Life purpose

Talk about anything Tolle-related here.
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yougarksooo
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Post by yougarksooo » Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:39 pm

If you are aware of the hypnotic spell that identification (with the ego-mind) casts over us, and how that spell distorts our view of our world, your first order of business will be snapping the spell and awakening. Once one can see things clearly and accurately, any form of doing is always (and without effort) greatly enhanced.
Yes. And... if anyone reads Tolle in a highly mind-identified state and not ready to hear that message, it is only normal that the person would then resist the teaching. This is the mind's resistance itself. If you think about it, Tolle's teachings are directed at telling the mind that it really isn't who you are. What mind, which is not ready to hear this, would not resist that? To me, this is what accounts for these discussions on here.

I often have conversations with people who have no interest in presence or who admittedly can't become present. They essentially argue on the side of more mind, no presence, and ultimately in the end they defend their own unhappiness (these are people who often admit that they don't experience joy). I don't have a problem with any of that. But this question remains after I have these discussions: What makes a person argue against something which they have never truly experienced? Oh yea, the mind. It wants control. It wants to stay in control. And everything is seen as a threat to that.

The reason I mention this is, because once the inner shift happened, the outer purpose was no longer seen as a problem to be solved or something to work out. There is a natural flow from inner to outer. Again, my experience only. Perhaps there are others who are still struggling after a shift. That would hardly make sense though because after this thing woke me up, I looked around and wondered what all the fuss is about.
Last edited by yougarksooo on Mon Jul 09, 2007 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"When people ask me who they are or who God is, I smile inside and whisper to the light: there you go again . . . pretending."

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Hiren Shah
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Post by Hiren Shah » Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:43 pm

First of all, I have never said that ET is a career coach. The words career and life purpose are mere words which do not always reflect what is being tried to be conveyed . It is just that so many management people have started expressing what one normally used to call career in terms of the soul because of the nature of the problem they have encountered, one thought that since ET explains spirituality so well, just thought that maybe he could have done something here as well. ET's words "In fact, in the modern world, more and more people are confused as to where they fit in, what their purpose is, and even who they are". The expression "where they fit in" points towards their work- ET probably mentioned this because he might have come across a lot of them itself.

Spirituality is not only about higher consiousness and inner being but is also there in day to day affairs. People are in fact encouraged to do regular work with detachment which facilitates "grounding" , an essence of spirituality. Life's work cannot be far behind since that is one's core from a different dimension.

Suraj have said that the inner state is primary. Where have I said that it is secnodary? All I have said is that while being rooted in the being pursue both( search your roots). ET himself said " There is nothing wrong in setting goals and striving to achieve things. The mistake lies in using it as the substitute for the inner being". I only stated that outer purpose was an important goal towards which ET could have contributed more because he understands and writes so well. I never said that outer purpose was primary or a substitute.- I just said that it should be given its due importance- In management, the focus is on generating revenue but that does not imply that we don't reduce cost.


Perhaps a "direct expeience" of a totally misalligned outer purpose may lead to a better balance of views .

The "sense of proportion" is another facet of spirituality. Like in a diet, though Proteins and carbohydrates are concerned more important, fats also have to be there in the right proportion. Then why discuss only from the context of the inner purpoase even though it maybe primary?

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Post by Hiren Shah » Mon Jul 09, 2007 6:30 pm

Well, my dear friend, you are talking of people talking in mind identified state not knowing presence and defending and all that. I have direct experience of both the states. Being in the occupation not of my liking, I have no alternative but to practice presence and I am much better off than I used to be when I was not aware of presence. That, however does not imply that the outer purpose becomes redundant .

Quoting Zen Budhdhism again
If this is good, this must be the right way, and everything else must be wrong." But it’s not like that. This is good and that’s good, too. This is important and that is also really important
Here too, I feel that both inner and outer purpose are important even though the inner purpose can only be percieved in the context of higher consciousness.

I think endless verbalisation on the issue goes against the spirt of ET's teachings and the essence of spirituality. Budhdha himself had said that everybody has to go by his direct experience and I have reason to stand by mine. There cannot be absoute, one dimensional views on anything.

It was in any case meant to be a compliment to ET.

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Post by yougarksooo » Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:02 pm

That, however does not imply that the outer purpose becomes redundant .
right, not redundant. But (and I can only speak from my experience) presence carries with it attention in the now. I look to future only for practical reasons, not for a purpose in life (the latter might be disguised egoic searching). Today, as an attorney, I could become a judge, maybe run for district attorney, or even leave the profession and do something in some other area. I'm not seeking my purpose through this profession. If anything, who I really am, is coming out through the work in this profession, and probably making me much better at what I do. But to say that this profession, regardless of where it takes me, has anything to do with who I am? I won't say that. I refuse to live in untruth anymore.
"When people ask me who they are or who God is, I smile inside and whisper to the light: there you go again . . . pretending."

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Life fitting??

Post by Goldenflutist » Mon Jul 09, 2007 11:46 pm

Happiness happens when you fit with your life. When you fit so harmoniously that whatsoever you are doing is your joy. Then suddenly you come to know that meditation follows you. If you love the work you are doing, if you love the way you are living, then you are meditative. It is deemed that happiness comes when one is meditative. It is just the other way around. One is meditative when one is happy
And what happens if the forces of life itself prevent you from fitting with your life, and how do you decide Life is fitting with you? Ego maybe? Material desires perhaps? We all know people who are physically or mentally incapable of finding the occupation or activity that will bring them happiness and assist them into fitting into life. I have a sneaking suspicion that there are people on this planet who could try 1,000 different activities or occupations that they think would make them fit with life and come up feeling empty and searching for more. I think it is the other way around one who meditates is happy!
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Post by Foxtrot » Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:04 am

I am just wondering if the cultural differences might be blocking some effective communication in this dialogue. Most of the replies seem to becoming from those in th U.S.A. We have and often take for granted the number of opportunities we have in this country. We are a larger country in size I believe (been a little while since I've brushed up on these things) and have only 1/3 to 1/4 the population as India. The question that crossed my mind is, is this a issue of people not having any idea of what they would like to do, or maybe more an issue of a limitation of opportunity in your country. I have talked to a number of people who have said to me that they were unhappy with their work, only to find the dissatisfaction was really some other issue in their life. Once the real cause came into their awareness, they were able to resolve the issue and find meaning and satisfaction again. A very good book to help get to the heart of the matter is a book called FOCUSING by Eugene Gendlin. I have never met a person that after a little questioning, had no idea what they wanted to do as far as work. They may claim that at first, but find they really do know what they would like to do but are just blocked a little inside and can not figure out how to get what they want. If the issue is more that you know what you would like to do, but there is just no opportunity where you live, and it seems unlikely an opportunity in the field you choose will materilize any time soon, then you can only move to an area where the job is available or accept the situation as it is. I do not see anything else you can do but maybe someone else might have an idea.

This is a paragraph I copied from your website:
The magnitude of the problem can be gauged from extreme expressions such as “Lifetime imprisonment” ,”Spiritual suicide”, “Living death” being used by sufferers or some of the “titles” of the books that have been written by them:-

“I Could Do Anything If I Only Knew What It Was: How to Discover What You Really want” Barbara Sher
“I Don’t Know What I Want, But I Know It’s Not This”: by Julie Jansen
“Do What You Love, The Money Will Follow: Discovering Your Right Livelihood” by Marsha Sinatra
“True Work: Doing What You Love and Loving What You Do” Paperback by Michael Toms
“How to Find the Work You Love” Paperback by Laurence G. Boldt
“Passion at Work: How to Find Work You Love and Live the Time of Your Life” by Lawler Kang
“To Build the Life You Want, Create the Work You Love”: by Marsha Sinetar
“Discover Your Passion : An Intuitive Search to Find Your Purpose in Life” Gail A. Cassidy
These books as well as the inspiring story of Craig Nathanson are right on your on website. They lay the guidlines for the solution to the problem you are talking about. It seems to me the answer you are seeking is right on your website.

And to quote from your very first post:
http://mypyp.wordpress.com/. The introductory page relevant links and relvant books on the right hand side ot the page reveal the magnitude of the problem.
Some of the books and stories also suggest the solution. I would really like to contribute something to help if I could, but I am a little confused as to why you can see the problem but not the answer. Others who have confronted this in their life, and worked through it, have written books about how they have traversed this in their life, and you have mentioned them right there on your website. Maybe it is just me but I am scratching my head and wondering are you missing someting or is it me.

Please don't take this the wrong way. I am not trying to make fun. You are obviously a very intelligent person, and I am sure, as I mentioned in the beginnig of this post, it might be some type of cultural difference, that is getting in the way of a clear communication, but I feel like a guy, standing on the roadside, and you come up to me, tap me on the shoulder and say, excuse me sir, but a man about a mile back on the road told me if I came to here, I would have a very nice view of the forest. But all those trees over there seem to blocking my view. Can you please tell me if there is any other place where I may be able to observe the forest a little better.

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Never happy

Post by Goldenflutist » Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:52 am

I can see where you are coming from Foxtrot, and that is a good insight on the cultural issue. What I was trying to get at was that this finding your fit in life can be an illusion and a never ending search for something that doesn't really exist. For much of my life I had thought inside my mind, that yes I do love teaching children, and I do experience great joy at doing it, but there are many things I do not like about it, like getting up early in the morning, having a schedule, having to answer to bosses and parents, etc, I always entertained the notion that if I could have been a ballet dancer, or a flutist with the London Philharmonic, then that would have created the ultimate happiness. Forget that I did not have the talent necessary for those occupations. Life had cheated me out of doing what I love the most I would lament. Then it was being independently wealthy so I could cruise around the world and find my true calling. Life's circumstances were preventing me from doing what I really wanted to do. I was being held back by the powers that are. Reading a book on how to achieve that is not going to help a person who wants to pursue something that is not possible for them due to physical or intellectual limitations. I think it is a slippery slope for many. I had to realize that true happiness comes from within, and does not depend on me finding the right fit in life. I will always think there is something better than what I found so far if I keep entertaining the idea that you can search and find your ultimate dream job. For me, that does not work. Before Tolle I would have spent my life in regret that I never danced as a professional ballerina, or found a cure for AIDS. It’s that old ego wanting more because what you have is never enough. I think with deep presence, life will point you in the right direction so there will be no need to search.
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Post by yougarksooo » Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:26 am

What I was trying to get at was that this finding your fit in life can be an illusion and a never ending search for something that doesn't really exist.
Yes, my experience. It doesn't have to be a neverending search. I think it is possible to go looking for a good job that "fits" with one's interest. But, so many times in my life, and in the lives of people I know, this doesn't seem to be the case. There seems to be this searching as if finding something on the outside will magically transform the inside. I'm not going to rule that possibility out. But on its face, it no longer makes sense for me to believe that I will find myself by looking outside myself. It is more in my own truth to say, I am, be completely accepting of what is, and see what flows from that.

Doing that, I tend not to even think about career, and I tend not to be insecure about money, etc. I find I have exactly what I need at this moment. You know how I know this? Because that is what I have. The rest is just unfolding as it will. The unfolding is a beautiful little dance. That is true. It's very easy to substitute finding my life "purpose" with finding "myself" in future. So easy, that it slips right by me. I then go looking around the next corner, and the next, hoping that something will reveal itself which will make it the way it should be. This is an illusion. Everything is already as it should be. If there is ever a time when I don't see this, its my own confusion.
"When people ask me who they are or who God is, I smile inside and whisper to the light: there you go again . . . pretending."

Adya

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Ego and looking

Post by Goldenflutist » Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:42 am

I
am, be completely accepting of what is, and see what flows from that. Doing that, I tend not to even think about career, be insecure about money, etc. I find I have exactly what I need at this moment
I appreciate your saying this yougarksooo in a more concise way than I did. What I have always thought amusing is that parents and administrators frequently tell me that teaching was definitely my vocation and calling. They see the joy and life I bring to the classroom, not because it is my calling, but because I bring it to my job from the inside. I would like to scream and say, NO! I was supposed to be a ballerina, but life dealt me a blow by not giving me the talent and opportunity to realize that dream. I unfortunately fell into the trap of worrying about the lack of prestige and monetary rewards connected with teaching children, and that left me wanting to find something else; pure ego at its worst. I now understand that the world for the most part is insane, and the values they have placed on my profession should mean nothing to me.
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Post by yougarksooo » Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:17 am

I think you explain it very well and I can relate. I grew as a talented athlete. People thought I should have continued through college. I didn't want to. It wasn't inside me to do that. Then I wrote songs forever. I wish I could tell you that I wrote songs because I loved writing. No, I did it because people kept telling me how talented I was. It almost created a guilt in me during those times when I wasn't writing. Of course, now I write songs only because I want to write, without a thought of what others think. Heck, people never hear what I write. If someday, I want to let others hear, I will. But I refuse to live my life based on some egoic need for approval or do something merely because I'm good at it or because people think its my calling.

This has been the most freeing thing. To see this. Today, I'm looking for any other cobwebs in my head about who I think I'm supposed to be or who people think I'm supposed to be. They actually keep me from being who I am. Cruel joke.
"When people ask me who they are or who God is, I smile inside and whisper to the light: there you go again . . . pretending."

Adya

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Post by Hiren Shah » Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:39 pm

Goldenflutist has made this very interesting comment.
Before Tolle I would have spent my life in regret that I never danced as a professional ballerina, or found a cure for AIDS. It’s that old ego wanting more because what you have is never enough. I think with deep presence, life will point you in the right direction so there will be no need to search.
It is the same with me. Like yougarksoo, I am a writer by spontanous inclination but in India at least, it is impossible to make a living out of writing alone. I too write because I like it. When I sit in front of the computer, it is almost that I am in meditation. When I used to do accounts on the computer on the other hand, I used to do get into all kinds of problems before I read ET. Presnece conbined with surrender is a very powerful tool no doubt. However in my particular case, I still feel that the spontaneous absorption is more powerful or maybe the qualifty of my presnece leaves a lot to be desired. I deinitely feel much better like goldenflutist and the regret element has reduced.

Very flattering to hear from Foxtrot that I am intelligent. One American consultant said that one definition of Intelligence is "What is uniquely you?" or what is that you can do uniquely and differentialtingly well which also corroborates with some of what our spiritual stalwarts say. Morgan and Banks who were there before Monster(they took over from monster, one of the largest career consultants in the world)said that the worst sufferers are those who are nische people- who were good at only a few things. For example youngarksoo and I have somewhat similar profiles(writing) but he is also a good attorney. Our opinions would be shaped accordingly and be relevant to people who approximately match those profiles from the outer mind perspective. Inner being can be a common ground where you can at least be at peace.


Cultural differences as mentioned by foxtrot are significant. In the United States, there is tremendous dignity of labour and respect for the individual- things like a professor and a Janitor sitting on the same table and be able to chat on a one to one basis which actually conveys an absence of ego and is real spirituality. That sort of culture enables easy swiitching of jobs. In our society, it can be three times tougher generally though personally like yougarksoo, I dont bother much about what people think though I would like to make a living of writing if possible.


Not only Craig but the kind of career switches other American consultants do are fantastic.. In the context of cultural differences, if you see the website of monster.com of United states and India, there is a world of difference. They even tell me frankly "That sort of thing(choosing career on the basis of passion) can only happen in America. The Americans are rich. We have to work whether we like it or not". Our country is very diverse also in a variety of ways which makes it more diffficult. Today I met somebody liike Craig and am trying to tie up with him to try and achieve what he is doing.. Maybe with him, we can have a better perspective on the forest.

I try to do fiancial management with ET's presnece and surrender till I can suport myself with what I want to do. I see nothing wrong in that. If it happens, well and good and it does not , I am not going to miss much with ET's presence apart from my own intense consious presence.
Last edited by Hiren Shah on Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Dongle » Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:57 pm

Thank You for your post Hiren Shah

The India you depict is in some ways similar to where I come from. I think there is something to be said about the gravity of mind structures surrounding class and race differences and how deeply entrenched they can be, how deeply motivated by primal fear they are, and how they can affect people's lives.

I know this is off the topic but it highlights an interesting issue for me concerning the accessibility of ET and other spiritual teachers and teachings in these parts of the world. I would be interested to hear how you (and any others) see this accessibility.

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Please elaborate Hiren Shah

Post by Goldenflutist » Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:48 pm

The Americans are rich. We have to work whether we like it or not"

Hiren Shah, would you please elaborate a little more to the above quote. I was a little taken aback by that comment, but not in a negative way. I know so many people from other countries see America in this way. As for me, if I did not work, I would be homeless and would be living on the streets begging for my food. I have to work whether I like it or not. If I quite my job or got sick and could not work, the bank would take my house and my car. I often feel I have to work in an organized structure so I can afford health insurance since I could never afford to pay for it on my own. I see wealth all around me in this country, but only a small percentage of the population controls it. I could go on and on. I love living here, make no mistake, but it is not the Nirvana many think it is either. I see very little consciousness. And please, no angry posts from anyone. I am not bashing the U.S.A.! Since I have not lived in any other part of the world, I cannot make an educated comparison, but do I honestly have to? What I feel is relevant to me no matter what others many think or feel.

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JD
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Post by JD » Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:49 pm

Hiren Shah wrote:In the United States, there is tremendous dignity of labour and respect for the individual- things like a professor and a Janitor sitting on the same table and be able to chat on a one to one basis which actually conveys an absence of ego and is real spirituality.
Yes, although the janitor gets paid considerably more than the professor. :D
Goldenflutist wrote: Hiren Shah, would you please elaborate a little more to the above quote. I was a little taken aback by that comment, but not in a negative way. I know so many people from other countries see America in this way.
I suspect that Hiren Shah's rosy picture of America is gleaned exclusively from old Jimmy Stewart movies.

Comments like:
In the United States, there is tremendous dignity of labour and respect for the individual...
are heavy with unconscious irony.

I remember how shocked I was when I read the sociologist Studs Terkel's books, Work and The American Dream.

Both books are collections of interviews with working Americans, from the CEOs of multi-national corporations to guys who sweep the street.

The one clear thing that emerges from the books is that every single interviewee felt worthless if he hadn't achieved wealth or fame - even people doing highly worthwhile jobs teaching, looking after old people etc.

They all felt like failures and admitted as much to Terkel, a brilliantly sympathetic interviewer who gets his subjects to open up in an extraordinary manner.

At the time, I thought this a terrible indictment of the values of American society and a decade on England is going much the same way.

For a more up-to-the-minute account of how much respect and dignity America's low-paid workers can expect, I recommend Barbara Ehrenreich's excellent book: Nickel and Dimed: On (Not) Getting By in America.

She went undercover and worked in a variety of McJobs from Wallmart to McDonalds:

http://www.barbaraehrenreich.com/nickelanddimed.htm
Last edited by JD on Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:14 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Nice touch of humor

Post by Goldenflutist » Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:58 pm

I thought the quote you provided was funny as well, but I was too lazy to address it. I do not see dignity shown to many professions, nor to the individual. It would depend on the level of consciousness of the professor as to whether he would sit down with the janitor and give him the respect due to him as an individual. He might simply judge him for not trying to better himself. We must be doing a bang up job with public relations to be giving such glowing perceptions.
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