Presence does not lead to enlightenment

Talk about anything Tolle-related here.
User avatar
Intel
Posts: 166
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2007 3:34 pm
Location: Near wild heaven

Presence does not lead to enlightenment

Post by Intel » Tue Jan 15, 2008 2:25 pm

I just came from speaking to Roger Linden by phone and I have to tell you, it was most interesting and mind altering. He is supposedly a realised teacher living in North London. We had a nice little conversation and I asked different things, such as how his perception worked, how does it feel to speak to someone else when they're yourself etc

I decided to get to my most valued question, how do I make myself realized? I've read the books, have been to a teacher, stayed present. He kept telling me in different ways that you can't 'make' realization happen, it just happens. Something falls away. This frustrated me, and I was tired of his word play gynastics. So I hit him with the Tolle man. I told him that I read POW and Eckhart said to become enlightened you have to stay present. Then Roger said "I don't agree". Whaa??? He said that presence can alter your life experience but it won't lead you to truth. There is still the idea of a someone being present.

I told him that Eckhart awakened by surrending, he said that surrendering happened. I told him that in I AM THAT-talks with Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj, he said that earnestness will get you there. Roger said that he disagrees, and infact thought something wasn't quite right with that book. He said in a later book Maharaj went on to say he was incorrect, that this wasn't true. At the time of publishing I AM THAT Maharaj wasn't fully awakened. Strange.

I was confused, I kept putting the question to him, "Are you sure presence doesn't work"? "Yes". There is nothing wrong with it, and it may change your life experience, but it won't help you in realization. So then, what can I do to speed up the process, he said that you just can't, however you can keep going to satsangs and asking questions as this may help you.

That was it, the end of the phone call. Staying present won't help you, earnestness won't help you. All my spiritual practise has been for nothing. I hung up the telephone and looked to the sky, gazing into the universe for something. I don't know, God, help, someone. Now I feel well and truly lost.
I would lick your feet, but is that the sickest move?

OnlyNow
Posts: 152
Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2006 8:47 am

Re: Presence does not lead to enlightenment

Post by OnlyNow » Tue Jan 15, 2008 2:37 pm

Don't take your thoughts too seriously.

That was advice from ET at one of his gatherings.

I suggest you don't take anything you hear or read too seriously either.

Just go with what feels right for you
When the Pupil is ready the Master appears

User avatar
Intel
Posts: 166
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2007 3:34 pm
Location: Near wild heaven

Re: Presence does not lead to enlightenment

Post by Intel » Tue Jan 15, 2008 2:44 pm

I'm not sure taking nothing seriously will lead to realization. Thats all I want, I don't care what feels right for me. I just want awaken to truth before I die.
I would lick your feet, but is that the sickest move?

Sw Anand Devagni.
Posts: 95
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2007 11:16 am

Re: Presence does not lead to enlightenment

Post by Sw Anand Devagni. » Tue Jan 15, 2008 4:36 pm

Maybe that's the problem.

You're attached to non-attachment.

I strongly suggest you avail yourself of the Big Mind DVD and then have a look at http://www.zen-eye.org. I would heartily recommend doing the DVD first, though.

Daniel

OnlyNow
Posts: 152
Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2006 8:47 am

Re: Presence does not lead to enlightenment

Post by OnlyNow » Tue Jan 15, 2008 6:39 pm

Intel wrote:I'm not sure taking nothing seriously will lead to realization. Thats all I want, I don't care what feels right for me. I just want awaken to truth before I die.
Its the 'wanting' or perhaps the desire to attain thats probably getting in the way.

Look at the words more closely

Its the thoughts that should be given less credence, though 'taking no-thing seriously isn't bad advice either. :wink:
When the Pupil is ready the Master appears

Ives
Posts: 314
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:52 pm
Location: Tuscany, Italy

Re: Presence does not lead to enlightenment

Post by Ives » Wed Jan 16, 2008 2:34 am

Being present doesn’t lead to enlightenment, because it doesn’t lead anywhere.
It just is.

Five seconds of presence is better than a lifetime of yearning, hoping, crappy future-based nonsense that will cost you an arm and a leg.

Wake up and smell the daisies.

User avatar
Onceler
Posts: 2257
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2007 1:35 am
Location: My house

Re: Presence does not lead to enlightenment

Post by Onceler » Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:00 am

You going to believe some guy on the phone?

The NY Times Science section had an article today on a new theory on cosmology, opening paragraphs;

"It could be the weirdest and most embarrassing prediction in the history of cosmology, if not science.

If true, it would mean that you yourself reading this article are more likely to be some momentary fluctuation in a field of matter and energy out in space than a person with a real past born through billions of years of evolution in an orderly star-spangled cosmos. Your memories and the world you think you see around you are illusions."

Sound familiar?

Create your own truth, I guess.
Be present, be pleasant.

User avatar
Kutso
Posts: 884
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:27 pm
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden

Re: Presence does not lead to enlightenment

Post by Kutso » Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:29 pm

I think realization comes when one really realizes that there is nothing to realize. The ego always tries to understand everything, and that's the problem. It's when the ego falls away that you become awakened. And that was this Roger-guy right about I think, that it only happens. You can't make it happen. It's like your ego becomes tired and stops.

Adyashanti made a really great analogy about a man who runs. He is running around looking for rest. Along comed someone saying:

"Why are you running?"
"Well, I'm looking for rest."
"Rest? Well, just stop, then you will be resting."
"I can't. It's been so long. I don't remember how to stop."
"Okay. Keep looking then. Maybe you will find it at the next corner. And if it's not there,
maybe it's at the corner after that."

But ofcourse the runner will never find rest. But soon he will be tired, and then he just stops. His body just can't continue. And then he goes: "Aha! So that's rest. I get it now."

It's the same with the ego. It will get tired. And then it will just stop. And then you'll realize: "Aha! That's it!"

Kutso
Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that.

User avatar
Intel
Posts: 166
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2007 3:34 pm
Location: Near wild heaven

Re: Presence does not lead to enlightenment

Post by Intel » Wed Jan 16, 2008 1:08 pm

Well i'm going to a meeting with him next week and ask more questions. I want to see just how enlightened he really is.

I know I can't rely on other people for my enlightenment, but there is nothing wrong with seeking help. Especially if they're realised themselves.
I would lick your feet, but is that the sickest move?

Cleath
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:12 am
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Presence does not lead to enlightenment

Post by Cleath » Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:56 pm

Hi Intel,

This is link to a satsang given by a man of the name Mike Snider http://www.adyashanti.org/cafedharma/in ... rary_audio. He has been mentioned here previously. I felt it was well worth my $10. He seemed to cut through a lot of the conceptual stuff.

Best,

Chad

no won
Posts: 114
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2007 12:05 pm

Re: Presence does not lead to enlightenment

Post by no won » Thu Jan 17, 2008 3:49 am

Here is my 2 cents if anyones interseted lol. Realization is the absolute knowing that there is no person here to be realized. When this is known directly its all over and EVERYTHING is seen through as unreal or illusion. What is left to do then ? Only be-ing thats it. What is the egoic mind ? It can also be called "instinct". Ever living creature has instinct, the human instinct in action is thought itself. This thought based instinct is making an effort to survive by understanding, which of course cannot be done. Even if this much is seen through thought can loose its ( seeming ) power. Without " i " what is there ? If there is no personal " i " what is here ? There is no personal " I " for sure. What is having this experience, peel away the layers of belief in a person, who is doing it, it doesn't matter if it appears that YOU are doing it Do it anyway, and when its done you too will realise that no one actually did anything . Maybe I'm off the wall ha ha ! its so funny really 'cause there is no one here to care lol. No doubt " I " have ended another post here as is usually the case, maybe I'm not clear enough, words are so not there. peace from Self to Self.

EDIT :

This is such a good pointer from science by Onceler
If true, it would mean that you yourself reading this article are more likely to be some momentary fluctuation in a field of matter and energy out in space than a person with a real past born through billions of years of evolution in an orderly star-spangled cosmos.
Again these are just words and concept, nevertheless is it pointing out that : we as awareness are a " black hole " and not a person, everyTHING that is witnessed/percieved disolves in this black hole or awareness ? where does it go, how is it disolved ?? into no-thingness. Are we that no- thingness. Just a pointer not the truth or reality.

weichen
Posts: 734
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2006 1:37 am
Location: NYC

Re: Presence does not lead to enlightenment

Post by weichen » Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:58 pm

I told him that I read POW and Eckhart said to become enlightened you have to stay present. Then Roger said "I don't agree". Whaa??? He said that presence can alter your life experience but it won't lead you to truth. There is still the idea of a someone being present.

There are a lot of criticism on PON on the internet (e.g. book reviews from Amazon), but these criticism are made by unenlightened people. Roger seems to be at more advanced enlightenment level, his criticism is valid in my opinion. Let me clarify the criticism that "presence does not lead to enlightenment" a little.

1. In Tolle's defense (he does not need defense :) ), Tolle never said "presence lead to enlightenment", Tolle said enlightenment is "felt oneness with being". Tolle also said that many portals (presence, inhabit inner body, watch the mind, be alert, etc) belong to a group of portals (called "now portals"), that will allow you to get into the experience of true self, the "felt oneness with being". If you practice "presence" for a long time, you have experienced much lower mental noise, can easily extract yourself from mind domination, but you are puzzled for not having strong consistent experiences of "felt oneness with being", then re-read PON. Tolle has always used "begining of enlightenment" when he talked about the portals, he never say that these portals will carry you to advanced level of enlightenment. In fact, after the begining of enlightenment, some of the portals become a hindrance rather than a help (as Rodger pointed out), because it has a little me perspective.

2. Facing the current state of collective human insanity, Tolle does not need to worry too much about "overstating the importance of the NOW portals", the main concern of PON is to help majority of people on earth to be free of mind dominance, i.e. to get to the beginer level of enlightenment, not to carry humanity into advanced level of enlightenment.

3. We can look at the relationship between "presence, now" with "felt oneness with being" as bi-directional, rather than uni-directional. i.e. portal of now help you to experience who you are (oneness with being), and 'oneness with being' help you to experience the meanng of now. This form a nice circle. The second half of the circle (oneness with being helps you to understand "now") is not much discussed in PON.
Most students of PON probably thought they understood the word "now", I would suggest to them that they have wrong idea about this simple word. In a way, this is the key to cross the borderline between beginer enlightenment to advanced enlightenment. the meaning of NOW was too narrowly defined by the now portals (breathing, inhabit inner body, watch the mind), it gives the false impression that now = the present moment. But when you experience NOW from ascending to spiritual being (e.g. triggered by suffering), and see yourself as the deathless guiding angel (which will guide one little me after another little me), the meaning of NOW = eternity. With this enrichment of the meaning of NOW, and automatic letting go of all the now portals, you end your begining stage of enlightenment.

no won
Posts: 114
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2007 12:05 pm

Re: Presence does not lead to enlightenment

Post by no won » Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:31 am

you end your begining stage of enlightenment.
And " who " is going to do this wiechen, "me " still has a name here, its not me now its " begginer " There is no begining, stages, and no advancement. YOU ( not little "you " ) are already complete. On reading the post above there was a sense of desparation that began to germinate in the mind and observed in awareness. How can i do this, how will i know when i have it ( for keeps ) i can't do it or get it, etc,etc , on and on. In a word FEAR.

There is no " i " to do it or get it or loose it or know it ( yet its known ) who is there to fear. You are the Knower beyond what is Known, that which is aware of begining and ending ideas in mind. Yet there is NOT a knower, beyond even the concept of Knowing. Whatever is known that too will be lost. Imageless/knowningless open awareness thats it. Be That. No effort to BE.

User avatar
Webwanderer
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 6898
Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 12:03 am

Re: Presence does not lead to enlightenment

Post by Webwanderer » Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:08 am

Even from the imagined perspective of a little “I” there is a sense of being. It may be being lost in endless stories of what should, could or would, but there remains an awareness of events - albeit distorted. The precursor to awakening is freedom from the entrapment within those stories, and attachment to the belief in being a separate person. Those stories fuel the perception of the “me” identity.

The purpose of finding moments of silent, present awareness is to gain clarity on the distinction between living as ego/mind lost in thought; and an understanding of being not dependant upon thought at all, but existent being by virtue of awareness alone. I would agree that this presently aware state does not necessarily represent full awakening or enlightenment. Though silent of mind, there still lies the issue of distorting lenses through which life is perceived. By this I mean personal world views that are more subconscious than actively thought. Example: one may be silent of mind and presently aware, yet still believe the world a dangerous and fearful place, or any number of restrictive concepts about life.

While silence of mind is a precursor of awakened awareness, there is no certitude that strongly held belief systems will be seen as the distortions that they are. Genuine clarity requires perception beyond all subconscious belief systems. In truth, it requires seeing those belief systems with the same clarity that a silent perception recognizes a mind engaged in thought.

User avatar
Onceler
Posts: 2257
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2007 1:35 am
Location: My house

Re: Presence does not lead to enlightenment

Post by Onceler » Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:05 am

Thanks Intel for bringing this up. I guess it touched a nerve....I found that I just assumed I would become enlightened at some point and your post caused me to evaluate the truth of this.

I found that I don't know that this will happen, in fact it probably won't happen given the limited number of people in the world who are even supposedly enlightened (statistically far less than 1%?). I probably have a better chance of getting struck by lightening and winning the lottery at the same time.

Then I found a suprising thing. This is okay. Accepting the reality of this was kind of a relief. The enlightenment fantasy doesn't hold water for me when examined even a little bit. If I drop it there is relief, hmm.

I don't even know that enlightenment exists...is it real? A fantasy? I don't know.

My life is better since Tolle and others who helped me drop baggage. In fact my life is pretty darn good and seems to be getting better.

Besides, if it gets worse, then I can suffer...................and become enlightened!
Be present, be pleasant.

Post Reply