Where is morality?

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Where is morality?

Postby carlojuan77 » Wed May 13, 2015 9:44 am

Is there an absolute moral code that everyone must adhere to?

Having developed some degree of consciousness in me, I have noticed how religions and Churches have egoic structures still going on within each one of them: "My God is better than your god", or the many judgments and labeling the Bible for example has given to homosexuals, premarital sex, etc. Being that said, I don't subscribe to this theory of a moral code precariously held and bound only by rules, regulations and "fear of eternal damnation." As atheists usually say, "If you need rules,regulations and a God to be good, then you're not good at all." I somehow agree to this. I want to know where the natural instinct of good comes from. There's a Zen teaching that goes something like, "if you need and try to be good, you will never be. The good is just is."

For example, the Bible says that is is immoral to have premarital sex or promiscuous sexual relations. However, as a more conscious human being that I am right now, I see that my fear of not engaging in premarital sex or sleeping with different women comes from the Bible's consequence of punishment (as you may have guessed I am a Christian, though not entirely religious about it anymore) not from a deep natural instinct to do what's right or do what's good. Hence, I have somehow lost my idea of what is right or wrong now. In addition, I have seen that part of my suffering was also feeling guilty because I have committed something against a said rule. And since I have learned how to be more present and non-judgmental, I have learned to let go of this guilt and along with it the strict restrictions of religious laws.

Ironically, it has become an effect of being more non-judgmental and more present about things. Is this a normal occurrence for someone being more conscious ? Or am I missing something here?

Going back to a pertinent example, my opinion is that I don't see anything wrong with premarital sex. But the Bible and Christianity say otherwise. In fact, I don't fear anything at all, except for one, as of this moment and its quite scary actually. That is, I fear that the Power of the Now and the present moment can be abused. I can become a chronic liar, but since I know how to retreat to the present moment, I can always be at peace, erase guilt and end psychological time. Worse, one can become a socio or psychopath and access the Power of Now, feel at peace, and never care about the consequences of his or her actions. Are there really no rules in this world? Only those that are man or ego-made? If Hitler was an enlightened being before, during and after WWII and died a natural death, where would he be now?

Where does our source of morality comes from? Does it come from an exhortation of the beauties of after-life and the punishment of hell? How can I know the true source of Good that isn't dictated by rules, ethics and codes? How can I just BE good?
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Re: Where is morality?

Postby Fore » Thu May 14, 2015 12:09 pm

carlojuan77 wrote:Where does our source of morality comes from? Does it come from an exhortation of the beauties of after-life and the punishment of hell? How can I know the true source of Good that isn't dictated by rules, ethics and codes? How can I just BE good?


We wish to be peaceful and happy. We wish to come out of darkness and into the light.

By taking such actions as killing, stealing, telling lies, sexual misconduct and indulging in intoxicants, we are agitating the mind, this mind cannot see clearly, this mind cannot come out of these miseries, this mind is not peaceful and happy.

The first step in any spiritual practice is to calm the mind, by observing a set of morals the mind will naturally calm, and one may begin this practice of seeing clearly. At first one may follow these as training rules(guidelines) but as wisdom is gained living a moral life is not a forced requirement but a natural way of being. As one progresses in clarity ones moral behaviours will purify, you will become a saintly person, your desire for these impurities will be no more.

Some members of religious organisations practice and preach these morals in a ritualistic manner, with threats of hell to back their claims, this is ignorant behaviour as these people lack wisdom(direct experience). You have already awakened enough to see that you distrust and are not drawn to this type of teaching, keep searching you will come across something you agree with.
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Re: Where is morality?

Postby CaiHong » Fri May 15, 2015 1:05 am

Good post,
I liked Fore's answer and am experiencing what he pointed out. I am becoming a "good" person without having to impose rules on myself, most of the time I intuitively know what to do. I know when I have done the wrong thing it disturbs my peace.
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Re: Where is morality?

Postby carlojuan77 » Fri May 15, 2015 8:21 am

Fore wrote:By taking such actions as killing, stealing, telling lies, sexual misconduct and indulging in intoxicants, we are agitating the mind, this mind cannot see clearly, this mind cannot come out of these miseries, this mind is not peaceful and happy.

The first step in any spiritual practice is to calm the mind, by observing a set of morals the mind will naturally calm, and one may begin this practice of seeing clearly. At first one may follow these as training rules(guidelines) but as wisdom is gained living a moral life is not a forced requirement but a natural way of being. As one progresses in clarity ones moral behaviours will purify, you will become a saintly person, your desire for these impurities will be no more.

Some members of religious organisations practice and preach these morals in a ritualistic manner, with threats of hell to back their claims, this is ignorant behaviour as these people lack wisdom(direct experience). You have already awakened enough to see that you distrust and are not drawn to this type of teaching, keep searching you will come across something you agree with.


I often wonder how Buddhists also tend to abstain and live a life of asceticism despite not having a God or deity to punish or reprimand them. How did they arrive to such a wisdom where their natural propensity is just to be and do good?

Thanks for the helpful answer too Fore.
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Re: Where is morality?

Postby Fore » Fri May 22, 2015 12:51 am

carlojuan77 wrote: I often wonder how Buddhists also tend to abstain and live a life of asceticism despite not having a God or deity to punish or reprimand them.


I am not a Buddhist, but have noticed many Buddhist act and behave the same as most any other human being. They pray to statues of Buddha and give offerings to these statues, and they get very upset if someone acts inappropriately towards one of these statues, they also chant to deities in higher realms to bring them more peace and happiness. I do not subscribe to or condone these behaviours.


carlojuan77 wrote: How did they arrive to such a wisdom where their natural propensity is just to be and do good?

This is the path as taught by Buddha, Christ, Mohammad, and most religious founders. This is the path that Mr. Tolle is also teaching. One must learn to feel sensations at the level of mind where these reactions are taking place. One can then observe that when one begins to act in a way that is not harmonious they are immediately punished, they create misery for themselves. When one begins to experience this first hand, they naturally stop taking actions that lead to misery. They begin to act in a way that is in harmony with the laws of nature.

One has to learn to see things clearly.
Last edited by Fore on Sat May 23, 2015 1:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Where is morality?

Postby Onceler » Fri May 22, 2015 12:41 pm

You're kinda right, carlojaun, in that there is an unmooring from ones moral structure when we lose fear. We are somewhat destabilized from our usual mode of operating based on the fear of recrimination, guilt and shame. When these are gone, or reduced, we are looser in our actions and thoughts. I have experienced this and , to a certain extent, taken liberties I would not otherwise have done without significant guilt, etc. these are small lies, petty behaviors that are sub moral, but which could lead to other immoral behavior and abuse the rights of others in some way. It's a weird sensation, but I agree with Fore, we find a balance. Our natural intelligence and common sense kick in and we see the ramifications of our actions, not out of fear but concern for others. We can act in an ethical manner for the most part. It's a good topic and I would like to hear other responses.
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Re: Where is morality?

Postby carlojuan77 » Tue May 26, 2015 6:37 am

Onceler wrote:You're kinda right, carlojaun, in that there is an unmooring from ones moral structure when we lose fear. We are somewhat destabilized from our usual mode of operating based on the fear of recrimination, guilt and shame. When these are gone, or reduced, we are looser in our actions and thoughts.


Exactly Onceler! This is exacly what I feel. Fear is not existent anymore for me and paradoxically it is quite scary. This came as a result of accessing Being. I realized my true Nature, as Eckhart explains as "immortal and indestructible". I have found peace and have made peace with my horrific psychological mind-made past and have had a glimpse of Enlightenment. I have gained true forgiveness and true compassion because of accessing Being and the Now. I have learned that when people act angrily, greedily or violently, they are just acting out of the unconscious egoic mind. As Jesus said, "they know now what they do". Hence, I have loved more truly and there is no room for negativity in me anymore, no more trying to 'get even' or hold grudges. I feel at peace, happy and light.

Onceler wrote:I have experienced this and , to a certain extent, taken liberties I would not otherwise have done without significant guilt, etc. these are small lies, petty behaviors that are sub moral, but which could lead to other immoral behavior and abuse the rights of others in some way.


Since I have no more fear accessing and realizing my True Nature. I, too, have taken liberties and became more loose with my actions. For example, I say white lies and chat with women on Tinder even thought I have a girlfriend. lol. These small things get to me.

One more thing that concerns me is that if death is not a problem, since this body is really not our true form. Then does that make killing people bad? I have heard someone who was a Christian and after reading "The God Delusion" by Dawkins got his belief system so shakened that he concluded that the ONLY reason why people don't kill is because there are social consequences like going to jail. etc. He got so demoralized he killed himself. I refuse to believe that morality and being good is nothing but a set of rules and restrictions to govern us.

I would never have such temptations but they come with the territory of questioning everything once this moral structure governed by fear has been dismantled. It's such an eerie and unnerving feeling and it frankly is confusing me.

Onceler wrote:It's a weird sensation, but I agree with Fore, we find a balance. Our natural intelligence and common sense kick in and we see the ramifications of our actions, not out of fear but concern for others. We can act in an ethical manner for the most part. It's a good topic and I would like to hear other responses.


Good insight about "not out of fear but out of concern for others" This certainly feels like a small answer that is part of a larger whole. I want to know what that is. Let's get this topic going indeed
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Re: Where is morality?

Postby carlojuan77 » Tue May 26, 2015 6:42 am

Fore wrote:...One can then observe that when one begins to act in a way that is not harmonious they are immediately punished, they create misery for themselves. When one begins to experience this first hand, they naturally stop taking actions that lead to misery. They begin to act in a way that is in harmony with the laws of nature.

One has to learn to see things clearly.


What if we now how to access the Now and have mastered learning how to accept what is? Can a person have no remorse for his actions because he or she knows how to access the Now and hence dissolve emotions, thoughts and negativity that creep in caused by guilt, shame, etc?

Can the Now be used as a sort of escape?
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Re: Where is morality?

Postby Fore » Tue May 26, 2015 11:59 am

carlojuan77 wrote:What if we now how to access the Now and have mastered learning how to accept what is? Can a person have no remorse for his actions because he or she knows how to access the Now and hence dissolve emotions, thoughts and negativity that creep in caused by guilt, shame, etc?

If you are being presence, this is perfection, no action is taken that causes harm to another. You are speaking of the agitated mind, and the agitated mind is not seeing clearly.

carlojuan77 wrote:Can the Now be used as a sort of escape?

There are no locks or doors or guards, nothing to escape from.
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Re: Where is morality?

Postby carlojuan77 » Tue May 26, 2015 12:44 pm

Fore wrote:If you are being presence, this is perfection, no action is taken that causes harm to another. You are speaking of the agitated mind, and the agitated mind is not seeing clearly.


I can no longer see myself doing dreadful extreme actions against other people. But there are still matters that I have been more loose with such as lying, sexual misconduct (i.e. masturbation or porn) that I have not felt yet the urge to go against. I have no qualms 'repenting' these actions but I want it to come from a place of wanting to do it instead of fearing some sort of punishment. It could be said that I am waiting for a moment (which is in the future so maybe I am missing something) that would make me want to do this.

To further understand what I mean, Owen Cook is the CEO of RSD, Real Social Dynamics. He loves Eckhart Tolle and always cites his teachings. However, his business or community involves learning how to pick up women and having a lifestyle of debauchery, although he doesn't advocate drugs or alcohol. Basically, he uses "Presence" as an attraction tool to pick women up. He's really successful at it too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUNQ4Jfpj7o

Here is a video where he teaches that Presence is needed to attract women. Presence makes you non-needy and hence women pick up that vibe and they become attracted to you. He uses it so successfully that you can see live examples in this video! This is what I mean by abusing and using Presence. I have nothing against RSD or Owen Cook but I just can't see how being present or achieving this state of perfection, or holiness, can be mixed up with this kind of stuff.

Fore wrote:There are no locks or doors or guards, nothing to escape from.


Please elaborate more on this.

Thanks for all your insights Fore
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Re: Where is morality?

Postby Fore » Wed May 27, 2015 2:25 am

carlojuan77 wrote:
I can no longer see myself doing dreadful extreme actions against other people. But there are still matters that I have been more loose with such as lying, sexual misconduct (i.e. masturbation or porn) that I have not felt yet the urge to go against.

Can you not feel the tension created when lying? Sexual desire is one of the deepest impurities, it is one of the last roots to be severed.

carlojuan77 wrote:
I have no qualms 'repenting' these actions but I want it to come from a place of wanting to do it instead of fearing some sort of punishment. It could be said that I am waiting for a moment (which is in the future so maybe I am missing something) that would make me want to do this.

Repenting is the conscience revisiting these wounds, like lava being cooled when it comes in contact with environment. It crusts over creating a shell, when the shell is thick enough we don't pay much attention to this lava anymore but it is still in there burning. If we are within the field of wisdom we see this process, we see the immediate punishment for these actions.

carlojuan77 wrote:
Fore wrote:There are no locks or doors or guards, nothing to escape from.


Please elaborate more on this.

Eckhart gives an analogy about a hobo who has been sitting on a old crate for a long time without ever looking inside, when the hobo looks in the crate, he finds it is full of gold. Look inside and all the answers are within. There are no guards or locked doors, you just have to look.
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Re: Where is morality?

Postby carlojuan77 » Thu May 28, 2015 2:58 am

Fore wrote: There are no guards or locked doors, you just have to look.


I admit I am having a hard time looking into the gravity of my actions. Have I become numb? Why is sexual desire considered to be a deep impurity?
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Re: Where is morality?

Postby DavidB » Thu May 28, 2015 8:28 am

carlojuan77 wrote: Is there an absolute moral code that everyone must adhere to?

Where does our source of morality comes from? Does it come from an exhortation of the beauties of after-life and the punishment of hell? How can I know the true source of Good that isn't dictated by rules, ethics and codes? How can I just BE good?


No, there is no moral code.

Morality is those human characteristics/qualities/traits, most valued by any given society/culture. These are all entirely value judgements of course, characteristics/qualities/traits perceived as either desirable or undesirable, good or bad.

As an example, in our modern Western culture it has become unfortunately, quite popular to demonize 'discrimination' as an undesirable human characteristic, often mistakenly linked to racism and used interchangeably with prejudice. Where in reality, discrimination is a useful characteristic we all use every day which helps serve us to differentiate. Differentiation is a vital tool in navigating our world, which without we might find navigation very difficult or impossible. To demonize discrimination, by linking the virtue to something perceived as undesirable, such as racism for example, only serves to hinder and make impotent human potential.

Prejudice, quite rightly, is perceived negatively, as it is quite literally prejudgment, or forming an opinion before becoming aware of the relevant facts of a case. Interestingly, not unlike faith, which is quite literally belief without evidence.

From a Christian perspective, a virtue would be that human characteristic or quality most perceived to be Christ like in nature and Sin is the Christian term for vice. Jesus Christ (Yeshua) might be thought of as the collective manifestation of desirable characteristics/qualities/traits embodied in a single human being. He might be thought of as the one person embodying all of the most desirable virtues minus all of the undesirable vices, being more or less, the embodiment of moral perfection. Of course though, Jesus is an ancient fictional heroic character, much in the same way contemporary culture might invent a fictional heroic character, like ironman, superman, spiderman and wonderwoman etc.

23Everything is permissible, but not everything is helpful. Everything is permissible, but not everything builds up. 1 Corinthians 10:23

We might presume that consciousness has a type of momentum, evolving as it were, in the human form. Consciousness has a type of intention, to bring into the human form, the awareness of being. So we might assume, that there is a general tendency toward a particular direction of conscious evolution. We 'cannot' assume however that consciousness prefers one manifestation over another. There is no prejudice here, consciousness is perfectly content to manifest in any form, and does so continuously. We might assume though, that there might be beneficial behavior, that some behavior might tend toward conscious evolution, while other behavior might not. We ought to be cautious too though, not to presume that consciousness prefers one way or the other, as this is a human value judgement, not a characteristic of consciousness.

There is of course, absolutely no impetus to be anything at all. We might partake in conscious evolution, or we might not, there is no compulsion, nor preference, to do one or the other. This is what is meant by free will. We either evolve or we don't evolve, it doesn't really matter, no good, no bad, no judgment.

It might be good to know, that consciousness has all the time in the universe, a literal eternity to evolve. There is no urgency from the perspective of the eternal, no hurry, no rush, no anxiety. If conscious awareness doesn't evolve in the human form, no problem, it will evolve some place else. It's a big universe, with infinite possibilities. :D
“Wisdom is knowing I am nothing, Love is knowing I am everything, and between the two my life moves.” ― Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj
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Re: Where is morality?

Postby DavidB » Thu May 28, 2015 9:26 am

Sexual desire is one of the deepest impurities, it is one of the last roots to be severed.


No it isn't!

Sexual desire is perfectly natural, absolutely nothing wrong with it at all, it is a perfectly healthy characteristic of the human condition. And if you feel the need to masturbate, then masturbate, enjoy it and do it consciously. :D


“All negativity is caused by an accumulation of psychological time and denial of the present. Unease, anxiety, tension, stress, worry - all forms of fear - are caused by too much future, and not enough presence. Guilt, regret, resentment, grievances, sadness, bitterness, and all forms of nonforgiveness are caused by too much past, and not enough presence.” ― Eckhart Tolle, The Power of Now: A Guide to Spiritual Enlightenment
“Wisdom is knowing I am nothing, Love is knowing I am everything, and between the two my life moves.” ― Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj
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Re: Where is morality?

Postby Fore » Thu May 28, 2015 12:21 pm

DavidB wrote:
Sexual desire is one of the deepest impurities, it is one of the last roots to be severed.


No it isn't!

Sexual desire is perfectly natural, absolutely nothing wrong with it at all, it is a perfectly healthy characteristic of the human condition. And if you feel the need to masturbate, then masturbate, enjoy it and do it consciously. :D


Craving for form is a deep root. What is it about masturbation we crave, the sensation, the build up and release of sexual tensions. This is the habit pattern of mind to come out of. This is playing games with sensations and leads to future births future misery.

In one way this root craving for form is quite necessary for evolution, we have been evolving for billions of years to become this human form, which has the developed capacity to realize this true nature of being. Animals cannot develop insight, some are close but more development is required, humans can develop insight, and put an end to the cycle of rebirth. This is the practice, to see that when there is craving, there is no peace, there is misery.

I'm not suggesting we forcefully stop masturbating, or worry about this. When we practice and strengthen in awareness, we will see this for ourselves. This sexual tension is such an agitated state, when this is seen it is very easy to let go. With little awareness, this is not experienced at the subtle level required.
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