Challenging Eckhart: Practice is necessary, as is clock time

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MasterDee
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Re: Challenging Eckhart: Practice is necessary, as is clock time

Post by MasterDee » Sun Dec 09, 2007 1:56 am

Practice is necessary, why?
It's not enough to know who you are on a conceptual level, everybody here know (I assume) who they are, but folks this is not enough, it's just bunch of belief mind do to you. You can say 10000x of times I'am not my mind and the body and u have "feeling" you are already there. no no, its not so easy at all.
WHO U ARE MUST BE EXPERIENCE BASED and NOT mind knowledge. of course you know you are conscious BUT this is not enough. Knowledge is just a pointer, nothing more.

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Suzanne
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Re: Challenging Eckhart: Practice is necessary, as is clock time

Post by Suzanne » Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:33 am

I appreciate this thread so much because I have made most of my journey alone. :)

Can I propose an analogy for "just do it."?

If we're trying to establish whether or not presense is instant, can we allow for some polite qualifying of being on Eckhart's part?

Kindly answer the following questions:

True or false: Everyone can draw right now.

True or false: Everyone can sing right now.

See my drift? In fact everyone can sing or draw right now. Perhaps he's not clarifying the fact that a beginner's drawing or singing may not be a deep and meaningful and profound as a master's. But it is a start, and it is in fact happening. That first glimpse of connection to all, and the first taste of not being alone could be the shallowest and shortest, but it could also be the most transformational of all the other steps taken in the future. I never forgot mine, and it is a very powerful reminder that no matter what, I've already "got" everything I'll ever need. Personally, my journey started decades before I ever picked up a single spiritual book or tripped over any buddhist teachings. I was already 80% there before I started. Life just only made sense that way to me.

So, imho, I allow Eckhart his gentlemanly acceptance of all sucesses as equal. I know my first steps were small but I've never changed course. There were times when I was tending to family matters instead of my own, but I always returned at the first opportunity. So for me, the time was not spent struggling with "spiritual" techniques, but tending to others and their matters. That's what added time to my journey.

No one can know another's path.

But I can see why Eckhart tries to shake up those who attempt all this in their minds, and remain collectors of signposts. He's right about that.

In the Matrix, Fishburn says, "Stop trying to hit me and hit me."

Also, I'd like to add that Paul Ferrini's books softened me up to be ready for PON to knock me right off my old shelf. I'm sure he'd be OK with that.

Acceptance of each other's paths seems to be exactly what all teachers are attempting to convey.

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Onceler
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Re: Challenging Eckhart: Practice is necessary, as is clock time

Post by Onceler » Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:55 am

Suzanne wrote: Acceptance of each other's paths seems to be exactly what all teachers are attempting to convey.
Good post, Suzanne. I think this quote belongs over in "a tiny bit of clarity".
Be present, be pleasant.

fish-master
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Re: Challenging Eckhart: Practice is necessary, as is clock time

Post by fish-master » Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:23 pm

The concept of teaching to a person's particular level is very important. I tried giving TPON to my friend, who is just a 15 year old girl. She's very bright but she could not connect with any of this material, and ultimately got bored with it. I have always been interested in philosophy and spirituality, but I think it was around 17, 18 that I got into it.

Is there any advice for helping kids, or people who simply find this stuff boring in practicing a little spirituality and trying to break free of their illusions. I love the story at the beginning of TPON about the beggar. I think it's true that most people are ok with the way they are, but they don't realize how much they are missing. I try to convey this story to others to help motivate them to step up and start examining their lives a little, but people are extrememly resistant.

Any advice?

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Re: Challenging Eckhart: Practice is necessary, as is clock time

Post by suraj » Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:22 am

No one can know another's path
Thanks for this quote.
In the Matrix, Fishburn says, "Stop trying to hit me and hit me."
Can you clarify this a little more . I'm a big fan of Matrix.
I AM

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Onceler
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Re: Challenging Eckhart: Practice is necessary, as is clock time

Post by Onceler » Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:09 pm

Fishmaster,

I work with kids in therapy. I don't talk directly about Tolle, but indirectly explain some of the techniques, esp. when they are emotionally upset. In my experience, timing is everything wth kids. I have them breathe. I use the Em-wave, a little electronic gadget that flashes and beeps according to how even your heartbeats are; even heart beats indicate calm and focus. Electronics seem to be the portal for kids!

Most importantly I try to listen and be present completely. If someone is anxious or angry and "spinning", I have them breathe and just feel their body "without thinking". Girls get this very quickly, boys, well....sometimes.

I have noticed that the seeds you plant flourish at unexpected times, esp. if planted in awareness and listening. (and at the right time).
Be present, be pleasant.

jgh
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Re: Challenging Eckhart: Practice is necessary, as is clock time

Post by jgh » Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:31 pm

If someone is anxious or angry and "spinning", I have them breathe and just feel their body "without thinking". Girls get this very quickly, boys, well....sometimes.
Could you give some more details about how to do this? How young can the kids be to start with this technique? I'd like to help my daughter when she's upset but I think she's too young.

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Onceler
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Re: Challenging Eckhart: Practice is necessary, as is clock time

Post by Onceler » Thu Dec 13, 2007 2:30 pm

How old is she? Kids can be suprising; they get things we don't expect them to get. I usually use this technique with kids 12 and up, but I work with delayed kids, so maybe younger.

I have them say what thoughts "pop" into their heads. Then I might repeat them back. Then ask how their body feels when they think these thoughts. Younger kids might talk about having a headache or stomach ache. Then I ask them if they think the thoughts are making them feel a certain way. At this point I decide whether I will tackle the negative thinking or the negative feelings. If the kid is rather bright and seems to get the connection between thoughts and feelings (thoughts create a feeling in the body), then I will work with their thinking. If they are very upset, crying, etc. I know from experience that they are not thinking "rationally" and I will ask them to stop talking and focus on their bodies and see what happens. Pain/feelings worse? Better? What do you notice? Things like that. Get them to breathe!

Kids are resiliant and fun to work with. I don't talk about abstract ideas, but keep it simple, which of course is Tolle's way.

There are many creative ways to get to all this with kids, but the moment has to be RIGHT! I have learned not to push it. But if you have their attention and KEEP GOING! Don't lecture.

Another technique that works nicely for anxious kids, especially kids who can't sleep is the "body scan". Lie down, maybe in bed for the night, and start with your left big toe. "Scan" the toe with an "energy" scan that passes down the foot and up the leg. Suggest that the scan will relax their muscles and have them visualize the scanned part of the body as being light and full of calm energy. Tell them to go very slowly and to breathe into the part of the body that is being scanned. Sometimes the scan "gets stuck". That is okay, just breathe into that part of the body. Slowly move up the left leg, across your middle and then start with the right big toe. As you come up your right leg move back into your torso and slowly up the trunk of your body. When they reach their neck, have them go to their left fingertip and work back up their left arm, then their right arm. Finally scan up the neck and out the top of their head. Then visualize energy (if they haven't fallen asleep by this point) coming in their feet, throught their body and out their head.

This, of course is similar to Tolle's inner body work, but most kids like the "scan" idea. If they can't visualize, don't push it, tell them just to notice that part of their body and breathe into it. Again, girls get this and like it very much. Boys may have a tougher time with at this age.
Be present, be pleasant.

fish-master
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Re: Challenging Eckhart: Practice is necessary, as is clock time

Post by fish-master » Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:25 am

Great posts Onceler, I think you are bang on about the notion of timing as well as planting the seeds that will flourish later in life.

Just recently I had to try and refocus my friend, she has been anxious and she has not been doing her homework regularly. I waited until she was very calm and relaxed and I told her about it, and she seemed to really get it.

There have also been many times where kids have brought back something I told them a long time ago, and it just shows you have to patient and have faith. The rest will follow.

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Re: Challenging Eckhart: Practice is necessary, as is clock time

Post by jgh » Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:14 pm

Thank you Onceler. My baby is 20 months old. Its soon for the "scanner" one but it sounds good to try myself. I might try playing to breathe deep with her, with some laughs, so that she realises she can pay attention to her breathing when she feels like it. Just as a game, and see what comes up.

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Onceler
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Re: Challenging Eckhart: Practice is necessary, as is clock time

Post by Onceler » Sat Dec 15, 2007 12:39 am

I think that at 20 months children are present, if only because they have to be without a sense of time and internal thought processes. I learned a lot from my children at that age and tended to do a lot of the things they did--like play spontaneously and look at the world in wonder.

Enjoy your little darling!
Be present, be pleasant.

MasterDee
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Re: Challenging Eckhart: Practice is necessary, as is clock time

Post by MasterDee » Sat Dec 15, 2007 12:59 am

jgh wrote:Thank you Onceler. My baby is 20 months old. Its soon for the "scanner" one but it sounds good to try myself. I might try playing to breathe deep with her, with some laughs, so that she realises she can pay attention to her breathing when she feels like it. Just as a game, and see what comes up.
do self-realization for your self and not ego driven to your little children. then children will connect to you on a deeper level.

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Re: Challenging Eckhart: Practice is necessary, as is clock time

Post by Kingdomcome » Mon Dec 17, 2007 1:19 pm

MasterDee wrote:Practice is necessary, why?
It's not enough to know who you are on a conceptual level, everybody here know (I assume) who they are, but folks this is not enough, it's just bunch of belief mind do to you. You can say 10000x of times I'am not my mind and the body and u have "feeling" you are already there. no no, its not so easy at all.
WHO U ARE MUST BE EXPERIENCE BASED and NOT mind knowledge. of course you know you are conscious BUT this is not enough. Knowledge is just a pointer, nothing more.
qft.
It demands work. I have witnessed many who believe that simply knowing about the truth is eqiuvalent to living the truth. And yet they dont understand why they are still anxious, depressed etc. I have frequented a board created by someone who would endlessly keep jabbering about how we are not our mind. Yet not once did he actually tell about his expereinces out of this mind and how to get there. An experience so profound that you wouldnt ever stop to mention it. Never stop dweilling on it. To me at least its paradise rediscovered. A Kingdom returned. Being raised from the dead. A second coming. Rebirth. It has to be experienced to be appriciated.

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Onceler
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Re: Challenging Eckhart: Practice is necessary, as is clock time

Post by Onceler » Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:14 pm

Good post Kingdomcome and welcome to the group. I am of the work mentality as well (blue collar spirituality?) , but readily admit I don't have the experience to back that up. Many will say that you don't have to practice, just stay present/surrender.

How did you experience rebirth?
Be present, be pleasant.

Kingdomcome
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Re: Challenging Eckhart: Practice is necessary, as is clock time

Post by Kingdomcome » Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:49 pm

Onceler wrote:Good post Kingdomcome and welcome to the group. I am of the work mentality as well (blue collar spirituality?) , but readily admit I don't have the experience to back that up. Many will say that you don't have to practice, just stay present/surrender.

How did you experience rebirth?
Hi there and thx for the welcome :D . Seems to me that this board is the best there is on the net on the subject of mind. I am very happy to be allowed in such a group.
Rebirth happened the instant I realized that I am not my mind. This realization was impossible for me through cognitive logic. Using the mind to dismantle the mind was futile. At least for me.I do subscribe to some of Tolles beliefs though I am under the impression that he got it backwards (but that is for another discussion). But I use the same methodology as I fundamentally agree with him. Anyway what happened and happens every day is that I reverted and still revert to a condition that I lost long ago. To when I wasnt my mind. And that is like saying hello to a friend that I lost eaons ago (writing this makes me tearful. The joy is so overwhelming. Over being back in this world. Properly). The mind carried me away ages and ages ago. Finding back is the rebirth.

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