Where is morality?

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Re: Where is morality?

Postby Fore » Thu May 28, 2015 12:34 pm

carlojuan77 wrote:
I admit I am having a hard time looking into the gravity of my actions. Have I become numb?

Not numb, we just experience things at a grosser level a very apparent level, strengthen in awareness, this is like using a microscope to penetrate deeper.



carlojuan77 wrote:
Why is sexual desire considered to be a deep impurity?

Sexual desire is craving. Craving is not accepting this moment as it is, it is attempting to change or manipulate this moment. When this desire to masturbate arises can you simply observe this, as say we would with anger or boredom, or is this overpowering, are you swept up in the wave of desire? Can you feel this desire building in strength, the body becoming full of tensions, the mind full of craving? Can you simply observe this wave, let it smash into you, break apart and finally subside, without reacting to this.
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Re: Where is morality?

Postby DavidB » Thu May 28, 2015 2:38 pm

Sexual desire is craving. Craving is not accepting this moment as it is, it is attempting to change or manipulate this moment.


What manifest in this moment is sexual desire, craving manifest in this moment, a perfectly valid human biological need. Accepting this moment is accepting that sexual desire and sexual craving are manifest. Attempting to change and manipulate this moment is the attempt to deny what is manifest, which is sexual desire and craving.

When this desire to masturbate arises can you simply observe this, as say we would with anger or boredom, or is this overpowering, are you swept up in the wave of desire? Can you feel this desire building in strength, the body becoming full of tensions, the mind full of craving? Can you simply observe this wave, let it smash into you, break apart and finally subside, without reacting to this.


You appear to make sexual desire something to be avoided? Is there something inherently wrong with human sexuality? Actually never mind, I discovered the answer myself in the quote below.

This is the practice, to see that when there is craving, there is no peace, there is misery.


When there is craving, there is craving, when there is no craving, there is no craving. Being aware of both brings peace, not one over the other.
“Wisdom is knowing I am nothing, Love is knowing I am everything, and between the two my life moves.” ― Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj
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Re: Where is morality?

Postby Enlightened2B » Thu May 28, 2015 10:48 pm

Sexual addiction is far far far different than sexual desire.

To insinuate that sexual desire is something that is impure or a form of 'craving', is to essentially get rid of pro-creation. How do you pro-create? With sexual desire. 8)

If you want to make a baby, does that mean you are craving or addicted to sex?

No, it simply means that in order to ejaculate into a female to pro-create, you need some sort of.........sexual desire.

Therefore, whether one ejaculates into a female or ejaculates into their hand or ejaculates anywhere else, both can be approached from presence or not. Same thing with looking at pornography. It's is perfectly ok as they are both natural processes. It's only the human mind which once again, limits by judging (right and wrong). Any teaching that does this, is just another limited dogmatic structure filled with beliefs.

I say fuck the concept of impurity and do what feels right for you.

On the other hand, sexual addiction in any form, is quite a different story and can often be the result of unconsciousness. But, even then, it is what is.

It would do us well not to confuse addiction from desire because it's just plain silly to claim that sexual desire is impure, unless of course you want to wipe out the population of man kind or if you believe that babies come from the sky 8)

And if one chooses not to engage in any kind of sexual activity, that too is perfectly fine. Eckhart Tolle has a video on abstinence.
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Re: Where is morality?

Postby Fore » Thu May 28, 2015 11:36 pm

DavidB wrote:

a perfectly valid human biological need.


You are confused David, this is not a biological need, the body does not need sex to survive.


DavidB wrote:
Accepting this moment is accepting that sexual desire and sexual craving are manifest. Attempting to change and manipulate this moment is the attempt to deny what is manifest, which is sexual desire and craving.

Yes at this moment sexual desire has arisen, must I feed this craving? If anger arises, must I feed this anger? If boredom arises, must I feed this boredom? No, I can simply observe this mind full of craving, and see the changing nature of this, if I do not feed this desire, it weakens, looses its strength and passes away. If I feed this desire, as one without awareness of the arising and passing away of mind felt bodily sensations, it is like scratching a line in stone, this desire grows in strength and takes much time to pass away.

Because of our past conditioning, past lives if you will, we have developed into these incredible creatures that can become self aware. We have developed into these creatures because of craving, for some, there may be no more need to give rise to future births. They are simply unbinding the past conditioning and putting an end to desire.


DavidB wrote:
When there is craving, there is craving, when there is no craving, there is no craving. Being aware of both brings peace, not one over the other.

Apparently.
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Re: Where is morality?

Postby Fore » Thu May 28, 2015 11:46 pm

Enlightened2B wrote:Sexual addiction is far far far different than sexual desire.


No, it is not, it is the same, it just feels different at the apparent level. We are addicted to reacting towards these sensations.

Enlightened2B wrote:If you want to make a baby, does that mean you are craving or addicted to sex?

If you want you are craving.
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Re: Where is morality?

Postby Enlightened2B » Fri May 29, 2015 12:18 am

Enlightened2B wrote::Sexual addiction is far far far different than sexual desire.

Fore said: No, it is not, it is the same


In your own mind it is. That's perfectly fine if you'd like to hold that belief to yourself.

E2B: If you want to make a baby, does that mean you are craving or addicted to sex?

Fore said:If you want you are craving.


Then, please answer the question Fore, how do you expect to procreate without sexual desire? :lol:
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Re: Where is morality?

Postby Fore » Fri May 29, 2015 12:41 am

Enlightened2B wrote:
Then, please answer the question Fore, how do you expect to procreate without sexual desire? :lol:


Don't know what's so funny, it can't be done.

People are at different places evolutionarily, not everybody must procreate.
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Re: Where is morality?

Postby DavidB » Fri May 29, 2015 12:55 am

Fore wrote:You are confused David, this is not a biological need, the body does not need sex to survive.



Yeah, you've suggested that I'm confused before. I can assure you that I'm not confused, I know exactly what I'm saying. I suggest however, that you do not comprehend what I am saying.

No sexual desire + no sex = no bodies.

If my parents hadn't felt the strong urge to jump into the bed and have gratifying sex, then this body wouldn't be here now typing this message. This body wouldn't exist without my parents indulging their sexual urges.

Fore wrote:We have developed into these creatures because of craving, for some, there may be no more need to give rise to future births. They are simply unbinding the past conditioning and putting an end to desire.


The main reason both myself and my girlfriend were compatible was because neither of us ever wanted children. We both deliberately chose not to have children. Quite frankly, I didn't want the responsibility of bringing up children, nor surrender my limited time and energy to parenting. I can still desire my girlfriend though, I can find her quite alluring at times, and this may or may not lead to intimacy and sexual gratification.

You see the thing is, I can desire (crave) my partner, and we can have sex, or I can desire (crave) my partner and we can not have sex. It doesn't matter either way, I'm not invested in any particular outcome, I am content no matter what happens.

You see the 'peace' is not in denying any particular urge, the peace comes from not being invested in, or expecting any particular outcome.

I am at peace, because I don't mind what happens. Not minding what happens, puts an end to suffering.
“Wisdom is knowing I am nothing, Love is knowing I am everything, and between the two my life moves.” ― Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj
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Re: Where is morality?

Postby Fore » Fri May 29, 2015 1:31 am

DavidB wrote:
If my parents hadn't felt the strong urge to jump into the bed and have gratifying sex, then this body wouldn't be here now typing this message. This body wouldn't exist without my parents indulging their sexual urges.

This is true.

DavidB wrote:
You see the thing is, I can desire (crave) my partner, and we can have sex, or I can desire (crave) my partner and we can not have sex. It doesn't matter either way, I'm not invested in any particular outcome, I am content no matter what happens.

If you were content this craving would not arise. It does matter at the sub-conscious level of mind.

DavidB wrote:
You see the 'peace' is not in denying any particular urge, the peace comes from not being invested in, or expecting any particular outcome.

I'm not talking about denial, I am talking about not feeding these cravings.
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Re: Where is morality?

Postby Enlightened2B » Fri May 29, 2015 1:37 am

Fore wrote:
Enlightened2B wrote:
Then, please answer the question Fore, how do you expect to procreate without sexual desire? :lol:


Don't know what's so funny, it can't be done.

People are at different places evolutionarily, not everybody must procreate.




Yes, people are at different places evolutionarilly, no question. I, like David, have no desire to procreate. Just not something I'm interested in for many reasons.

However, my point is that procreation is (along with many other things) the most natural of all human aspects. Whether one chooses to procreate or not is subjective and entirely up to them, but the fact that procreation exists and is how humans create one another in a physical sense, is in itself evidence that sexual desire (which is how procreation takes place) is not a problem in the slightest and if anything an evolutionary tool, unless of course you perceive it to be a problem. Sexual desire meaning....the urge to have sex. I'm not talking about sex running our lives. I'm referring to the very basic notion of 'being horny'. That's how sex happens. That's how babies are created.

Again whether someone chooses to procreate or not is completely irrelevant to the discussion. The fact remains that procreation is the most natural of all things and therefore sexual urges/sexual desire is as well.
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Re: Where is morality?

Postby DavidB » Fri May 29, 2015 2:04 am

Fore wrote:If you were content this craving would not arise. It does matter at the sub-conscious level of mind.


Craving arises on it's own, and then I become aware of it, not the other way around. The manifestation of craving arises into awareness, it doesn't ask for permission first. I didn't make that happen.


Fore wrote:I'm not talking about denial, I am talking about not feeding these cravings.



Fore wrote:Sexual desire is one of the deepest impurities, it is one of the last roots to be severed.



Maybe you're not talking about denial, but you sure do sound like it. When you talk about sexual desire being a "deepest impurity" and "it is one of the last roots to be severed", it sure sounds like you have some sort of denial agenda.
“Wisdom is knowing I am nothing, Love is knowing I am everything, and between the two my life moves.” ― Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj
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Re: Where is morality?

Postby Fore » Fri May 29, 2015 2:14 am

Enlightened2B wrote: However, my point is that procreation is (along with many other things) the most natural of all human aspects. Whether one chooses to procreate or not is subjective and entirely up to them, but the fact that procreation exists and is how humans create one another in a physical sense, is in itself evidence that sexual desire (which is how procreation takes place) is not a problem in the slightest and if anything an evolutionary tool, unless of course you perceive it to be a problem.

I have not used the word problem, procreation is a result of craving.


Enlightened2B wrote:Sexual desire meaning....the urge to have sex. I'm not talking about sex running our lives. I'm referring to the very basic notion of 'being horny'. That's how sex happens. That's how babies are created.


When mind is full of craving, you can observe this, or feed it, on a moment to moment basis.

Enlightened2B wrote: The fact remains that procreation is the most natural of all things and therefore sexual urges/sexual desire is as well.

Sexual urges are necessary for birth to occur.
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Re: Where is morality?

Postby Enlightened2B » Fri May 29, 2015 3:02 am

Fore wrote:I have not used the word problem, procreation is a result of craving.


Now you're just playing with semantics.

Sexual desire is one of the deepest impurities.


Whether you used the word 'problem' or not is a strawman argument. You can swing it any way you like, but you are undoubtedly making 'sexual desire' into the enemy and therefore a problem, by calling it an 'impurity'. Claiming anything in existence to be 'impure' and I mean ANYTHING, means you're judging something as 'right/wrong'.

Relatively speaking, 2+2=5 is wrong. But, claiming something that exists to be 'impure' is not relative and is merely judgement coming from the limited human perspective who doesn't have all of the answers right now to understand why something exists in the first place.

When mind is full of craving, you can observe this, or feed it, on a moment to moment basis.


Again, if you believe sexual desire=craving, then that's your own belief which you're entitled to.

Sexual urges are necessary for birth to occur.


hmmmm.....you think? 8)
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Re: Where is morality?

Postby Fore » Fri May 29, 2015 3:40 am

Enlightened2B wrote:
Sexual desire is one of the deepest impurities.


Whether you used the word 'problem' or not is a strawman argument. You can swing it any way you like, but you are undoubtedly making 'sexual desire' into the enemy and therefore a problem, by calling it an 'impurity'. Claiming anything in existence to be 'impure' and I mean ANYTHING, means you're judging something as 'right/wrong'.

Desire is not the enemy, this is not a matter of right and wrong, this is simply truth that can be observed by everyone.

Enlightened2B wrote:Again, if you believe sexual desire=craving, then that's your own belief which you're entitled to.

It's literally the definition.
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Re: Where is morality?

Postby Enlightened2B » Fri May 29, 2015 4:06 am

Fore wrote:Desire is not the enemy, this is not a matter of right and wrong, this is simply truth that can be observed by everyone.

It's literally the definition.


No, it is not a universal truth in any way what-so-ever that desire is an impurity nor that desire is a form of craving.

It is only a truth to you, because that is merely your own perception of it and therefore, that is your own belief.

Again, you can't pro-create without sex. You can't have sex without some sort of desire. We are literally going in circles here. I'm not sure what you're attempting to accomplish by the points your making because you're not making any sense.

It is a universal fact that pro-creation can only occur from sex. You, yourself, have your own children as you've mentioned numerous times

If you believe pro-creation itself is an impurity (for whatever reason), well that's a whole other issue and once again, that would be merely......your own opinion and nothing more.
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