Where is morality?

Talk about anything Tolle-related here.

Re: Where is morality?

Postby Enlightened2B » Fri May 29, 2015 3:56 pm

carlojuan77 wrote:
Anyway, my concern is that when does it become harmful, immoral or destructive?


immoral is a human word that humans create. Morality is completely subjective to the perceiver that deems something as moral/immoral. It's just more duality.

Cause if we were to extrapolate what you said then how would you define the sexual conduct of today's generation? Partying, casual sex, etc.


May I ask....what's wrong with casual sex if it's consensual? If two people both agree that they don't want a monogamous relationship and agree that they both want sex, what's wrong with that? You only make something right/wrong by your own perception of it.

Is this rampant sexual desire amongst the 21st century generation natural and good? Or is there already a form of unconsciousness going on?


Of course there is unconsciousness going on. You know that as well as I do. But, why be so concerned with what others choose to do? Why not just worry about your own experience? If people want to have casual sex, then so be it. If you don't agree with it, then don't do it.

Again, good/bad are relative terms of the human mind. Consider instead, that the larger perspective (which we will know once we leave these bodies) is far more inclusive and there will be a far greater understanding that we simply can't grasp right now.
Enlightened2B
 
Posts: 1885
Joined: Wed May 15, 2013 10:51 pm
Location: New York

Re: Where is morality?

Postby Rob X » Fri May 29, 2015 5:42 pm

DavidB wrote:What manifest in this moment is sexual desire, craving manifest in this moment, a perfectly valid human biological need. Accepting this moment is accepting that sexual desire and sexual craving are manifest.

When there is craving, there is craving, when there is no craving, there is no craving. Being aware of both brings peace, not one over the other.


Yes, both craving and non-craving are manifestations of the dynamic event of existence (Being/Consciousness etc.) No different to the shifting tides or weather systems or the functioning of DNA. Ease comes in the realisation that whatever manifests, however it appears is not other than a modulation of this mysterious dance. This may include the desire towards self-improvement (or not - depending on how we are inclined.) Notice that I say 'desire' towards improvement - even the movement towards perfection is a desire, a subtle craving.

As you indicate, awareness is the key - seeing our conditioning for what it is creates a distance from where to act effectively.
User avatar
Rob X
 
Posts: 312
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:37 pm

Re: Where is morality?

Postby Enlightened2B » Fri May 29, 2015 6:17 pm

I noticed this in your posts Carlo. I found it interesting. You say this below

carlojuan77 wrote:I am a Christian


But, then you also say this:

Yes. It is quite liberating to finally realize Being and this God-essence or Presence within all of us


Point being that while all religions ultimately point to the truth of Presence, I don't know how you can acknowledge being this Presence/God essence while still identify with being a (Christian, Jew, Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, etc).

I think part of the issue here might be that you are still tied in with some beliefs of yours which is where the moral aspect is coming from and perhaps you're trying to resolve them from the mind aspect in relation to your own religion? I could be wrong of course and you can totally call me out on that. Just something I noticed and perhaps thought it was where this dilemma stemmed from.

Identifying with 'being a christian' perhaps is something you might want to explore more in meditation or whatever practice works for you and question what that means to you. Are you a christian? What does it mean to be a christian?
Enlightened2B
 
Posts: 1885
Joined: Wed May 15, 2013 10:51 pm
Location: New York

Re: Where is morality?

Postby Fore » Fri May 29, 2015 11:22 pm

carlojuan77 wrote:
What is the misery caused by murder?

If you were to look at someone about to commit murder, I do not feel that you would be witnessing a person at peace, they would be full of tension.

carlojuan77 wrote: What is the misery caused by sexual immorality?

Well lets say someone is cheating on their spouse, they also would be full of tension, running around, lying. Not much peace of mind.
User avatar
Fore
 
Posts: 664
Joined: Fri Aug 02, 2013 4:20 pm

Re: Where is morality?

Postby Fore » Fri May 29, 2015 11:54 pm

Enlightened2B wrote: Because you're clearly not explaining what you mean prior to this post, so how can we comprehend what you're attempting to say?

I'm willing to explain, and giving a try at this. There are obviously some things I've said that challenge your belief structure.

Enlightened2B wrote: No, once again, it is not truth. It is your truth. What you're not realizing, is that you're dogmatically putting your own views and opinions forth as universal truths.

This is the truth within the universe of my experience, what else could I possibly discuss. I only speak about my experience with regards to these teachings.


Enlightened2B wrote: That's where you start to step into muddy water. This is why you keep calling people 'confused', because you seemingly can not accept a perspective/another's experience that is different than yours.

The experience may be different, but there is a common ground in the way the mind and body phenomenon comes into existence. I will not accept that desire is not the same as craving, they are both wanting. You most definitely are confused with this regard and I'm simply calling you on this. Do clarify the difference? If I see confusion, I call the person on this matter so they can further explain their reasoning. I'm not sure what else to call this?

Enlightened2B wrote: Actually, yes you are blatantly arguing that. You're just mincing your words now as I've already pointed out in the other posts.

Perhaps we should start again, we are most likely coming from different angles here, and this may be cause for the mix-up. There is some confusion if you feel this is my basis for argument.

Enlightened2B wrote: Who says there is a sequential order for everyone? Everyone's experience is different.

Correct the experience may be different, but like each of us is affected by gravity, the heaviest energetic entities, will be let go of first, If we carry this heavy baggage how can we rise out of this misery. The heavy baggage is let go of first, then one moves to subtler realities, then these are let go of, then even subtler realities are experienced, etc....

Enlightened2B wrote: Of course it's not. But we're not talking about other cravings here. This topic of discussion was strictly about sexual desires. Now, you're just changing the subject because you have no answer to the fact put forth that sexual desire most certainly equals pro-creation. But, none of us are talking about craving. You keep using that word craving in place of basic sexual urges/desires.


Would you die if you did not have sex, why do you feel it is necessary to experience these basic urges/desires. Do you not feel that one can come out of these desires. I'm not completely free from these, but my sex drive has decreased immensely.
I'm sure there will remain a healthy number of people who will pick up the slack if I stop participating. Your arguments about world population make it seem as though you are intentionally being obtuse.


Enlightened2B wrote: None of this has anything to do with what we're talking about though. We're talking about basic sexual urges and desires....the kind that produce babies and you're going off now on a completely different tangent.

The topic is morality, I feel this is quite on-topic.

Enlightened2B wrote: I love their meditation practice and I'm following it myself,

How can you possibly follow this technique unless you have attended a course?
User avatar
Fore
 
Posts: 664
Joined: Fri Aug 02, 2013 4:20 pm

Re: Where is morality?

Postby Enlightened2B » Sat May 30, 2015 12:36 am

Fore wrote:I'm willing to explain, and giving a try at this. There are obviously some things I've said that challenge your belief structure.


Fore, most of what you've written here is like another language to me and makes little sense to me for the most part, let alone finding it challenging to my own beliefs.

Sexual desire is one of the deepest impurities

You think that THIS statement of yours challenges my beliefs? What belief would that possibly challenge? The belief that sex is NOT an impurity ? :lol: That's not a belief Fore. If you give me a reason TO believe that a basic biological act in order to create life is an impurity, well maybe I can grab on to the same belief that you're projecting here and yes, ironically, you probably can't see that the statement that sexual desire is an impurity is merely your own belief.

This is the truth within the universe of my experience, what else could I possibly discuss. I only speak about my experience with regards to these teachings.


Ok, that's a start. You're acknowledging that it's your own truth. However, that completely contradicts the below statement....

that desire is not the same as craving, they are both wanting. You most definitely are confused with this regard and I'm simply calling you on this. Do clarify the difference? If I see confusion, I call the person on this matter so they can further explain their reasoning. I'm not sure what else to call this?


This vastly contradicts your last point above, about your experience being your own truths. If it's only your truth from your experience as you claimed above, then how can another perspective be confused? Are you the most enlightened being on the planet? I'm sure you would agree that you're not. Therefore, how can you know that your perspective is the only valid perspective enough to claim another perspective that sees it merely differently than you as 'confused'?

You see Fore.....You see confusion with my perspective and others, because I (and others) don't see craving equating to sexual desire in the same way that you do, and the fact that you're projecting this on to me or another poster as labeling me or another as 'confused' is incredibly unloving on your part. Love embraces another perspective, even if it disagrees. Fear which is what you are projecting, limits and you are limiting others by claiming that only your perspective is valid. You are not allowing another perspective to have a say and be, because the other perspective sees it differently than you. Sorry my friend, but I don't agree that sexual desire equates to craving. I guess I'm just confused. 8)

Would you die if you did not have sex, why do you feel it is necessary to experience these basic urges/desires. Do you not feel that one can come out of these desires. I'm not completely free from these, but my sex drive has decreased immensely.
I'm sure there will remain a healthy number of people who will pick up the slack if I stop participating. Your arguments about world population make it seem as though you are intentionally being obtuse.


But, I never said I couldn't live without sex. Let me re-phrase my point. You posted that 'Sexual Desire is an impurity'. My response was that if sexual desire is what is needed to pro-create, meaning it's obviously perfectly a natural biological process, then how could it possibly be an impurity? How can pro-creation be impure? The statement makes no sense UNLESS, you have some sort of agenda against sex and it's starting to sound that way.

How could anything that is natural and a process of life be impure? Again, I'm not talking about addiction. Desiring your spouse or partner is not craving and is not addiction. These are just your own beliefs. It will only appear that way if you believe it is and if that's your perspective, then so be it. Yet, understand, I'm referring to the very very basic notion of desiring your spouse or your partner. That's how babies are made. That's how life is formed. You are calling that impure. You are therefore, calling life impure.

On the other hand, I can TOTALLY understand wanting to abstain from sex if you find it too alluring as a form of spiritual practice. I'm doing something similar to that right now. However, if one does choose to have sex in presence, that does not make sexual desire into an impurity outside of the limited belief that claims as such. Again, you only limit that by which you label. You're labelling a biological human act as impure and therefore, you are limiting your experience.

The topic is morality, I feel this is quite on-topic.


Morality was the initial topic of the thread. But the back and forth between you and I was 100 percent in reference to the quote that sexual desire is an impurity and that's the only thing I'm attempting to reference in our back and forth for this discussion.


How can you possibly follow this technique unless you have attended a course?


The section of their website on 'how to meditate'. You might not have seen it. I think it's fabulous.
Enlightened2B
 
Posts: 1885
Joined: Wed May 15, 2013 10:51 pm
Location: New York

Re: Where is morality?

Postby Fore » Sat May 30, 2015 1:48 am

Enlightened2B wrote:
that desire is not the same as craving, they are both wanting.


This vastly contradicts your last point above,


I looked the word up in the dictionary, desire is craving(wanting). I will not go any further with you, until you can explain to me how this is not so.
This seems to be where our disagreement stems from.
Craving is not being with this moment as it is, it is wanting to change this moment, this leads to self creation(birth). This is truth.



Enlightened2B wrote: I don't agree that sexual desire equates to craving. I guess I'm just confused. 8)

This is truth.


Enlightened2B wrote: How can pro-creation be impure?

Impurity: a thing or ingredient that impairs the purity.
Your at one with this moment, your simply being with this moment. Along comes desire, now there is desire to change this moment. You are still being with this moment you are not reacting to this arising desire. Then you are overcome with this desire and seek out and have sex with you loving spouse whom you are in a committed relation. She is impregnated, she has a baby.
You were simply being(one), this desire to have sex with a partner(duality), now there is you and another, then comes the baby (now there is three).
This is a gross perspective but from an ultimate standpoint you see how self creation comes into being. How can self realization occur when focus is on others.
This is what Eckhart is teaching and pointing towards(self realization) this is what I discuss on this forum. Having a happy harmonious relationship is simply a bi-product of developing insight.
Desire causes self creation, it most certainly does in an internal egoic manner and it can also create self on the external.

Enlightened2B wrote: How could anything that is natural and a process of life be impure? Again, I'm not talking about addiction. Desiring your spouse or partner is not craving and is not addiction.

Yes, it is.



Enlightened2B wrote: On the other hand, I can TOTALLY understand wanting to abstain from sex if you find it too alluring as a form of spiritual practice.

The practice is to come out of desire, to put an end to egoic self creation, it is necessary to abstain from sex if you are to go deeper into the mind. This does not have to be all the time for lay-folk, but during periods of spiritual practice this is necessary.
Watch this
https://youtu.be/2UEbG08OvNc

Two quotes from Eckhart:
"Fear and desire are the two movements of the unconscious state."
"The old species is incapable of survival unless it changes."(This is a truth, but how could he know this? This sounds like a belief structure like some Dogma. But this isn't, this is a truth, that one can see in the field of experience. The ego cannot survive unless it is continuously creating new selves, arising and passing.)


Enlightened2B wrote: The section of their website on 'how to meditate'. You might not have seen it. I think it's fabulous.

You must be mistaken, there are no teachings available online, you must receive the teaching in the introductory course over a ten day period.
User avatar
Fore
 
Posts: 664
Joined: Fri Aug 02, 2013 4:20 pm

Re: Where is morality?

Postby carlojuan77 » Sat May 30, 2015 3:13 am

Enlightened2B wrote:I noticed this in your posts Carlo. I found it interesting. You say this below

carlojuan77 wrote:I am a Christian


But, then you also say this:

Yes. It is quite liberating to finally realize Being and this God-essence or Presence within all of us


Point being that while all religions ultimately point to the truth of Presence, I don't know how you can acknowledge being this Presence/God essence while still identify with being a (Christian, Jew, Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, etc).

I think part of the issue here might be that you are still tied in with some beliefs of yours which is where the moral aspect is coming from and perhaps you're trying to resolve them from the mind aspect in relation to your own religion? I could be wrong of course and you can totally call me out on that. Just something I noticed and perhaps thought it was where this dilemma stemmed from.

Identifying with 'being a christian' perhaps is something you might want to explore more in meditation or whatever practice works for you and question what that means to you. Are you a christian? What does it mean to be a christian?


You are true on that part that I am trying to reconcile Christianity with Presence and Now. Mainly because I have benefited a lot spiritually from both of them.

With Presence and Now I no longer seek God elsewhere and blame life for my misery. Now, I simply know that whatever happens my Presence is always there to give my peace, love and joy and that Presence is God. Hence, I am the beggar who has been conscious that I have been sitting at a pile of gold all along. I know that whatever happens, I have no fear because I am already wealthy within.

Second, I am grateful for whatever circumstances because they are all for the Greater Good. They can all be transmuted to love, peace and joy. As you may know by now, suffering can also be transmuted into light. With Presence I was able come out of my dreadful OCD and was able to had a taste of Enlightenment.
carlojuan77
 
Posts: 18
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 11:09 am

Re: Where is morality?

Postby DavidB » Sat May 30, 2015 3:42 am

carlojuan77 wrote:
DavidB wrote:The only thing that is absolutely true, is that there is in us, an active awareness of being. We are in fact, none of the things we experience, we are none of the things manifest in this world, we are in fact, the very essence from with which everything is manifest, everything becomes into being. This is a radical perspective, this is transformation.


Yes. It is quite liberating to finally realize Being and this God-essence or Presence within all of us. However, realizing such makes me fear that people might abuse the manifested form, like that of a video game character, and do whatever he or she wants because "nothing really matters" in this world we are Being, etc.


That's why people tend to create rules,morality, and attempt to force conformity, because they fear that the 'other' isn't mature enough, isn't intelligent or wise enough to live there life consciously and needs to be told how to live, what think and how to behave.

If we want people to become conscious, then we need to trust that they are capable of it. Becoming consciously aware is a bottom up approach, it must be something that develops in each individual by free choice and never by coercion, unlike something like socialism/communism/fascism, which is a heavy handed top down approach, attempting to enforce conformity through centralized power, which always fails.
“Wisdom is knowing I am nothing, Love is knowing I am everything, and between the two my life moves.” ― Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj
User avatar
DavidB
 
Posts: 640
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:55 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Where is morality?

Postby Enlightened2B » Sat May 30, 2015 5:37 am

carlojuan77 wrote:
You are true on that part that I am trying to reconcile Christianity with Presence and Now. Mainly because I have benefited a lot spiritually from both of them.

With Presence and Now I no longer seek God elsewhere and blame life for my misery. Now, I simply know that whatever happens my Presence is always there to give my peace, love and joy and that Presence is God. Hence, I am the beggar who has been conscious that I have been sitting at a pile of gold all along. I know that whatever happens, I have no fear because I am already wealthy within.

Second, I am grateful for whatever circumstances because they are all for the Greater Good. They can all be transmuted to love, peace and joy. As you may know by now, suffering can also be transmuted into light. With Presence I was able come out of my dreadful OCD and was able to had a taste of Enlightenment.


I too have OCD or have had OCD for a number of years. Not as bad as other people have had, but it's definitely manifested in my life at times and I too, have found that meditation or presence has helped it, but still rears its head for me.
Enlightened2B
 
Posts: 1885
Joined: Wed May 15, 2013 10:51 pm
Location: New York

Re: Where is morality?

Postby Enlightened2B » Sat May 30, 2015 6:13 am

Fore wrote:Impurity: a thing or ingredient that impairs the purity.
Your at one with this moment, your simply being with this moment. Along comes desire, now there is desire to change this moment. You are still being with this moment you are not reacting to this arising desire. Then you are overcome with this desire and seek out and have sex with you loving spouse whom you are in a committed relation. She is impregnated, she has a baby.
You were simply being(one), this desire to have sex with a partner(duality), now there is you and another, then comes the baby (now there is three).
This is a gross perspective but from an ultimate standpoint you see how self creation comes into being. How can self realization occur when focus is on others.
This is what Eckhart is teaching and pointing towards(self realization) this is what I discuss on this forum. Having a happy harmonious relationship is simply a bi-product of developing insight.
Desire causes self creation, it most certainly does in an internal egoic manner and it can also create self on the external.


This has to be one the most ridiculous things I have ever read. I mean ........what??!!! I'm sorry man, but I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. You're really reaching here it sounds like.

I don't see any hope for a balanced discussion here, when you continue to label another person as confused as you have done once again in this post. The fact that you still can't acknowledge/grasp this very simple point in my last post that I'm trying to get across, means that you are limiting yourself to your own belief structures. Hence why I continue to appear 'confused' to you. You speak truths. Anything that differs from your idea of truth is not truth.

We all have beliefs. Mine most certainly get in the way at times, but sometimes I need someone to smack me across the head every now and then and say....wake up! Lovingly of course. I'm trying to do that to you by pointing out how ridiculous it is to continue to label your own perspective as 'truth' and to continue to call people 'confused' when they disagree with you and it's not working. It was worth the effort. 8)

You must be mistaken, there are no teachings available online, you must receive the teaching in the introductory course over a ten day period.


http://www.vipassanadhura.com/howto.htm#a
Enlightened2B
 
Posts: 1885
Joined: Wed May 15, 2013 10:51 pm
Location: New York

Re: Where is morality?

Postby Enlightened2B » Sat May 30, 2015 6:43 am

Fore wrote:I looked the word up in the dictionary, desire is craving(wanting). I will not go any further with you, until you can explain to me how this is not so.
This seems to be where our disagreement stems from.


Does it really matter if I agree with you on a definition of a word? Once again, you've ignored the initial statement of yours that sexual desire is an impurity by changing course and arguing silly semantic points now. Whether you want to call it a craving or not, is irrelevant to me. I just don't care. Call desire, craving if you would like. It means nothing to me, but words.

On the other hand, the intent behind calling sexual desire an impurity is a judgement, which you are then labeling as a 'truth', when it's nothing more than a belief of yours.

Craving is not being with this moment as it is, it is wanting to change this moment, this leads to self creation(birth). This is truth.


While I don't fully disagree with your definition of craving.... you keep linking desire and craving to self creation (birth) as if self creation is something to get away from or be avoided and then....you go on to label your own perspective on self creation as......truth (bolded above). It's almost like you're grasping for straws to make a case that desire and craving is what leads to sex and what leads to self creation and self creation is what we want to avoid. Do you have the direct experience to know why you incarnated here in the first place? Of course you don't. Neither do I. So, what you're saying above then, is merely an assumption of yours and in no way.....represents any kind of truth. To label your own assumptions as truths is to unconsciously project your own belief.

Not to mention but your own interpretation of self creation sounds like spiritual dogma you've caught on to from somewhere. If you're referring to re-incarnation, (not sure if you are) I think you have a muddled understanding of re-incarnation that's again been colored and overlayed by spiritual dogma that you've taken on as a belief (which you again, label as truth). Instead, check out Michael Newton's work for a deeper understanding of re-incarnation.
Enlightened2B
 
Posts: 1885
Joined: Wed May 15, 2013 10:51 pm
Location: New York

Re: Where is morality?

Postby carlojuan77 » Sat May 30, 2015 8:10 am

Ok. What say you with this video? This is EXACTLY one of my concerns. Thoughts?

Eckhart Tolle and Marianne Williamson on the dichotomy of good and bad

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MfEt40m2G0
carlojuan77
 
Posts: 18
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 11:09 am

Re: Where is morality?

Postby carlojuan77 » Sat May 30, 2015 8:28 am

Kindly answer these questions:

If unconsciousness isn't necessarily bad per se, then does that make all bad deeds NOT bad? They are just unconscious?

If death is not a big deal, then does that make killing or murder not a big deal?

If we do unconscious deeds, what are the consequences of those actions?

Do you think it is necessary to have a fear of eternal punishment or damnation in order be good and do good deeds? Do you guys believe in it?
carlojuan77
 
Posts: 18
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 11:09 am

Re: Where is morality?

Postby Fore » Sat May 30, 2015 1:22 pm

Enlightened2B wrote: . The fact that you still can't acknowledge/grasp this very simple point in my last post that I'm trying to get across, means that you are limiting yourself to your own belief structures.

"Desire is a movement of the unconscious state." Eckhart Tolle
This is the cause of birth(self creation), unconsciousness/blind reaction.
Are you saying Eckhart is confused here, or mistaken?
Please answer the question so we may go further in this discussion, I am curious to know what you feel the difference is here, with regard to craving/desire and the relation to self creation(birth).

You must be mistaken, there are no teachings available online, you must receive the teaching in the introductory course over a ten day period.



This is not the same teaching I am describing, this is a completely different technique. It works with observing the rise and fall of the abdomen and noting thoughts/feelings as they arise, pain/pain/pain for example until they subside and you then go back to rise and fall.

The technique I practice uses the spot at the base of the nostrils, and there is no noting involved.

As I was saying there are no formal teaching available online you must attend a full 10 days course to receive the full technique.
User avatar
Fore
 
Posts: 664
Joined: Fri Aug 02, 2013 4:20 pm

PreviousNext

Return to General Eckhart Tolle Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests