Intellectual understanding...but not experiencing The Now

Talk about anything Tolle-related here.
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Webwanderer
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Post by Webwanderer » Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:06 pm

Thanks dancer.

I thought that was the case, but I try not to be too presumptuous.
From my point of view it seems to arise from "grace".


I like the term "grace". It's like no matter how badly we screw things up in life, Love and all the gifts of Genuine Being forever await us in the open silence of now. Grace is beyond all undermining concepts of worthiness.

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Intellectual Understanding

Post by Satchi » Tue Jun 12, 2007 5:14 pm

Thanks everyone for the input. I will take your advice, Webwanderer, and turn the audio off when space comes in. I can't seem to find that space without the audio, though. ET's voice gets me there. I wish it would happen naturally.

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Dissolution of "unhelpful patterns of thinkng"

Post by Ned » Wed Jun 20, 2007 1:19 am

Julia wrote:
Eckhart tends to assert that mere observation and awareness of unhelpful patterns of thinking are enough to transmute the thought patterns. Well, if a person practices this - observing and realising the pattern, and wishes to stop engaging in the behaviour/thoughts, I am convinced this is often not enough.
She raises something all of us have probably thought about.

She says that she "wishes to stop engaging in the behaviour/thoughts."

I have found that as long as I wish for certain thought patterns or behavior to go away, they stay right with me - because I'm ever so subtlely pushing against them. I'm not even aware of my pushing. I do know, though, that I don't want them to be there. I'm judging them as wrong. I'm feeding them with a negative charge. So in essence, I'm giving them life. On the other hand when I finally give up and no longer care whether those thought patterns (as ugly as they sometimes can be) are there or not, they fall away. Often I'm not even aware that they have disappeared till I reflect on it much later, because I've stopped looking for them to go. As long as they popped up I'd watch them...and that's it.

As we all know, anything that is not part of who we really are, disappears when we're no longer feeding it with attraction or aversion.

As long as we're looking for results instead of innocently watching, nothing happens. We're so convinced that there's something we have to do....but perhaps there isn't.

I've even taken bit of a different approach, too. I've decided to welcome painful, negative thoughts and feelings with open arms when they pop up. I think, "Oh, wow! That's painful ! Well, bring it on; give me your best shot! Let's see what you have. What does that feel like? Hhhmmmm." That takes the starch right out of it, when I've deliberately decided to enjoy feeling the pain. With this approach pain is reduced to sensation. Our fear of pain, our aversion to it, turns it into suffering.

This whole process seems to work throught paradox: there have been times when I give up and realize that I'm a total failure at spirituality, at finding peace - times when I accept myself as a total failure at it - accept myself just the way I am, a total failure - and then peace settles in and I feel just fine being a total failure. All seems well with the world. I let all my perceived "flaws" be just as they are. I let my inability to get rid of thoughts or to be even present, just be as it is....and peace comes.

The power of this process of giving up was first demonstrated to me years ago before I'd ever heard of Eckhart. I was terribly addicted to cigarette smoking. I tried everything I could think of over and over again to quit...but I couldn't do it. One night I was sooo fed up. I said to myself, "Why don't you realize it? You can't do it. You don't have what it takes. You don't have the willpower to stop smoking. So why don't you accept yourself as a smoker and stop torturing yourself? Just smoke and enjoy it." When I woke up the next morning I had no desire for a cigarette ever again. Ever. It never even crossed my mind. And it baffled the heck out of me.

Ned

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Post by kiki » Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:29 am

What a magnificent post, Ned! :D I was going to quote my favorite parts but there were too many - from top to bottom it was first rate - right on the money. And by the way, welcome to the board. Your first post was a thing of beauty. Thanks.
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Post by Webwanderer » Wed Jun 20, 2007 3:50 am

Hello Ned, and welcome. I too enjoyed your very insightful post.

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Post by aanwezigheid » Wed Jun 20, 2007 10:18 am

Very nice story also how you stopped smoking :D . That really points out that acceptance is the only 'easy' route...

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Post by eseward » Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:08 pm

Agree, great post Ned. "What you resist persists."

I have also noticed the wonderful power of giving up. When you get to the end of your rope, let go! :)

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Post by Ned » Wed Jun 20, 2007 6:42 pm

Hey, thanks for the welcome; it's nice to join you all.

You know............One thing that really baffled me about my experience of quitting smoking (actually, I didn't quit. It quit me) was that I violated major principles of The Secret and of positive thinking. I should have crafted and repeated over and over again an affirmation - something like: no, I'm not a failure at quitting. I can do it. I have the power of the universe behind me. Etc. Etc. Instead, I was affirming that I had no willpower and was a failure. The results were fantastic - not the slightest desire pick up a cigarette ever again. At the time I had no understanding of letting go or surrender. I thought I'd witnessed a miracle - the grace of God.

(Sometimes I think that we label an experience as "the grace of God" just because we don't understand the principle behind it)

As we've all noticed, there appear to be degrees of "letting go", of dropping resistance. Sometimes it can be so complete that one reaches enlightenment permanently as in the case of Tolle....or a deeply entrenched nasty habit can fall away instantly.

How to surrender that completely in every moment, in every situation that we face. Hhhmmm. Now there's the rub.

Ned

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Post by weopposedeception » Thu Jun 21, 2007 4:54 am

The founders of AA knew how this works, the first step in all the 12 step programs is "we admitted we were powerless.....".
I was reflecting on the notion that there is a part of me, most likely my essence in fact, that always allows everything. Never has a problem with that.
Now all I have to do is find that part and let it have me.

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Post by Hiren Shah » Sun Jul 22, 2007 3:04 pm

Very interesting discussion. Posts from JD, Kiki and youngraksoo were very interesting.

Vipassana meditation claims that it is a deep surgical operation of the mind and at least in my case it proved to be true as it knocked of a 15 year old insomnia problem. After going through that course, I was able to sleep peacefully without medicine. In our context, Vipasana elaborates in detail the four stages before the reaction takes place- Cognition, Perception, Sensation and reaction. It is at the stage of perception that labelling begins which causes the sensation in which case both thoughts and sensations have to be observed without reaction. The better thing is to nip it in the bud at the cognition stage itself.

Vipassana has described the breath as the bridge between the conscious and the unconscious mind. It says that fixing attention on respiration develops attention of the present moment. This corroborates with what ET says about breathing- he has suggested taking three deep breaths when strong emotions are experienced. Just as some of you have talked about the silence between the words, the pause between the breaths is deemed a "witnessing force" in some forms of meditation. ET himself has suggested breath and body consciousness at several places. I find deep breathng in and out along with watching the whole body at pauses while observing the thoughts dispassionately very helpful. This is so especially while moving.

India's great mystic Osho had said this "You are seeing a tree:you are there, the tree is there but can't you find one thing more? that you are seeing the tree that there is a witness in you which is seeing you see the tree". I try to observe everything with full body consciousness at the pauses(seeing you see the tree). He further elaborated that what you watch is not the point or the obhect is not the point- the quality of observation, the quality of being aware and alert- that is important.

My quality of consciousness is better like this than observing thoughts directly especially when I am on the move.

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Post by eseward » Sun Jul 22, 2007 4:11 pm

Hiren Shah wrote:at least in my case it proved to be true as it knocked of a 15 year old insomnia problem
Excellent. Congrats. :)


Hiren Shah wrote:It is at the stage of perception that labelling begins which causes the sensation in which case both thoughts and sensations have to be observed without reaction.
Exactly. Then the issue fades away for lack of internal, unconscious feeding. The false is seen as false.

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Post by yougarksooo » Sun Jul 22, 2007 4:45 pm

Cognition, Perception, Sensation and reaction.
I'm not familiar with these stages as concepts but this is what I've discovered. Self-realization seems to have to do with full awareness of this "place" inside whether form and formlessness are married. That is a bad choice of words. But these thoughts arise from this formlessness inside and being aware of this place where forms are born from that (is this what you call cognition?), before these forms become feelings or judgments or thoughts, is the unconditioned self. I think it is also referred to by some teachers as choiceless awareness. When the awareness is aware of itself there, it is difficult to take the thoughts and emotions to be who I am (by thoughts I mean the sensations and reactions). The identification with form then does not happen in this unconditioned realization.
"When people ask me who they are or who God is, I smile inside and whisper to the light: there you go again . . . pretending."

Adya

too haht tzay

experiencing the Now...

Post by too haht tzay » Sun Jul 22, 2007 11:13 pm

:)

It's nice to experience the Now without limiting IT to the

intellect.

And youngarksooo,

you mentioned 'self realization seeming to have to do with full

awareness of this place inside whether form and formlessness are

married.'

I can attest that form and the formlessness are married. I experience

it everyday. Since I've read Eckhart's book and realized everything

is alive and conscious, I started experiencing communication with

the wind and with clouds and even the earth talking to me.


And I also hear everyday angels and the Maker communicating

with each other.

Twice I threw myself on the mercy of the Maker's court and

ask if the communication I hear could be less audiable. I can hear their

conversations going on in heaven all day long and they talk about love

all the time. Sometimes, I can't take it!


I said, "If you guys want to talk about money I have no problem because

people talk about money all day down here on earth. But if all you guys

are going to talk about all day is love... than please, do something so I

don't have to hear that all day long!" I told them, "Nobody wants to

talk about love in this place. I'm not going to make it if I have to hear

you guys talking about love all day long!"


So guess what? I can still hear the angels and the Maker as they hold

conversations all day, but now it's turned down and I can function

in my daily day again.


So, yeah youngarksooo.

There is a marriage inside...a place of full awareness and self-

realization where the form and formless are married.


:)

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Post by OnlyNow » Sun Jul 22, 2007 11:30 pm

Hi ned, welcome

good post
..........As long as we're looking for results instead of innocently watching, nothing happens. We're so convinced that there's something we have to do....but perhaps there isn't...........
So true

....reminds me of a saying I found in one of my books on Buddhism

"Do nothing and everything is done"
When the Pupil is ready the Master appears

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Post by Hiren Shah » Mon Jul 23, 2007 4:45 pm

That is a bad choice of words. But these thoughts arise from this formlessness inside and being aware of this place where forms are born from that (is this what you call cognition?)
Very interesting expression from yougraksoo.-formlessness. One can all it silence, stillness. ET has explained it very well” What a liberation to see that the voice in the head is not who I am. Who I am then? The one who sees that. The awareness that is prior to the thought, the space in which the thought- or the emotion or sense perception happens”

Well in that formlessness or space, If you watch the thought or external objects with the whole body( an expression which ET has used), the chattering, unobserved mind quiets considerably and you(awareness) can watch the watcher(body) watch the outside world or the unobserved mind.

It’s like what Osho says” You cannot take darkness out of a room. You have to bring light in”. It could be pure awareness or through the body in the formlessness or space.

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