Where is morality?

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Re: Where is morality?

Postby DavidB » Fri May 29, 2015 5:32 am

We are literally going in circles here. I'm not sure what you're attempting to accomplish by the points your making because you're not making any sense.


I'm just going to totally speculate here, put it out there, and see where it lands. I have a feeling that Fore isn't looking for a discussion, he/she is looking for consensus?
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Re: Where is morality?

Postby carlojuan77 » Fri May 29, 2015 6:47 am

Okay, you guys answer these...

What made the enlightened beings of our millenia abstain and live a life of asceticism?

Why did Gandhi, who had a wife, chose not to have sex with her in the midst of his struggle with his country's independence?

What made the creators of the laws of Leviticus and in the Bible arrive at such a conclusion to deem that sex has a boundary and that further from it is already immoral and impure?

How did Buddha, who didn't believe in a God, chose to abstain from sex or sexual desire? Why?

How did they arrive at such a conclusion?

These are some of the things that I fear because I think we are being like relativists where anything goes. Wouldn't the world be in havoc if there was no absolute code to adhere to?

Ask yourself this question, if everyone in the world were like you, would it be a better place? (I just had an epiphany with this)
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Re: Where is morality?

Postby DavidB » Fri May 29, 2015 7:17 am

carlojuan77 wrote:What made the enlightened beings of our millenia abstain and live a life of asceticism?


They confused denial with enlightenment.

carlojuan77 wrote:Why did Gandhi, who had a wife, chose not to have sex with her in the midst of his struggle with his country's independence?


I don't know, I never knew Gandhi. Maybe he felt that having sex with his wife was too much of a distraction from dealing with political issues. Maybe he just didn't find her all that attractive and instead of being honest about it, he pretended that he was far too engaged in current affairs to have sex with her. I don't really know.

carlojuan77 wrote:What made the creators of the laws of Leviticus and in the Bible arrive at such a conclusion to deem that sex has a boundary and that further from it is already immoral and impure?


I'll propose that they were accustomed to religious dogmatism, adhering to whatever custom appeared to be most in alignment with their preconceived belief surrounding human sexuality.

carlojuan77 wrote:How did Buddha, who didn't believe in a God, chose to abstain from sex or sexual desire? Why?


I have no idea why Siddhartha Gautama abstained from sex, maybe he had a very small penis and was embarrassed to show it off? I have no idea. Did he abstain from sex? Are the accounts accurate? Are we entirely certain that, abstaining from sex was something Siddhartha Gautama practiced?

carlojuan77 wrote:How did they arrive at such a conclusion?


I'm not entirely sure they did arrive at a conclusion. We have only archaic and 3rd party here say to go upon. Hardly anything more than flimsy 3rd party circumstantial evidence. Where is the direct evidence that any of these people even believed such things?

carlojuan77 wrote:Ask yourself this question, if everyone in the world were like you, would it be a better place? (I just had an epiphany with this)


Better? Maybe, maybe not. What do you mean by better?

Would it be better if everyone were like me? No! The fact that the universe is infinitely diverse is a good thing. It's beautiful and amazing.
Last edited by DavidB on Fri May 29, 2015 7:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Where is morality?

Postby Enlightened2B » Fri May 29, 2015 7:31 am

carlojuan77 wrote:Okay, you guys answer these...

What made the enlightened beings of our millenia abstain and live a life of asceticism?

Why did Gandhi, who had a wife, chose not to have sex with her in the midst of his struggle with his country's independence?

What made the creators of the laws of Leviticus and in the Bible arrive at such a conclusion to deem that sex has a boundary and that further from it is already immoral and impure?

How did Buddha, who didn't believe in a God, chose to abstain from sex or sexual desire? Why?

How did they arrive at such a conclusion?

These are some of the things that I fear because I think we are being like relativists where anything goes. Wouldn't the world be in havoc if there was no absolute code to adhere to?

Ask yourself this question, if everyone in the world were like you, would it be a better place? (I just had an epiphany with this)


Carlo,

I never said there was anything 'wrong' with abstinence, just like I don't see anything 'wrong' with sex. I can freely embrace both.

The poster above (Fore) was making a statement that sexual desire is an 'impurity' which is just a limited opinion, meaning that sexual desire is something that we need to be rid of or transcend (whatever word you would like to use), instead of considering the greater purpose for desires in the first place. If we all had no sexual desire, then there would be no people left on the planet for one. So, there's clearly no universal fact that sexual desire is an 'impurity' because our own physical existence is evidence that sexual desire has a great purpose and that purpose is life itself! That's not an argument against abstinence, but a simple fact that sexual desire is here for a reason which is as clear as daylight. Your own parent's sexual desires are why you are able to be here right now. Abstinence too can be beneficial depending on the situation. But, often religious and spiritual dogmatic views can lead to abstinence.

The larger perspective embraces both abstinence (if one chooses) and sexual desire (if one chooses) because it's all about the quality of the actual experience as opposed to whether one has sex or not. Meaning, neither choice is wrong. There is nothing wrong with sexual desire in any way, shape or form. It's a perfectly normal, natural human need and is the only way to pro-create. Nor is there anything wrong with being abstinent. What we perceive as impure or not impure is merely a product of our own limited understanding.

The only thing to take out of this entire conversation is that our own perspectives are limited and we simply cannot grasp the greater understanding to much of our experience, while we are still operating from the physical level. Therefore, to make claims that desires of any kind are impurities, is simply claiming to know the whole picture, when most of us simply don't. We are just limited perspectives for now, just as my post here and all of the rest in this thread, are too, limited perspectives.
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Re: Where is morality?

Postby carlojuan77 » Fri May 29, 2015 7:40 am

I guess I am just finding it hard to accept that there may be no absolute moral code.

I am a Christian but I don't want to sheepishly follow laws out of fear, punishment, etc. I just want to arrive at a place where I want to because I do not because I have to.

For example, I consider that cursing people in your thoughts is very much the same as actually killing them already. You 'forgive' but your heart is full of hatred and anger. I have learned through the Now and Presence that forgiveness comes easily once you realize the other is acting out their unconscious patterns of behavior. Hence, forgiveness comes NATURALLY so does 'loving my enemies' as well. That's why I am grateful to Tolle's teaching because one of primal emotions of mankind like anger, resentment, fear and violence has been erased completely in my heart.

The catch is that I am having trouble finding that kind of NATURAL inclination to abstain and repent from these things like masturbation, premarital sex and dishonesty with my partner. So there. It's odd that the Power of Now has solved bigger problems for me (e.g. forgiveness, peace, love and compassion) but has failed to tie the loose ends of some other matters. Like what I am experiencing now.
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Re: Where is morality?

Postby carlojuan77 » Fri May 29, 2015 7:46 am

Enlightened2B wrote:
Carlo,

I never said there was anything 'wrong' with abstinence, just like I don't see anything 'wrong' with sex. I can freely embrace both.

The poster above (Fore) was making a statement that sexual desire is an 'impurity' which is just a limited opinion, meaning that sexual desire is something that we need to be rid of or transcend (whatever word you would like to use), instead of considering the greater purpose for desires in the first place. If we all had no sexual desire, then there would be no people left on the planet for one. So, there's clearly no universal fact that sexual desire is an 'impurity' because our own physical existence is evidence that sexual desire has a great purpose and that purpose is life itself! That's not an argument against abstinence, but a simple fact that sexual desire is here for a reason which is as clear as daylight. Your own parent's sexual desires are why you are able to be here right now. Abstinence too can be beneficial depending on the situation. But, often religious and spiritual dogmatic views can lead to abstinence.

The larger perspective embraces both abstinence (if one chooses) and sexual desire (if one chooses) because it's all about the quality of the actual experience as opposed to whether one has sex or not. Meaning, neither choice is wrong. There is nothing wrong with sexual desire in any way, shape or form. It's a perfectly normal, natural human need and is the only way to pro-create. Nor is there anything wrong with being abstinent. What we perceive as impure or not impure is merely a product of our own limited understanding.

The only thing to take out of this entire conversation is that our own perspectives are limited and we simply cannot grasp the greater understanding to much of our experience, while we are still operating from the physical level. Therefore, to make claims that desires of any kind are impurities, is simply claiming to know the whole picture, when most of us simply don't. We are just limited perspectives for now, just as my post here and all of the rest in this thread, are too, limited perspectives.


Yes I understand and I agree with you that there is nothing impure with sexual desire. I mean there is an entire book in the Bible for sex! Songs of Solomon.

Anyway, my concern is that when does it become harmful, immoral or destructive?

Cause if we were to extrapolate what you said then how would you define the sexual conduct of today's generation? Partying, casual sex, etc.

Is this rampant sexual desire amongst the 21st century generation natural and good? Or is there already a form of unconsciousness going on?
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Re: Where is morality?

Postby DavidB » Fri May 29, 2015 7:53 am

There is no way to know the big picture. We are limited human beings. We cannot say for certain whether one thing is good or another is not good. We can only make assumptions based upon our own limited experience, and we all know that those assumptions are frequently mistaken, frequently faulty.

What is consciousness doing (God if you like)? I have no idea. Trust in life, that ultimately, we are not in control.
Last edited by DavidB on Fri May 29, 2015 8:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Where is morality?

Postby DavidB » Fri May 29, 2015 8:24 am

carlojuan77 wrote:Anyway, my concern is that when does it become harmful, immoral or destructive?


Oh, frequently. If history teaches us anything at all, it is that everything becomes harmful, immoral and destructive, especially the desire to control human behavior.

carlojuan77 wrote:Cause if we were to extrapolate what you said then how would you define the sexual conduct of today's generation? Partying, casual sex, etc.

Is this rampant sexual desire amongst the 21st century generation natural and good? Or is there already a form of unconsciousness going on?


The partying, casual sex etc, is a direct rebellion against forced con-form-ity. It is in respect, a mistaken assault against morality, against forced con-form-ity. Of course, the mature amongst us already realize, that there is no conformity, there is no morality, everything is relative to the observer, relative to the individual, never absolutely true, only ever relatively true.

The only thing that is absolutely true, is that there is in us, an active awareness of being. We are in fact, none of the things we experience, we are none of the things manifest in this world, we are in fact, the very essence from with which everything is manifest, everything becomes into being. This is a radical perspective, this is transformation.
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Re: Where is morality?

Postby carlojuan77 » Fri May 29, 2015 11:36 am

DavidB wrote:The only thing that is absolutely true, is that there is in us, an active awareness of being. We are in fact, none of the things we experience, we are none of the things manifest in this world, we are in fact, the very essence from with which everything is manifest, everything becomes into being. This is a radical perspective, this is transformation.


Yes. It is quite liberating to finally realize Being and this God-essence or Presence within all of us. However, realizing such makes me fear that people might abuse the manifested form, like that of a video game character, and do whatever he or she wants because "nothing really matters" in this world we are Being, etc.
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Re: Where is morality?

Postby Onceler » Fri May 29, 2015 12:19 pm

carlojuan77 wrote:
Enlightened2B wrote:
Carlo,

I never said there was anything 'wrong' with abstinence, just like I don't see anything 'wrong' with sex. I can freely embrace both.

The poster above (Fore) was making a statement that sexual desire is an 'impurity' which is just a limited opinion, meaning that sexual desire is something that we need to be rid of or transcend (whatever word you would like to use), instead of considering the greater purpose for desires in the first place. If we all had no sexual desire, then there would be no people left on the planet for one. So, there's clearly no universal fact that sexual desire is an 'impurity' because our own physical existence is evidence that sexual desire has a great purpose and that purpose is life itself! That's not an argument against abstinence, but a simple fact that sexual desire is here for a reason which is as clear as daylight. Your own parent's sexual desires are why you are able to be here right now. Abstinence too can be beneficial depending on the situation. But, often religious and spiritual dogmatic views can lead to abstinence.

The larger perspective embraces both abstinence (if one chooses) and sexual desire (if one chooses) because it's all about the quality of the actual experience as opposed to whether one has sex or not. Meaning, neither choice is wrong. There is nothing wrong with sexual desire in any way, shape or form. It's a perfectly normal, natural human need and is the only way to pro-create. Nor is there anything wrong with being abstinent. What we perceive as impure or not impure is merely a product of our own limited understanding.

The only thing to take out of this entire conversation is that our own perspectives are limited and we simply cannot grasp the greater understanding to much of our experience, while we are still operating from the physical level. Therefore, to make claims that desires of any kind are impurities, is simply claiming to know the whole picture, when most of us simply don't. We are just limited perspectives for now, just as my post here and all of the rest in this thread, are too, limited perspectives.


Yes I understand and I agree with you that there is nothing impure with sexual desire. I mean there is an entire book in the Bible for sex! Songs of Solomon.

Anyway, my concern is that when does it become harmful, immoral or destructive?

Cause if we were to extrapolate what you said then how would you define the sexual conduct of today's generation? Partying, casual sex, etc.

Is this rampant sexual desire amongst the 21st century generation natural and good? Or is there already a form of unconsciousness going on?


I doubt that the 21st century generation has anymore rampant sexual desire than any other generation.

In my mind, sex becomes harmful or immoral when others get hurt directly or an individual is caught in an addictive pattern that directly or indirectly hurts others. Casual sex, drunken sex, etc. without regard for the other person can be harmful. Passing on STDs to another without letting them know is harmful. Porn addiction and masturbation to the point where it disrupts ones life and harms relationships can be harmful.

Perhaps over time we have come to realize that the best way to minimize harm is to limit sex to a committed relationship or abstain from it altogether. I see no harm in sex between consensual adults or in masterbation that is not addictive.....where that line is, I'm not sure. Just as with eating, drinking, etc, the line between normal, healthy consumption and harm is complex and hard to define. Rigid/black and white morality has its uses, but it can only set an arbitrary boundary. This can be useful, but also lead to guilt and shame about sexuality. Better to be a fully conscious human being using ones natural intelligence to determine whether ones actions cause harm and take responsibility and restore harmony when they do.
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Re: Where is morality?

Postby Fore » Fri May 29, 2015 12:37 pm

Enlightened2B wrote:No, it is not a universal truth in any way what-so-ever that desire is an impurity nor that desire is a form of craving.

Desire is not a form of craving desire is craving, its wanting.

Enlightened2B wrote:Again, you can't pro-create without sex. You can't have sex without some sort of desire. We are literally going in circles here. I'm not sure what you're attempting to accomplish by the points your making because you're not making any sense.

It is clear that you do not comprehend what I am discussing here with regard to self creation/birth, I am willing to patiently reiterate this process over and over again as it is a truth.
I'm not arguing the point that you cannot have birth without desire, I'm not suggesting this is a problem either. But if suffering is to end, one must come out of craving/desire. I am discussing the path from apparent realities to ultimate reality, this realization you are looking for. Depending on the depth of realization different desires are eradicated, there is a sequential order from dark to bright. Craving for form is not simply about sex, the darker cravings may lead one to rape another or molest a child. Some desire is to eat flesh, some desire is to be penetrated by flesh, some desire is to reproduce flesh.
Some darker cravings consume mind and cause an agitated state, so much craving not enough awareness, one is continuously blind, and circles samsara in a continuous state of rebirth.
The path to self realization is three parts, firstly morality, second mastery of the mind, with these two and only with a certain strength of these two, the third part of the path, the field of direct experience can be entered.
As one progresses one sees these three parts of the path are legs, they form the base(like a tripod) if one leg is weak the structure falls over. When all three are complete and strong they converge at a singularity(oneness).
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Re: Where is morality?

Postby carlojuan77 » Fri May 29, 2015 12:42 pm

Fore wrote:It is clear that you do not comprehend what I am discussing here with regard to self creation/birth, I am willing to patiently reiterate this process over and over again as it is a truth.
I'm not arguing the point that you cannot have birth without desire, I'm not suggesting this is a problem either. But if suffering is to end, one must come out of craving/desire. I am discussing the path from apparent realities to ultimate reality, this realization you are looking for. Depending on the depth of realization different desires are eradicated, there is a sequential order from dark to bright. Craving for form is not simply about sex, the darker cravings may lead one to rape another or molest a child. Some desire is to eat flesh, some desire is to be penetrated by flesh, some desire is to reproduce flesh.
Some darker cravings consume mind and cause an agitated state, so much craving not enough awareness, one is continuously blind, and circles samsara in a continuous state of rebirth.
The path to self realization is three parts, firstly morality, second mastery of the mind, with these two and only with a certain strength of these two, the third part of the path, the field of direct experience can be entered.
As one progresses one sees these three parts of the path are legs, they form the base(like a tripod) if one leg is weak the structure falls over. When all three are complete and strong they converge at a singularity(oneness).


Although I may not fully comprehend, there seems to be a ring of truth to what you are saying. Like something in me "knows"
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Re: Where is morality?

Postby Fore » Fri May 29, 2015 12:47 pm

carlojuan77 wrote:Okay, you guys answer these...

What made the enlightened beings of our millenia abstain and live a life of asceticism?

Why did Gandhi, who had a wife, chose not to have sex with her in the midst of his struggle with his country's independence?

What made the creators of the laws of Leviticus and in the Bible arrive at such a conclusion to deem that sex has a boundary and that further from it is already immoral and impure?

How did Buddha, who didn't believe in a God, chose to abstain from sex or sexual desire? Why?

How did they arrive at such a conclusion?

Initially when we first begin walking the path there is a level of abstinence(training rules) but as one progresses they come to see moral behaviour as a natural process. No force required, one sees the misery created by immoral behaviour and one naturally comes out of these actions.

This process begins at the mental level this is where the creation takes place, the following physical action is of little importance.
If anger arises in the mind, there is immediate misery, this being begins to suffer, whether this being shouts or hits someone else is inconsequential, the self creation has occurred. There will be consequences at the physical level for your actions, one may get in trouble with the laws of society, but as far as self creation, this cycle is completed.
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Re: Where is morality?

Postby carlojuan77 » Fri May 29, 2015 1:49 pm

[quote="Fore"]
Initially when we first begin walking the path there is a level of abstinence(training rules) but as one progresses they come to see moral behaviour as a natural process. No force required, one sees the misery created by immoral behaviour and one naturally comes out of these actions.

[quote]

What is the misery caused by murder?

What is the misery caused by sexual immorality?
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Re: Where is morality?

Postby Enlightened2B » Fri May 29, 2015 3:46 pm

Fore wrote:It is clear that you do not comprehend what I am discussing here with regard to self creation/birth,


Because you're clearly not explaining what you mean prior to this post, so how can we comprehend what you're attempting to say?

I am willing to patiently reiterate this process over and over again as it is a truth.


No, once again, it is not truth. It is your truth. What you're not realizing, is that you're dogmatically putting your own views and opinions forth as universal truths. That's where you start to step into muddy water. This is why you keep calling people 'confused', because you seemingly can not accept a perspective/another's experience that is different than yours.

I'm not arguing the point that you cannot have birth without desire, I'm not suggesting this is a problem either.


Actually, yes you are blatantly arguing that. You're just mincing your words now as I've already pointed out in the other posts.

Depending on the depth of realization different desires are eradicated, there is a sequential order from dark to bright.


Who says there is a sequential order for everyone? Everyone's experience is different.

Craving for form is not simply about sex,


Of course it's not. But we're not talking about other cravings here. This topic of discussion was strictly about sexual desires. Now, you're just changing the subject because you have no answer to the fact put forth that sexual desire most certainly equals pro-creation. But, none of us are talking about craving. You keep using that word craving in place of basic sexual urges/desires.

the darker cravings may lead one to rape another or molest a child. Some desire is to eat flesh, some desire is to be penetrated by flesh, some desire is to reproduce flesh.
Some darker cravings consume mind and cause an agitated state, so much craving not enough awareness, one is continuously blind, and circles samsara in a continuous state of rebirth.


None of this has anything to do with what we're talking about though. We're talking about basic sexual urges and desires....the kind that produce babies and you're going off now on a completely different tangent.

The path to self realization is three parts, firstly morality, second mastery of the mind, with these two and only with a certain strength of these two, the third part of the path, the field of direct experience can be entered.


Not that I would say I completely disagree with what you've written here. However, this is pure spiritual dogma here and you're getting it from the vipassana stuff because I've been reading their philosophy (and it most certainly is philosophy) and it's almost word for word what you say on this board. I love their meditation practice and I'm following it myself, but please understand that, taking any kind of teaching as an utter truth is just more limitations. I don't disagree with everything you say, but you can't keep calling people 'confused' when they disagree with your perspective. It's you who's confused, not them, because you can't embrace perspectives that differ from yours. I'm very grateful for you sharing your experiences on this board and for your recommendation for vipassana meditation as I find their meditation techniques quite helpful as it resonates much with mindfulness. But, you're spouting other stuff as universal truths, when they're just your own opinions and perhaps your own experiences.
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