Challenging Eckhart: Practice is necessary, as is clock time

Talk about anything Tolle-related here.
User avatar
yougarksooo
Posts: 338
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 7:14 pm
Location: Indiana

Post by yougarksooo » Mon Jun 25, 2007 4:49 pm

what a joke we play on ourselves. So, enjoy your practice and then laugh at yourself when the joke is revealed.
Well said. :lol:
"When people ask me who they are or who God is, I smile inside and whisper to the light: there you go again . . . pretending."

Adya

prospero
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2005 7:51 pm

Post by prospero » Mon Jun 25, 2007 10:03 pm

"Although Union with the Beloved
Is never given as a reward for one's efforts,
Strive, O heart, as much as you are able"

Sufi poet, Hafiz
the unexamined life is not worth living
the unlived life is not worth examining

Ives
Posts: 314
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:52 pm
Location: Tuscany, Italy

Post by Ives » Tue Jun 26, 2007 1:09 pm

Prospero’s post above reminds me of a famous interchange between two enlightened Sufi masters.

Salih of Qazwin taught his disciples:
Whoever knocks at the door continually, it will be opened to him.

Rubiya, hearing him one day, said:
How long will you say, It will be opened?
The door has never been shut.


(In other words, it depends on the individual. It is we who are shut at the beginning of discovering a spiritual approach to life. Then comes the moment in which there is just pure openness).

User avatar
kiki
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 4591
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2004 8:55 pm
Location: Wherever "here" happens to be

Post by kiki » Tue Jun 26, 2007 3:46 pm

Thanks for that, Ives.

Vpopov81
Posts: 185
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2006 1:41 am
Contact:

Post by Vpopov81 » Tue Jun 26, 2007 5:21 pm

Honestly I have realized that whether you look at it as practice or not is noothing but semantics. Being present in your daily life all the time, do you want to look at that as practice? If you choose to sit down and be present 20 minutes a day twice a day (meditation) thats a practice, but if you are making this your predominant state of consciousness whether you choose to look at it as a practice or not is just words honestly.

Its easy to see why Krishnamurti referred to the state of Prsence as "Meditation". And we would always clarify that he wasnt referring to the kind of meditation as practice and since we was such a poor communicator (my opinion) he was very hard to understand. We was basically saying be present all the time not just 20 minutes a day twice a day. Once that becomes your predominant state and it is your resting state can it be called a practice?

eseward
Posts: 830
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 7:27 pm
Location: New York
Contact:

Post by eseward » Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:41 pm

Good point IMO, Victor. I'm with you on that.

User avatar
JD
Posts: 118
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 11:35 pm

Post by JD » Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:44 pm

Ives wrote: The door has never been shut.
No, but as Holman Hunt's allegorical painting depicts, in most of us the door is obscured and overgrown with weeds:

Image

User avatar
Webwanderer
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 6827
Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 12:03 am

Post by Webwanderer » Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:19 pm

Vpopov81 wrote:Honestly I have realized that whether you look at it as practice or not is noothing but semantics. Being present in your daily life all the time, do you want to look at that as practice? If you choose to sit down and be present 20 minutes a day twice a day (meditation) thats a practice,
Good post Vpop.

I agree we can get caught up in semantics. Both practice and living in the Natural State have merrit. 20 minutes, twice a day, spent focusing on clear, thought free, awareness helps to create the familiarity of presence that, when daily distractions take their toll, make return to clearity more accessible.

I routinely find myselt slipping into thought stories throughout my day, but they are no longer any concern, as recognition of what is happening and return to presence is now quite simple. There is no emotion, no judgment for loosing presence, just an "oh, mind story in action". I release the story and make an easy shift back to presence, no big deal.

Ives
Posts: 314
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:52 pm
Location: Tuscany, Italy

Post by Ives » Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:23 am

JD wrote: ... in most of us the door is obscured and overgrown with weeds
Exactly my point, JD.

The spiritual advice that tells you ‘The door has never been shut’ is for highly advanced practitioners.

And I think this is where the initial frustration expressed by Innerhike comes in. It is practically useless saying to a beginner (and that includes most of us): ‘You have already arrived, you don't need to change anything’.
A truly great teacher comes down from his or her enlightened state and gives practical advice suitable for an individual at a particular level.

For those who have “gotten good” at the techniques, another kind of push may be needed, sort of like a Zen koan. To trip the mind and dissolve it.

Nice painting, by the way. :)

User avatar
kiki
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 4591
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2004 8:55 pm
Location: Wherever "here" happens to be

Post by kiki » Wed Jun 27, 2007 1:13 pm

Ives wrote:A truly great teacher comes down from his or her enlightened state and gives practical advice suitable for an individual at a particular level.
This is what Ramana Maharshi did. He advised people depending upon where they were. He knew that most wouldn't "get" the "not having to do anything" approach even though it is true, so he would tell some people to do this or that particular thing. For those who were "ripe" those sort of practices were no longer necessary, and so would give his most direct teaching.

Good post, Ives -

Finbarr
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2007 10:47 pm
Location: deep underground...

Post by Finbarr » Wed Jun 27, 2007 1:22 pm

I think practical practice in daily life (character/moral effort, more positive (right) thinking, meditation, practicing the presence, humility/impersonality etc) ripens us for the Eckhart Tolle teachings. We can then be harvested by the present! Basically our true nature IS the state that Eckhart Tolle describes. Its just a question of clearing away the clouds of our delusion/negative ego. But either way, clear blue skies and perfect sunshine remain ever above our gloomy thunderheads...

User avatar
JD
Posts: 118
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 11:35 pm

Post by JD » Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:03 pm

JD wrote: ... in most of us the door is obscured and overgrown with weeds
Exactly my point, JD.
Yes, I was agreeing with you. :)
A truly great teacher comes down from his or her enlightened state and gives practical advice suitable for an individual at a particular level.
Jesus said to his disciples, "I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand".

Matthew 13:11-17
Nice painting, by the way. :)
It's a doorway in every sense of the word - a great icon of spiritual power and presence.

The original's in the chapel of a college near my house and I've experienced many extraordinary states of consciousness sitting before it in contemplation.

And Holman Hunt's studies of the lamp held by Christ are in the print room of the Ashmolean Museum.

It's an eerie feeling to slip on the white gloves they make you wear and hold the fragile paper knowing that H.H. held it over 150 years ago when he was working out the design of this great masterpiece.

User avatar
yougarksooo
Posts: 338
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 7:14 pm
Location: Indiana

Post by yougarksooo » Wed Jun 27, 2007 4:29 pm

This is what Ramana Maharshi did. He advised people depending upon where they were. He knew that most wouldn't "get" the "not having to do anything" approach even though it is true, so he would tell some people to do this or that particular thing. For those who were "ripe" those sort of practices were no longer necessary, and so would give his most direct teaching.
Thanks Kiki.

Might that explain the following?
Jesus said to his disciples, "I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand".

Matthew 13:11-17
"When people ask me who they are or who God is, I smile inside and whisper to the light: there you go again . . . pretending."

Adya

User avatar
tikey
Posts: 345
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:40 pm
Location: Warsaw, Poland, Middle East Europe

Re: Challenging Eckhart: Practice is necessary, as is clock time

Post by tikey » Fri Nov 30, 2007 1:05 am

innerhike wrote: The Buddha did not come to enlightenment suddenly without practice.
Once I was training swimming. And just before the training before the moment I could go enter to the water I was waiting. I stopped. And I was
thinking "oh my god, the water is cold, I'll never get there". And my hesitation took a lot of time. But then a jump came. And it only took a second.
And I was in the water :)

It somehow reminded me that just "entering the water"(the jump) takes only a second, but hesitation which was before the jump took long...
Im just a cloudless sky :)

OnlyNow
Posts: 152
Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2006 8:47 am

Re: Challenging Eckhart: Practice is necessary, as is clock time

Post by OnlyNow » Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:37 am

We may say that we are life/consciousness manifested in form.

Many are continually lost in that form, in the world and the essence is obscured.

We identify solely with that form and the many others that arise.

These forms and the identities they engender though seemingly real are just illusions as is all form and all identity with it.

Release the identity with form and then its just a game.
When the Pupil is ready the Master appears

Post Reply