Challenging Eckhart: Practice is necessary, as is clock time

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Re: Challenging Eckhart: Practice is necessary, as is clock time

Post by TolleFan » Mon Dec 17, 2007 6:31 pm

I pretty much skimmed the thread and didn't see what I am about to say, so forgive me if it was already stated.

I am in the middle of ANOTHER reading of Tolle's "A New Earth" and I just happened to read the part about time last night.

Tolle clearly stated that he was not referring to clock time when he states "you don't need time", but rather to a person's (ego's) continual waffling between past and future. In other words, it is Tolle's way of saying that we should focus on eliminating the past and future that preoccupies our everyday thoughts.

It is not meant to be taken literally. As he states in the book, everything in the practical world takes time. But again, rather, he is saying that the ego's tendency to live in the past or future needs to be recognized and minimized.

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Re: Challenging Eckhart: Practice is necessary, as is clock time

Post by Kingdomcome » Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:45 pm

TolleFan wrote:I pretty much skimmed the thread and didn't see what I am about to say, so forgive me if it was already stated.

I am in the middle of ANOTHER reading of Tolle's "A New Earth" and I just happened to read the part about time last night.

Tolle clearly stated that he was not referring to clock time when he states "you don't need time", but rather to a person's (ego's) continual waffling between past and future. In other words, it is Tolle's way of saying that we should focus on eliminating the past and future that preoccupies our everyday thoughts.

It is not meant to be taken literally. As he states in the book, everything in the practical world takes time. But again, rather, he is saying that the ego's tendency to live in the past or future needs to be recognized and minimized.
Indeed. And to me that is partly imporatnt to recognise. I just think he is to obsessed with the past and future. The mind can be clouded by many other things that arent really related to time at all.
P

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Re: Challenging Eckhart: Practice is necessary, as is clock time

Post by Webwanderer » Mon Dec 17, 2007 11:16 pm

Kingdomcome wrote:I just think he is to obsessed with the past and future. The mind can be clouded by many other things that arent really related to time at all.
Maybe so, but I wouldn't discount the significance of being trapped in a time-based mentality. People spend enormous amounts of (clock) time and energy lamenting over the past and imagining about some wished for (or feared) future. Regaining clear awareness requires freedom from the stories of past and future. I agree that concepts of time isn't everything, but it is a key issue that must be seen.

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Re: Challenging Eckhart: Practice is necessary, as is clock time

Post by Kingdomcome » Mon Dec 17, 2007 11:52 pm

Webwanderer wrote:
Kingdomcome wrote:I just think he is to obsessed with the past and future. The mind can be clouded by many other things that arent really related to time at all.
Maybe so, but I wouldn't discount the significance of being trapped in a time-based mentality. People spend enormous amounts of (clock) time and energy lamenting over the past and imagining about some wished for (or feared) future. Regaining clear awareness requires freedom from the stories of past and future. I agree that concepts of time isn't everything, but it is a key issue that must be seen.
Agreed Fullfillment on a superficial level is most often connected with a timeline. Indeed I have self been a victim of this. As it has now subsided more or less completely I find myself in empty space. But that is another discussion.
I just watched an Eckhart video btw. Man I would like to have a cup of tea and a chat with that man :)

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Re: Challenging Eckhart: Practice is necessary, as is clock time

Post by Suzanne » Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:36 am

Kingdomcome wrote: Man I would like to have a cup of tea and a chat with that man :)
Amen! Wouldn't we all! And of course you're "allowed" on this board. What would be the point of having one that people weren't allowed to join? I'm here because I've made this journey (so far) alone and I need some company: Yours. The great we. I wanted to know that there are others out and about who understand our connection, even if our forms need to be in other locations.

This board makes the here here and the now now for all of us. No matter where we type and read from, no matter when.

This is beautiful. 8)

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Re: Challenging Eckhart: Practice is necessary, as is clock time

Post by gdvant » Sun Jan 20, 2008 4:41 pm

GV: there is the dimension of thought where everything has a beginning and an
ending and there is the timeless dimension where there is no beginning or ending.
The timeless dimension is realized only now. If it is something to work toward,
consciousness is limited to the field of the known where past is recollected and
future is projected. So a shift in consciousness means measurement (time)
stops and the body/brain perceives without the interference of thought.

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Re: Challenging Eckhart: Practice is necessary, as is clock time

Post by boogeyman » Mon Jan 21, 2008 12:40 am

We don't need time to be in the now.

We might need practise(=time) to re-learn how
to say present constantly and not get lost in thought.

You can simply choose to be in the now, now.

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Re: Challenging Eckhart: Practice is necessary, as is clock time

Post by Kutso » Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:23 pm

boogeyman wrote:You can simply choose to be in the now, now.
I don't think there's any choice in that matter. You are always now. Always. :lol:

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Re: Challenging Eckhart: Practice is necessary, as is clock time

Post by gdvant » Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:39 am

gv: when we speak of the now, we refer to a direct non-conceptual
knowing of the timeless dimension. For example, we speak of
living more fully in the now so there is greater depth of being,
a realization of a vast spaciousness that envelops what arises.

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Re: Challenging Eckhart: Practice is necessary, as is clock time

Post by garuda » Sat Feb 02, 2008 2:04 am

innerhike,

Kiki’s comment regarding Ramana was the opinion that best matches what I would say. I agree with her explanation of Ramana’s approach. The truly skillful teacher matches his/her answer to the level of student’s understanding. An answer that is right for one student, may not help or satisfy another student at a different level of understanding.

I might venture one more addition:
If you truly believe it will take time to awaken to Present Moment Awareness, then it will take time, but only because you believe it will. But in truth the wait time will be indefinite — because Present now awareness cannot occur in the time continuum. ET tells us it cannot. But in any given moment that you truly reach the stillness point — without regard to time (without mind thought), then your “always already present now awareness” will be revealed instantly and without any wait time. You will discover that you are that awareness, during that revealing moment.

The act of having (Being) Present moment awareness for most of us is like your “breathing” — you are always breathing but you never notice it unless someone or something (teacher, book, yourself) tells you to recognize it or calls attention to it. And this is also true with Present Moment Awareness, you are it 24/7 non-stop but your mind thoughts will not subside long enough to recognize it — just like your mind does not recognize your constant, continuous breathing until your attention is drawn to it.

This I feel is what the teachers you quoted are referring to as “you are always already THAT!” But the mind, which is synonymous with “time,” fails to realize or recognize this always constant continuous “present awareness.” So you spin out of control with an avalanche of discursive thoughts that mask your recognition of constant present awareness.

I believe that in absolute truth, “awakened awareness” is actually instantly available to anyone in any given moment; no time or practice is necessary — unless you believe it takes time to achieve. If you truly believe you already are THAT, then you are. If not, then you are not. And you cannot fake this one. None of this is new, I am only reminding you of what you already know.
Recognize present awareness......... rest in that awareness..........don’t become distracted.

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Re: Challenging Eckhart: Practice is necessary, as is clock time

Post by kiki » Sat Feb 02, 2008 5:46 am

What a great post, garuda - tremendous clarity. You are a real asset to the board.
"Miss Kelly, perhaps you'd like this flower. I seem to have misplaced my buttonhole ... Miss Kelly, you know, when you wear my flower you make it look beautiful." Elwood P. Dowd
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Re: Challenging Eckhart: Practice is necessary, as is clock time

Post by Webwanderer » Sat Feb 02, 2008 6:28 am

garuda wrote:innerhike,
I believe that in absolute truth, “awakened awareness” is actually instantly available to anyone in any given moment; no time or practice is necessary — unless you believe it takes time to achieve. If you truly believe you already are THAT, then you are. If not, then you are not. And you cannot fake this one. None of this is new, I am only reminding you of what you already know.
An excellent post garuda, clearly stated and obviously understood. I am curious as to your thoughts on the greater opportunities of "awakened awareness". Presence awareness alone may be nothing more that thought free focus in this "now". The distinction between this clear perspective and attachment to a perceived identity of a creative mind is fairly simple to see. But what then? (or now as the case may be?)

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Re: Challenging Eckhart: Practice is necessary, as is clock time

Post by innerhike » Sat Feb 02, 2008 7:08 am

This is so cool. I come back over 7 months later and this topic is still alive.

Alright folks, I admit it, I love Eckhart, he is my hero.

All I am saying is this:

If you think that you are in the NOW 24/7 at all levels of your being, then that's great.

But if there is even a moment when you are asleep, then the work ain't over.

You see my friends, non-duality and non-dual teachers are very easily understood, but their teachings are the hardest thing to live by.

So many of you have attempted to express the inexpressible in response to my original posting. All you are saying is that at the deepest level all is well, but we are not able to stay at that level.

If you are in the same place as Eckhart or Ramana Maharshi, more power to you. If you are established in this 24x7 then there is no need for discussion.

But if you are honest with yourself and can see your bullshit, you know that the work has to go on.

The work of no-work has to go on. What shape, what form it takes, is unique to each of us. But let's not bullshit ourselves and think that we are fully established in the NOW. I am willing to bet everything I will earn in this lifetime that there are only 1% or less who will come to this place even after decades of knowing the teachings of Eckhart.

Eckhart is bullshitting us when he says there is a change coming in this world. In this he is no different from hucksters like Deepak Chopra (I say this as a fellow Indian) and the people behind The Secret. Perhaps he is naive or deeply optimistic and hopeful. I believe that we are easily a few hundred to a few thousand years away from a time when the majority of the beings on this planet will be established in the NOW.

Tell me a simple thing, have you felt any of these things in the last couple days:

- Lost your temper
- Felt uncomfortable in any way
- Wished something in you or outside you would be different
- Had thoughts, dreams, emotions without awareness
- Not felt centered even in a small, subtle way

If you answered yes to any of these, then you are not done. Your work has just started.

I am simply challenging people, and it seems few are taking me up on it. Most believe that they have it figured out. Most are just re-hashing the party line, just re-dressing the words of Eckhart. Well, figuring it out ain't gonna help you when LIFE shows up and crashes your party.

You better believe it baby, life will take everything away from you, even your ideas about Now and how well-established in the now you think you are...

Your enlightenment from yesterday
Ain't gonna help you today or tomorrow
Baby, the now that you knew back then
Won't help you now, this moment right now
Every day I vow to see my stupidity
I vow to love all of this
All of this my friend
Not just the perfection
Not just the heroes with the halos
But the villains, the Hitlers, the Kenyans killing each other
Right Now
Baby Krishnamurti came and went
He screwed his friend's wife
Talked like silk
Convinced many people
Who still didn't know up from down when he died
Ramana tried to walk away from it all so many times
And now we have so many hanging up his picture
And giving satsang in his name
Baby it's just a game
Of people who claim to have it figured out
And people who believe this baloney
So few real ones
In a sea of fakery
So many pleasant talkers with forked tongues
In world full of misery
Don't tell me about your advaita or your now
Show me, show me baby, show me what you feel
Are you feeling the love 24x7
Or are you in pain every now and then
Show me baby, don't tell me
For the party ain't gonna stop
Just 'cos you know how to spell N-O-W

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Re: Challenging Eckhart: Practice is necessary, as is clock time

Post by Webwanderer » Sat Feb 02, 2008 7:53 am

Enjoying your self ?

Most of us know the world is full of shadows, but still we prefer the light. And the world is certainly filled with reminders that there are challenges yet unmet. But occasionally one comes upon an oasis where clear water flows. So let us drink awhile its purity before we throw our boots in - just to prove that mud still exists.

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Re: Challenging Eckhart: Practice is necessary, as is clock time

Post by Onceler » Sat Feb 02, 2008 2:34 pm

I find your post interesting and challenging, Innerhike.
Tell me a simple thing, have you felt any of these things in the last couple days:

- Lost your temper
- Felt uncomfortable in any way
- Wished something in you or outside you would be different
- Had thoughts, dreams, emotions without awareness
- Not felt centered even in a small, subtle way

If you answered yes to any of these, then you are not done. Your work has just started.
This challange was a bit of a marker for me. Yeah,
-I got angry, but didn't lose my temper
-I felt uncomfortable, but questioned my thinking and brought awareness to it
-I wished things were different, then laughed because they weren't
-I had lots of thoughts, dreams, emotions without awareness
-I did not feel centered in smaller and larger ways, but regained centeredness.

I guess I don't mind working, especially when I can see subtle changes. And you helped me do that. thanks.

As for your thoughts on the more negative side of "spirituality". I am not saying you are not right. But have a question. Aren't they thoughts and opinions that should be held to the same scrutiny you gave to the "party line"?
Be present, be pleasant.

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