Reality?

Talk about anything Tolle-related here.
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Post by phil » Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:43 pm

Nice post Yo,
yougarksooo wrote:I agree that there are a lot of words on here. But if using words for each other helps us to guide each other to peace and being (or God, for those who prefer that word), great!!!!


I'm on this kick this week, sorry, please ignore me and I'll just type away merrily to myself if that works best.

Do you ever wonder about the people we are guiding away from peace with all these words?

I wonder sometimes about the visitors to this forum we never hear from.

They heard of Tolle somehow, do a Google search, and wind up here. They find a lot of words and concepts that strike them as strange, foreign and bizarre, and so they click away, dropping the subject of peace, and heading back to TV.

We could say, they aren't ready for peace.

Or we could say, we aren't ready to share peace with those outside of our little circle.

We can only do something about one of these.

Suppose we could poll every English speaking person, and ask them whether the words we use here sound relevant to their life.

What percent would say yes, and what percent would say no?

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Post by yougarksooo » Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:56 pm

Suppose we could poll every English speaking person, and ask them whether the words we use here sound relevant to their life.

What percent would say yes, and what percent would say no?
Don't know. But the truth is not in the words. The word "surrender" is not surrender. I've heard you pose this question in other forums. Instead of presenting the "problem" find a solution. To me the solution is clear. I use different words to point to the formless depending on who I'm around. For my Christian brother, I use "God." For my 12 step friends, I say "just for today" which is an NA mantra.

Tolle brought some new terms into his books (or borrowed some) which did not contain some of the problems for people as the word "God" does, for example. I don't blame him. His whole point seems to be, "FORGET THE WORDS." The truth is not in it. The most they can do is point. There is also the possibility that a listener is just not ready to move beyond the incessant stream of thought in his own head.

For years, I listened in 12 step meeting to people conceptualizing about surrender, humility etc. Then I started using Tolle's tools and realized the conceptualization is part of the thing that keeps us asleep. I woke up out of that dream. So, that must be kept in mind when we are using concepts (words) on here. They can only point to waking up, to becoming present, to being....to God, if you will. They aren't those "things."

Make up new words, or use familiar terms that people can understand. Talk to Weichen. He is always attempting to put this into a form to reach more people. That is great. I am not interested in keeping others from experiencing peace.
"When people ask me who they are or who God is, I smile inside and whisper to the light: there you go again . . . pretending."

Adya

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Post by phil » Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:46 pm

yougarksooo wrote:His whole point seems to be, "FORGET THE WORDS." The truth is not in it.
Yes, forget the words, his whole point. Mine too.

I am agreeing with Tolle's advice.

Why do we, and Tolle, keep on proclaiming "FORGET THE WORDS!" and then continue weaving ever more obscure, exotic and elaborate concepts?

For us, it's great. We are all armchair philosophers here, so lots of words and concepts, the fancier the better, wonderful. I love it, you love it, no problem. If it works for someone, like you say, great. Agreed.

But yes Yo, it is a "problem" because the language and concepts that hopefully work for our little club, does not work for most people.

It's alienates them instead.

Is our suffering a problem? If yes, can we then safely label the suffering of others a problem too? Can we drop the quotes from "problem" now?

A solution? Here's a try.

Do you know how they teach meditation to heart patients in some hospitals? The people who teach in these settings go out of their way to remove all philosophical content from this meditation instruction.

Why?

Because they don't want to put off any of their patients from the treatment they seriously need.

These teachers understand that philosophical content of any kind will offend someone, and then that someone won't be open to the treatment.

So these teachers teach meditation. Period. They look for the shortest path to silence, and don't let a bunch of words and concepts obstruct the path.

These teachers care more about their patients needs, than they do their own philosophical orientation.

One theory is that this method of sharing silence is much more direct, much simpler, and much more universally useful than everything we are discussing here.

I am just observing teachers beyond our little club, and asking, are they on to something?

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Post by Webwanderer » Sat Feb 24, 2007 11:33 pm

Phil Wrote:
But yes Yo, it is a "problem" because the language and concepts that hopefully work for our little club, does not work for most people.

It's alienates them instead.
It is true that many readers of this forum may become alienated from what they read here. So what? If we are believers in our own “arm chair philosophy” then we know there are no separate beings out there. There are only perspectives of the One Being. All “others” are merely the appearance of others and have no separate reality to be alienated in.

In the Great Adventure of Life, all these apparent separate beings have their own unique travels and experiences that will ultimately motivate them to the Great Remembrance. Concern over whether or not they obtain fuel for that remembrance here or elsewhere is of little relevance. Some will prosper here, others will find another way.

In general, those who give their best here to assist others do more to regain their own freedom than they do in creating any real change in some “other”. Those efforts of assistance, like Tolle’s, or Buddha’s, or Jesus’, are only pointers, to be used or discarded, at the whim of the one who reads them.

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Post by eseward » Sun Feb 25, 2007 1:36 am

Another nice post IMO, Webwanderer.

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Post by phil » Sun Feb 25, 2007 2:39 am

Whoops, edited my own post out of the world of form!
Last edited by phil on Sun Feb 25, 2007 4:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by aanwezigheid » Sun Feb 25, 2007 12:40 pm

Tin Soul wrote:Their song 'I Hate Everything About You' is a good example of what I'm talking about. I have found that, at least for awhile, I need to give up Three Days Grace, so that I don't descend back into the spiral.
So, while we shouldn't actively fight our pain body, we should also not try to feed it. It's like when an alcoholic is first getting sober. They might need to cut off some friendships with people who will just try to get them back into drinking.
I thought that watching and hearing movies, music and stuff like that was "allowed" as long as you are aware of the feelings, thoughts,... are floating through you when you are listening, watching them? This way you don't take these feelings personal, but then again, why should you listen to music then :D ?

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Post by Webwanderer » Sun Feb 25, 2007 4:47 pm

Good grief Phil. I’m used to you creating strawmen to slay, but you’ve got a whole army of them here. I sometimes wonder about your motivation. What are you trying to accomplish with all this misdirection and spin? It's no wonder some get alienated.

Often newbies are in a delicate state when they first find this site. How many have complained of a history of severe depression. Some are ready to work through those beliefs that anchor them in depression, some are not. Still others are just ripe for the next step in clarity. In any case you cannot force enlightenment on another.

Phil Wrote:
Why is the suffering of these others unimportant, but our own suffering so important that we have a forum dedicated to discussing it constantly?

It seems either both we and others would be important, or neither would be important.
Who said their suffeing was unimportant? That's an argument with a strawman. I am saying it's unimportant where someone gets their pointers, and there are far better places to get pointers than here. There are many who are not interested in the type of dialog that occurs here. One look at some of the mental noise that is often presented here may well be enough to avoid the bookmark button.
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If we are believers in our own “arm chair philosophy” then we know there are no separate beings out there. There are only perspectives of the One Being.


Ok, no others. If there are no separate beings, then there is no need for teachings of any kind. No need for Tolle, no need for this forum, all irrelevant.
Do you believe there are actual separate beings out there? Have you read any of Eckhart Tolle's books? I recommend them. Don't get caught believing them though; look for your Self. (Hint: you will find the Self in the looking)

You’re whole post, and many others that you have written, presume that every writer here must be all things to all people. This is a forum for dialog, not the church of univesal awakening.

How many of these suffering souls that you care about have you saved? I suspect no more than I have. How many souls did Jesus save? Or Tolle? Or Siddhartha? I think maybe at best one each. The best anyone can do for another on a forum such as this, or in satsang, is to offer inspiration, dialog and pointers. It is up to the reader to choose what, when and where to apply such offerings.

It is my opinion that those who dialog here often, and make a genuine effort to fine tune their posts to their utmost clarity, do more to recall their own essential awareness than to save some other. This forum provides an opportunity to work through our own encumbering beliefs and find clarity in our own experience. Successful liberation is directly related to that genuiness of that effort.

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Post by phil » Sun Feb 25, 2007 4:57 pm

Why is the prospect of a process that skips over teachings, and goes straight to the experience of silence, so controversial here?

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Post by eseward » Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:41 pm

Excellent post IMO, Webwanderer. Thanks for taking the time and for doing all that typing. :wink:

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Post by phil » Sun Feb 25, 2007 6:00 pm

Webwanderer wrote:You’re whole post, and many others that you have written, presume that every writer here must be all things to all people.
I'm not asking that anybody be all things to all people. Write whatever you are inspired to write, I'll do the same.

There are thousands of posts here analyzing and sharing Tolle's teachings to the 99th degree. Plenty for everybody already.

So what's the problem with trying to expand one little tiny corner of this conversation beyond elaborate conceptual teachings, to a more direct path to silence?

If it's silence we want, a simple meditation practise can deliver it. A fact worth considering?

Somebody showed us how to watch our breathing patiently until our thoughts slow, and maybe sometimes stop. We've been to that place once, and thus know how to get there again.

So, what else is needed?

If we sweep aside all the elaborate teachings, and years of endlessly analyzing concepts, we immediately come face to face with a simple moment centered decision.

Be silent, or do something else?

Without the teachings, there is nothing else to do. There is no plan, no progress, no future destination, nothing to analyze, understand, see, achieve or become.

There is only a simple decision. Choose silence and peace, or choose something else.

I'm standing in my kitchen. I open the door to the refrigerator, and grab an apple. Or I don't. I'm hungry, or I'm not. That's all there is to it.

When we're hungry for food, we keep it very simple.

When we're hungry for peace, it could be equally simple.

Our stomach requests food. Our minds request a rest. Both are biological processes that any person on earth can learn to manage.

Please note how we aren't looking for a permanent (ie. future trip) solution to hunger. Thus the solution is simple. When hungry, eat.

If we give up the search for a permanent solution to colliding thoughts, the solution can be equally simple. When thinking too much, slow the thinking down, take a rest.
Webwanderer wrote:This is a forum for dialog, not the church of univesal awakening.
Exactly WW, this forum is for dialog, and I am dialoging.

If the subject here is silence, I'm on topic. If the subject is Tolle, I'm not.

Thanks for the conversation!

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Post by Webwanderer » Sun Feb 25, 2007 7:13 pm

Phil

I take no issue with honest dialog. That is after all the point of this forum. I do take issue with mischaracterization and sophistry expressed in such a way as to remind one of a high school debating class. If you have opinions on meditation as a means to clarity, then make your case on the depth of your own understanding. I have no doubt some will find it useful. But misrepresentation of another’s post is likely to turn a dialog into a debate that helps no one.

Again, it is my opinion, based on my own experience that increased clarity may be gained by a genuine effort to define life as we see it. It is by silence, by whatever means is successful in recognizing that silence, that the understanding of life arises for which we are attempting to define.

Of course it is impossible to experience life in words, but that is not the point. It is the dynamic interchange between silence and expression that brings clarity to form. If someone reading these words profits by them in their own understanding, then so much the better.

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Post by Tin Soul » Mon Feb 26, 2007 1:35 am

aanwezigheid wrote:I thought that watching and hearing movies, music and stuff like that was "allowed" as long as you are aware of the feelings, thoughts,... are floating through you when you are listening, watching them? This way you don't take these feelings personal, but then again, why should you listen to music then :D ?
Point well taken-- I've always thought music, and all real art, was about feelings.
On a strictly personal level, because I know I am a newbie and I bow to those of you with more time and greater vision (I'm not being sarcastic, I really feel that way)-- to this newbie it seems that there might be a difference between what is allowed, and what is advisable. Sure, I can continue to wallow in melancholic depression (forgive the redundancy) because it just feels so damned good! Or I can recognize that this is my pain body, have compassion for my pain body and love it as if it were my retarded child that didn't know any better. It really can't do anything else, it's my pain body, so I must forgive it. But I don't have to let it have access to the matches and gasoline.

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Post by eseward » Mon Feb 26, 2007 1:46 am

Tin Soul wrote:Sure, I can continue to wallow in melancholic depression (forgive the redundancy) because it just feels so damned good!
Eckhart does mention this in "A New Earth", that we won't want to disidentify from our pain; we are strangely (masochistically) attached to it; we even think we're justified in having it! :D

And Vernon Howard mentions again and again our own resistance to what can set us free.

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Post by Tin Soul » Mon Feb 26, 2007 2:01 am

eseward wrote:...Vernon Howard mentions again and again our own resistance to what can set us free...
I have to check out Vernon Howard-- Thanks.

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