a contradiciton?

Is it wrong to have fun in this world, and still be an awakend human being? Why are they against it?

Life in this human world is designed for experience. - all kinds of experience. Phil2 has it right that the problem is not what we have or want, but our attachment to it to the degree that it becomes a distraction from a clear understanding of the illusory nature of all physical form.

Some teachers seem to consider the problem of attachment so obstructive that they believe it better to chart a life course of asceticism. My sense is that this type of resistance is its own problem. For some it may be beneficial. For most it is not. The world is just not designed that way. Far better is it to find joy in a life of abundance and appreciation of all the fruits of human life without becoming attached to it.

What's best for you or any one person? Slow ride points the way. "What does your heart tell you?"

WW
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Re: Earthly pleasures, contradiction?

Postby Phil2 » Wed Jul 02, 2014 4:18 pm

Webwanderer wrote:Some teachers seem to consider the problem of attachment so obstructive that they believe it better to chart a life course of asceticism. My sense is that this type of resistance is its own problem. For some it may be beneficial. For most it is not. The world is just not designed that way. Far better is it to find joy in a life of abundance and appreciation of all the fruits of human life without becoming attached to it.



Excellent WW, totally sharing this with you ... this 'asceticism' is a form of 'resistance', and any resistance just feeds ego (moreover what you resist persists) ... letting life 'flow' freely, without attachment to what happens, is probably a more 'balanced' approach ... life is there to be enjoyed ... why throw the baby away with the bathwater ? ...

:)
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
(Carl Jung)
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Re: Earthly pleasures, contradiction?

Postby Maringa » Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:58 pm

Thank you for your replies, very insightful as always!

My heart tells me to embrace the world of things, embrace money, beauty etc because it is here NOW. This is the world NOW, and I'm lucky enough to have the possibility to interact with all this crazy stuff. I love it but I don't think I'm to attached to it, just enjoying :)
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Re: Earthly pleasures, contradiction?

Postby viking55803 » Sat Jul 05, 2014 10:08 pm

This discussion reminded me of an insight I had as youngster. When I was a child, I always took great care of my toys and did not like sharing. Then I remember realizing that it was my attachment to my precious objects that caused me pain - I must have been a little older, perhaps 12 or 13. I genuinely felt that certain objects possessed me more than I possessed them. When I felt that strongly, I began giving those things away to break the "spell." As a consequence, I have virtually nothing from my childhood but my memories. I must have been seriously possessed!

I'm still selfish person (I hate to lend things - I'd rather give them away) and I truly get upset about misplacing certain things, but there is not a single non-living thing - large or small - that would cause me grief if it vanished.
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