Eckhart's knowledge of gradual awakening...

[NuanceOfSuchness]

This would seem to contradict his own experience of sudden awakening. It always made me curious about the wealth of experience he has on moving towards becoming awake having not gone through the process himself. After listening to this video I have a deeper understanding about how that has come about. The video starts at 24 minutes in as this pertinent part is most accommodating to my curiosity of the conflict between his sudden awakening and gradual awakening.

https://youtu.be/Pdy0pNEDvoQ?t=24m10s

[jukai]

For what it's worth, I don't believe his story of sudden (overnight) awakening. I think it comes in waves, for anyone and everyone. We awaken on a daily basis, and we lapse on a daily basis. Some people just have to pretend that it happened to them suddenly, so they can sell books and retreats.

[NuanceOfSuchness]

For what it's worth, I don't believe his story of sudden (overnight) awakening. I think it comes in waves, for anyone and everyone. We awaken on a daily basis, and we lapse on a daily basis. Some people just have to pretend that it happened to them suddenly, so they can sell books and retreats.

I agree that the intensity of an awakened mind can shift even into a state of non-intensity. I cannot be certain if that non-intensity shares the same characteristics of being unconscious though as I haven't experienced days, weeks and months of being in this state. I also agree that some people have to pretend which usually manifests as ego reconstructing itself in the guise of spiritualism in order to obtain financial wealth. I struggle to see this in Eckhart himself. Eckhart's life situation has changed very little. He never says 'wealthy' or 'rich', he simply refers to his wealth as 'the money' - suggesting he has not identified with it.

I'm curious about what your core thoughts and beliefs are about earning money? This is a rhetorical question inviting you to self-enquire and contemplate the origin of your own relationship to money but you're in no way obligated to explore yourself in this way as long as you've consciously chosen not to.

[jukai]

I struggle to see this in Eckhart himself. Eckhart's life situation has changed very little. He never says 'wealthy' or 'rich', he simply refers to his wealth as 'the money' - suggesting he has not identified with it.

I should clarify what I said. I don't think Eckhart is a crook or is obsessed/identified with money. I don't think he is a fraud. I simply think that he embellished his story; he added a little icing on top of the cake of his story, in order to make his spiritual teachings seem more "legitimate" or "credible". Ask yourself - which story would more greatly compel you to buy a spirituality book ? A story of sudden and magical awakening that "very few" get to experience ? Or a gradual one, which is what everyone on the planet undergoes ?

Regardless of everything he teaches, he lives on the same Earth that everyone else lives on, conscious or unconscious, enlightened or unenlightened. Which means that he needs to sell books to make money so he can eat. And what is it that all businessmen have in common ? They don't mind adding a little fictional spice to their sales pitch to sell their products. Like "this is the safest car on the planet". That's all I was getting at.

More importantly, I haven't been in any home improvement stores lately but am entirely unaware of any "ego on/off" switches on sale Of course, I mean that I don't believe that any person, no matter how inclined to awaken, can suddenly switch off his/her ego. I don't see it as being possible.

Now, his sudden awakening story didn't impact how credible I think he is; I didn't use that as a gauge. I learned a lot from him, but I just don't buy the "and I woke up and all the s**t suddenly smelled like roses" story.

[NuanceOfSuchness]

Thank you for your reply. There's an implicit narrative in your reply that suggests I have clearly misunderstood the degree of 'feeling' you have around this. We're seemingly in two very different cognitive realms. I'm not suggesting either one is greater than the other, just that we're on different pathways into the moment.

[jukai]

Thank you for your reply. There's an implicit narrative in your reply that suggests I have clearly misunderstood the degree of 'feeling' you have around this. We're seemingly in two very different cognitive realms. I'm not suggesting either one is greater than the other, just that we're on different pathways into the moment.

You did misunderstand me. I don't have any kind of feeling around this. I just have common sense, which tells me to take anything anyone says with a pinch of salt, without blindly believing it. I just think for myself, that's all

If you wanna believe what others tell you, without pause or doubt, go right ahead. It's a free country

[NuanceOfSuchness]

You did misunderstand me. I don't have any kind of feeling around this. I just have common sense, which tells me to take anything anyone says with a pinch of salt, without blindly believing it. I just think for myself, that's all

If you wanna believe what others tell you, without pause or doubt, go right ahead. It's a free country

Belief has created tremendous issues in my life because its very definition is rooted in the absence of fact. Inversely and interestingly, to 'believe' is the same as to 'not believe'. How so? They are both polar extremes of the absence of fact thus generating resistance. There's a middle way, though, in which one remains open-minded. There's less resistance in this spacious vista of open-mindedness in recognising potential. It seems like we have found some common ground in that respect.

[jukai]

Belief has created tremendous issues in my life because its very definition is rooted in the absence of fact. Inversely and interestingly, to 'believe' is the same as to 'not believe'. How so? They are both polar extremes of the absence of fact thus generating resistance. There's a middle way, though, in which one remains open-minded. There's less resistance in this spacious vista of open-mindedness in recognising potential. It seems like we have found some common ground in that respect.

I was simply saying I don't believe that he awakened overnight, because I don't think such an experience falls within the domain of human experience (i.e. it is not possible for humans to experience such a thing). And, I offered one possible reason why he would claim such an experience - i.e., to sell his books.

As for being open-minded, in some cases, that is the best approach. In other cases, it's a waste of time. I don't want to be open minded about 2 + 2 = 5, because I'm quite certain (for practical purposes) that 2 + 2 = 4, so I assume that and move on. And similarly, I'm certain that no human being's ego can completely vanish overnight. It is a gradual process that I don't think ever really gets completed; we awaken (and relapse), in waves, till the day we experience physical death.

Now, if you'd like me to elaborate on why I don't believe in sudden awakening, I'm happy to do so, but I don't think it is needed nor is it going to be helpful.

Do I think Eckhart is a crook ? Absolutely not.

Do I think Eckhart is incredibly wise and has greatly helped millions on the planet, including me ? Absolutely. Or else, I wouldn't be on this site.

Am I going to believe anything and everything Eckhart says, because he is a "spiritual teacher" ? Absolutely not. I like to think for and experience things myself.

[NuanceOfSuchness]

I was simply saying I don't believe that he awakened overnight

Ah, I may have gotten lost at some point. I cannot determine whether it was an overnight experience for him also.

In terms of our dialogue, there's a whole dimension of communication missing once our thoughts have been extrapolated into plain text and I find that my mind has to accommodate that void with conjecture, but also the occasional bouts of untimely or misplaced wisdom, if that's even a thing. I suppose, if it's untimely or misplaced then it can't be wise!

We can never determine the experience of another though. This has been my lesson from you in this dialogue, although it arrived somewhat inadvertently.

[Onceler]

It’s interesting, I too have tremendous respect for Tolle, but at some point I had to walk away from his teachings and examine my core beliefs about enlightenment and awakening. This quitting of the spiritual search, after roughly 30 years, was the most life altering, profound thing I have done. It forced me to unpack what I believe in light of my own experiences not someone else’s beliefs. I did some very basic inquiry, starting at the most elemental level possible, after throwing away dogma and wisdom teachings, Tolle included.

In the process I lost my anxiety about life, depression and other nasty habits along with a desire for awakening, enlightenment or salvation of any kind. To me enlightenment is irrelevant now. Whether someone else is enlightened fast or slowly is even more irrelevant. We hear it all the time until it becomes a tired spiritual trope, but I believe we really do need to forge our own way with our experience filtered through our own nervous systems, not someone else’s.

If you meet the Buddha on the road kill him, right?

[NuanceOfSuchness]

It’s interesting, I too have tremendous respect for Tolle, but at some point I had to walk away from his teachings and examine my core beliefs about enlightenment and awakening. This quitting of the spiritual search, after roughly 30 years, was the most life altering, profound thing I have done. It forced me to unpack what I believe in light of my own experiences not someone else’s beliefs. I did some very basic inquiry, starting at the most elemental level possible, after throwing away dogma and wisdom teachings, Tolle included.

In the process I lost my anxiety about life, depression and other nasty habits along with a desire for awakening, enlightenment or salvation of any kind. To me enlightenment is irrelevant now. Whether someone else is enlightened fast or slowly is even more irrelevant. We hear it all the time until it becomes a tired spiritual trope, but I believe we really do need to forge our own way with our experience filtered through our own nervous systems, not someone else’s.

If you meet the Buddha on the road kill him, right?

Intrigue, yes but tremendous respect is what I don't have for Mr Tolle. The same is true for the Buddha, although I'm not sure I'd kill him because he may use his final departing words and shoot me down in the form of wisdom bullets.

I occasionally slip into this 'goal of enlightenment'. If I'm not careful, I could be reconditioning myself back to the end of the queue. Before I had my temporary wakeful state, which spanned many hours, I questioned even the existence of the enlightened state. In fact, it was something I wasn't even chasing but now, having experienced it, it lives as a concept in my mind. Grh! I can't credit Mr Tolle's direction for this temporary awakening though, as I had only just come across his works.

You're entirely correct! Our own experience will show us.

[jukai]

You're entirely correct! Our own experience will show us.

Yes. And, if you look back at your life prior to you discovering Tolle, you'll realize that it was your struggles that led you to him. Not only led you to him, but also compelled you to listen to what he had to say till you realized that the teaching was true. Tolle didn't emerge magically as an apparition one day and promise to free you from your struggles.

The point is - it is your experiences (your suffering) that really brought about this "awakening" within you, not Tolle and not anyone else. You baked the cake and Tolle poured the icing on top. You slogged your way to the finish line, and Tolle cut the ribbon for you.

[NuanceOfSuchness]

You baked the cake and Tolle poured the icing on top. You slogged your way to the finish line, and Tolle cut the ribbon for you.

That's quite creatively amusing!

Without the risk of sounding all Freudian, what does this symbolism of the "finish line" represent?

[NuanceOfSuchness]

It’s interesting, I too have tremendous respect for Tolle, but at some point I had to walk away from his teachings and examine my core beliefs about enlightenment and awakening. This quitting of the spiritual search, after roughly 30 years, was the most life altering, profound thing I have done. It forced me to unpack what I believe in light of my own experiences not someone else’s beliefs. I did some very basic inquiry, starting at the most elemental level possible, after throwing away dogma and wisdom teachings, Tolle included.

In the process I lost my anxiety about life, depression and other nasty habits along with a desire for awakening, enlightenment or salvation of any kind. To me enlightenment is irrelevant now. Whether someone else is enlightened fast or slowly is even more irrelevant. We hear it all the time until it becomes a tired spiritual trope, but I believe we really do need to forge our own way with our experience filtered through our own nervous systems, not someone else’s.

If you meet the Buddha on the road kill him, right?

Onceler, I'm trying to send you a private message but its not going through.

[jukai]

Onceler, I'm trying to send you a private message but its not going through.

Is the message showing up in the Outbox and staying there ? If so, that simply means that the recipient has not read it yet and you're fine (it will show as sent when the recipient reads it).

It is a bit confusing, I know.