Intellectual understanding...but not experiencing The Now

Talk about anything Tolle-related here.
eseward
Posts: 830
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 7:27 pm
Location: New York
Contact:

Post by eseward » Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:37 pm

kiki wrote:PON leads to the nondual state, and in this there is no enemy in opposition to you because the you that has been identified with drops away.
Frits, in forums like these, one reads a lot about "non-duality". IMO this can sometimes be confusing. I would like to mention that IMO the above is a very good definition of non-duality.

When you are identified with a certain mental position (belief/attitude/viewpoint), you automatically create enemies (opposition). This appears to be a feature of how the identified mind works. As the intensity of the identification (attitude) increases, so does the opposition. So we do create our own enemies, and not realizing that we're doing it doesn't change anything for the better.

When we give up our mental positions, by giving up our identification with them, our opposition fades away. Life gets easier and becomes better instead of being a struggle to "prove ourselves right".

As you give up your positions/identifications/opinions about how things should be, you don't actually disappear of course. What disappears is your suffering resulting from believing things about your nature that were never true; what disappears is what was always false. The teachers tell us that what is true can never disappear.

eseward
Posts: 830
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 7:27 pm
Location: New York
Contact:

Post by eseward » Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:41 pm

yougarksooo wrote:Remember: This moment is the only point of access to being.
And therefore to contentment, joy, connectedness, the Kingdom within. Always an important reminder. :)
yougarksooo wrote:Watch any thought or emotion that says otherwise. :)

User avatar
yougarksooo
Posts: 338
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 7:14 pm
Location: Indiana

Post by yougarksooo » Thu Apr 12, 2007 5:15 pm

When you are identified with a certain mental position (belief/attitude/viewpoint), you automatically create enemies (opposition). This appears to be a feature of how the identified mind works. As the intensity of the identification (attitude) increases, so does the opposition. So we do create our own enemies, and not realizing that we're doing it doesn't change anything for the better.
Thanks for a beautiful post Kiki. Through the recognition of what you've said, one can realize that all suffering is self-created. Until that realization, life remained a struggle for me. I kept thinking that these damn people and events are causing me so much difficulty. "Why don't they see I"m right." "Why don't they act right." The source of my pain was seen mistakenly to be "out there" somewhere. :)

Once I saw the structure of the unconscious mind, and how it worked, the truth is hard to ignore. It's the deeper truth that is seen once we become present, the truth beyond all those "little surface truths" we once argued about, made enemies out of, turned into mental positions, created our own suffering etc etc etc. Mind boggling. I have sat in my chair in my living room before crying because I see all the suffering that humans bring on themselves. It wasn't pity. Just seeing and feeling all that, knowing there is another way. They were tears of joyful awareness mixed with heartfelt compassion, to put words to it.

What joy to know that suffering is a self-created phantom. Yes, of course Eseward---the only access to the Kingdom, to joy.
"When people ask me who they are or who God is, I smile inside and whisper to the light: there you go again . . . pretending."

Adya

User avatar
kiki
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 4586
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2004 8:55 pm
Location: Wherever "here" happens to be

Post by kiki » Thu Apr 12, 2007 7:01 pm

yougarksoo, I'll redirect your thanks to eseward, author of what you quoted. :wink: But I agree that the quote was very good and add my thanks to yours.

User avatar
yougarksooo
Posts: 338
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 7:14 pm
Location: Indiana

Post by yougarksooo » Fri Apr 13, 2007 12:16 am

My mistake, beautiful statements Eseward. Thanks Kiki.
"When people ask me who they are or who God is, I smile inside and whisper to the light: there you go again . . . pretending."

Adya

eseward
Posts: 830
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 7:27 pm
Location: New York
Contact:

Post by eseward » Fri Apr 13, 2007 12:20 am

You folks are most kind as always. :)

User avatar
NoordZee
Posts: 75
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 7:18 am
Location: Dandenongs, Australia

Eckhart Tolle Discussion

Post by NoordZee » Fri Apr 13, 2007 3:57 am

Good Morning Everybody,

My thanks go out to eseward, Webwanderer, kiki, and yougarksooo. They are wonderful comments, which make me realise how little I know about this subject.
IMO this can sometimes be confusing. I would like to mention that IMO the above is a very good definition of non-duality.
Eseward, pardon my ignorance here, what does IMO mean?

I find it rather hard to come to grips with the subject at this stage. However, from your comments, I understand that you should never identify with a mental position such as belief, viewpoint, or attitude. I further understand that identification with these things helps kick in the law of polarities.
The possession or manifestation of two opposing attributes, tendencies, or principles.
In other words, when you are in a Natural State (Thank you Webwanderer), you do not judge anything and there are no opposites. This is why Tolle says that happiness arises from identifying with your mind, whereas pure joy without any opposites arises from a state of Being (Natural State).

Kiki wrote:
Trying to eliminate thought makes thought into an enemy, and when that happens you will lose the battle.
You are right! I should accept the moment for what it is without judgment and "watch" instead these very destructive thoughts, which are replete in my mind. Oh boy, I have so much to learn and started so late in life trying to do that :cry:

Yougarksooo wrote:
Through the recognition of what you've said, one can realize that all suffering is self-created. Until that realization, life remained a struggle for me. I kept thinking that these damn people and events are causing me so much difficulty. "Why don't they see I"m right." "Why don't they act right." The source of my pain was seen mistakenly to be "out there" somewhere. Smile
You have no idea how much I can identify (to coin a phrase :)) with this. To take this one step further, the "blame game" can be seen everywhere. Many people I know and have problems invariably blame an outside cause for their woes!

I am genuinely grateful for the helpful comments that I have received so far and hope to continue to learn much more so that I can develop a sound understanding of Tolle's teachings. Understanding, of course is not enough. I consider it more important to apply everything I learn for my own benefit and eventually for the benefit of others!

Best regards to all forum members
Frits
"Veritas vos liberabit"

User avatar
kiki
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 4586
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2004 8:55 pm
Location: Wherever "here" happens to be

Post by kiki » Fri Apr 13, 2007 4:23 am

Nordzee wrote:I understand that you should never identify with a mental position such as belief, viewpoint, or attitude. I further understand that identification with these things helps kick in the law of polarities.
Yes, that's right. When there is some sort of clinging to a position then that is the telltale signal that ego is present, and where there is ego there also will be found polarity. When there is the spotting of this tendency of clinging/identification with a belief, viewpoint, or attitude there is also the opportunity to relax back into the natural state. Or you can inquire, "Who is it that believes...?", which then directs awareness back onto itself.
In other words, when you are in a Natural State (Thank you Webwanderer), you do not judge anything and there are no opposites.
Yes. While in the natural state there is no mechanism (ego) present which judges, there is no entity (ego) which sets itself apart from anything else.
This is why Tolle says that happiness arises from identifying with your mind, whereas pure joy without any opposites arises from a state of Being (Natural State).
Unconditional happiness is the hallmark of the natural state of awareness. This sort of happiness is not a giddy sort of mental state but more of a contentment/peace/stillness that is always there. Happiness which comes and goes and depends on specific circumstances derives from ego/mind.
I am genuinely grateful for the helpful comments that I have received so far and hope to continue to learn much more so that I can develop a sound understanding of Tolle's teachings.
Glad to have you here.

eseward
Posts: 830
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 7:27 pm
Location: New York
Contact:

Post by eseward » Fri Apr 13, 2007 8:19 am

kiki wrote:Glad to have you here.
Great stuff as always, kiki. And I second the above.

NoordZee, you're clearly understandng a lot of this stuff. Now as you apply it experientially in your life you should find conflict, suffering and any feelings of isolation beginning to lessen.

As far as which method to use to apply these teachings, try those suggested (by Eckhart and folks here), find what works for you and do that.

BTW (By The Way), IMO = In My Opinion. :)

User avatar
NoordZee
Posts: 75
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 7:18 am
Location: Dandenongs, Australia

Eckhart Tolle Discussion

Post by NoordZee » Sun Apr 15, 2007 3:05 am

Kiki, and eseward,

Thank you for your further input. You will be seeing my posts appearing in a number of places. However, in the end, I really want to come to grips with the practical aspects of Eckhart Tolle's teachings. Believe me, I need this!

Regards
Frits
"Veritas vos liberabit"

User avatar
Nebula
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2007 1:25 am
Location: England

Re: Intellectual understanding...but not experie

Post by Nebula » Tue Apr 24, 2007 8:29 am

JD wrote:
It took a while to realize that I myself was giving them that power by collapsing into a state of gibbering terror whenever they put in an appearance. :D

In reality, even the most powerful of these thought-complexes proved to be no more than an empty phantasm when I was able to observe it dispassionately while remaining calm and focused.

This was equally true whether the complex was centred around a wholly irrational fear or based on the anticipation of some future event or circumstance that might really have occurred in my life.

Every experience of de-energizing these complexes by calm observation proved the truth of President Roosevelt's wise remark that: "we have nothing to fear but fear itself".

And fear is nothing more than energy vibrating at a certain frequency. All the rest is fantasy added by the mind.

How then, to observe these complexes without adding the fantasy and getting sucked into a stream of negative thoughts?

Like you, I found this very difficult until I began to concentrate not on any particular thoughts, but instead focused my awareness on the sensations that the thought-complex generated in my physical body.

Every powerful thought-complex generates tangible feelings in the physical body. When it arises, if you move your awareness into your body, you'll become conscious of certain unmistakeable sensations.

It may be that you'll feel palpitations in your chest or stomach.

Or perhaps it will manifest as heat in a particular part of your body.

Observe the sensation calmly and without running a mental commentary on what you're experiencing (which is merely employing the mind to think about the sensation). The idea here is to observe from the perspective of pure awareness - a state which precedes the arising of conditoned thought.

When you can manage this for a while, you'll find that the intensity of the sensations will diminish and with them the compulsion to engage in an orgy of negative fantasizing.

There are two important side-effects of this practise.

Firstly, it will train you in the invaluable skill of concentration (not in the sense of straining to concentrate on anything, but in the sense of accustoming your wayward mind to repeatedly return to a particular sensation).

This skill is of great value when it comes to de-enegizing thought-forms.

Secondly, and even more importantly, the very act of practising this concentration will slow your mind down considerably.

You will create space around your thoughts.

That means it will become much easier to identify the moment when a problematic thought-complex arises and take appropriate action before getting tricked into feeding it with a torrent of negative thoughts.

Sure, it takes practice, but nothing is more important when it comes to ending cruel and wholly unnecessary suffering (unnecessary, because it's ultimately self-inflicted).

There's a knack to it - like riding a bicycle.

Once you've learned it, you don't forget.

At first you can practice deliberately invoking the thought-complex by sitting calmly and thinking of a common trigger
(being careful to immediately switch to the observation of your bodily sensations and not to continue with the line of thought).

That way you have time to prepare yourself.

And remember that these thought-complexes are not your enemies.

They're just energy-forms that you yourself created in the past obeying the laws of their own nature.

I once thought them a curse.

Now I know that they can be a great blessing.

They forced me to wake up and find a way beyond suffering to a peace that I never imagined was possible for me.

They also made sure I stayed conscious and didn't get complacent.

Because they return again and again - often when you're least expecting them.

But that, as I said, is ultimately a blessing because as ET says, it's often those who suffer the most pain who dissolve their pain-body the fastest.

Now, the very thought-complexes that used to terrify me on a regular basis have almost no power left at all. I see them coming a mile off and laugh to myself. Then they vanish again, mere shadows of the terrible demons that they once were, or seemed to me. :D

Acquiring this skill is the most worthwhile thing I've ever done.

I believe that you'll feel the same when you begin to experience successs, as I'm sure you will.

Good luck! :)
Hi,
again, thanks for all the comments, i'm trying them all.
Still finding the whole process almost impossible (but yet still think this is the most likely approach to work that i've come across)
Basically i'm trying to observe the thoughts and observe the bodily sensations.
But I seem to spend a lot of time thinking thoughts that are designed to make me feel anxious/guilty/'bad'.
Sometimes i'll be busy doing something, and will be feeling ok, but then i remember - "oh yeah, here's loads of thoughts that are gonna consume you, you have to think about them, then feel utterly anxious/guilty/bad, and then try and rationalise your way out of them"
Even writing about it now makes me feel anxious.
So how not to have a mental commentary to the thoughts?
When I first read the chapter entititled "you are not your mind" I was so relieved, at last i'd found an 'answer' to all this crap.
"If it is the quality of your consciousness at this moment that determines the future, then what is it that determines the quality of your consciousness? Your degree of presence"

eseward
Posts: 830
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 7:27 pm
Location: New York
Contact:

Re: Intellectual understanding...but not experie

Post by eseward » Tue Apr 24, 2007 12:25 pm

julia_whirly wrote:Basically i'm trying to observe the thoughts and observe the bodily sensations. But I seem to spend a lot of time thinking thoughts that are designed to make me feel anxious/guilty/'bad'.
Yes, this is the apparent nature of the ego-self (negative). Many teachers have mentioned this negative nature.

julia_whirly wrote:Sometimes i'll be busy doing something, and will be feeling ok, but then i remember - "oh yeah, here's loads of thoughts that are gonna consume you, you have to think about them, then feel utterly anxious/guilty/bad, and then try and rationalise your way out of them". So how not to have a mental commentary to the thoughts?
Easiest thing I know, julia_whirly, is to include your commentary in the stream of thoughts that you are observing. Your negative commentary is part of the ego-self as much as any other thought/feeling.

eseward
Posts: 830
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 7:27 pm
Location: New York
Contact:

Post by eseward » Tue Apr 24, 2007 12:57 pm

And just a note to say JD, that was an awesome post; clearly spoken from direct personal experience. Great stuff.

User avatar
yougarksooo
Posts: 338
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 7:14 pm
Location: Indiana

Post by yougarksooo » Wed Apr 25, 2007 1:10 am

I just reread this thread. There is a lot of love here and helpful suggestions. What I think is neat about Tolle's teaching's in his books is that he doesn't discuss nonduality that much, at least using that term. My hunch is that he knows that being present brings about a state of nonduality automatically, without the need (or burden) of having to understand the concept mentally. Eseward, JD and Kiki and others who have posted above really shined a light on nonduality and the awakened state. Really good stuff. Reading it sometimes makes the light inside me shine even brighter. It wakes up whatever grogginess is there from a day at work.
"When people ask me who they are or who God is, I smile inside and whisper to the light: there you go again . . . pretending."

Adya

User avatar
NoordZee
Posts: 75
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 7:18 am
Location: Dandenongs, Australia

Intellectual Understanding...but not experiencing the Now

Post by NoordZee » Thu Apr 26, 2007 8:03 am

Good Afternoon,

JD wrote:
Or perhaps it will manifest as heat in a particular part of your body
This is something I experience whenever my thoughts take over. Once a negative thought 'hits' me, it is almost impossible for me to get rid of this thought. Most of my negative thoughts relate to nasty things that might happen in the future for no good reason at all. I often experience these thoughts as a very hot flush in my face and my heart speeds up. Intellectually, I know that these thoughts are nonsense but I cannot, at this stage, stop these thoughts.

No matter how often I read the very good comments on this site, these terrible thoughts keep on coming. However, when I walk into the forest every morning for a 40-minute walk, I succeed in paying attention to the Wallabies, various kinds of birds such as the Lyrebird, and the beauty of nature itself. During these 40 minutes, I am virtually at peace. Presumably, I am then in the Now or close to it.

I do need a lot of help to enable me to disidentify myself from my Mind.

Regards to all forum members

Frits
Last edited by NoordZee on Fri Apr 27, 2007 3:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Veritas vos liberabit"

Post Reply