Presence does not lead to enlightenment

[no won]

Cool,

Then I found a suprising thing. This is okay. Accepting the reality of this was kind of a relief. The enlightenment fantasy doesn't hold water for me when examined even a little bit. If I drop it there is relief, hmm.

Congrats Onceler that is a major stumbling block disolving. Things will be even clearer Now. peace

[Onceler]

Congrats Onceler that is a major stumbling block disolving. Things will be even clearer Now. peace

Thanks..... we shall see about clearer.

[Intel]

Perhaps I didn't interpret Roger correctly. He said there is still the idea of a someone being present. Maybe if you just accept life and stop thinking that you're doing something the idea of being a person will fall away.

[no won]

He said there is still the idea of a someone being present. Maybe if you just accept life and stop thinking that you're doing something the idea of being a person will fall away.

Go with this little crack that is appearing, the person, body/mind isn't the life, its all that is encompassed in awareness which includes the very little idea that its the " personal ' experience that is it. That is the limited perspective of the "me" that its all revolving around me. Its happening with or without the idea of someone being present or not. Its not personal only the idea is.

[Joshua]

Perhaps I didn't interpret Roger correctly.

Either that or Roger did not interpret ET accurately. Either way I can smell the smoke coming out of your ears from thinking about it so much - which is a good sign!

P.S. Your signature is surprisingly suggestive, and your avatar is a bit disturbing.

[Intel]

Joshua thats a line out of an R.E.M. song 'E-bow the letter'.

[gdvant]

gv: what is not presence? You looking at thoughts is not presence.
That is distraction. You looking at the body, is not presence. When
you (the egoic mind) are there, presence is absent. Presence is not
something "you" do. Presence is an attention that emerges when the
mind is very quiet and orderly. But the mind is not made quiet or
made to be orderly by conforming to a pattern. When there is an
awareness of what is not present, the egoic mind, that awareness
is the seed of presence. Presence is a term used as an indicator
for what could be called observation without the observer. It is
a witnessing energy/attention empty of image-making.

You can't start out thinking that you are presence if that is
not a realized fact. The realization of being is not a matter of
belief. The difficulty is that most of the energy of the organism
is identified with or caught up in the movement of thought, in
the illusion of becoming. So it helps to be aware of what is
manifesting as the inner energy field of the body. Be aware
does not mean "you" are looking at it as if separate but rather
it reveals itself or awakens when the mind is still and silent.
Then when there is more energy that is free of the content,
that energy is available in moment to moment observation.

[Narz]

A few questions :

1) What is "enlightenment"?
2) How do you know it's real?
3) How do you gage who is really enlightened & who is full of shit?
4) Assuming enlightenment exists - How do you know what worked for them will work for you (after all, vastly different diets work for people as do vastly different hobbies, jobs & sexual partners)?
5) Why do you want to be enlightened anyway? What is so great about it?
6) If the path to enlightenment involved wearing women's underpants on your head 24/7 would you do it? What about if it required you to cut off an arm? How bad do you want it?

[weichen]

1) What is "enlightenment"?
2) How do you know it's real?
3) How do you gage who is really enlightened & who is full of shit?
4) Assuming enlightenment exists - How do you know what worked for them will work for you (after all, vastly different diets work for people as do vastly different hobbies, jobs & sexual partners)?
5) Why do you want to be enlightened anyway? What is so great about it?
6) If the path to enlightenment involved wearing women's underpants on your head 24/7 would you do it? What about if it required you to cut off an arm? How bad do you want it?

I will reorder the list of questions as below:
6)
Q: If the path to enlightenment involved wearing women's underpants on your head 24/7 would you do it? What about if it required you to cut off an arm? How bad do you want it?
A: In a broad sense, the path to enlightenment does indeed involve wearing women's underpants on the head and does require you to cut off an arm. That is the only way to be enlightened (see the little me as a robot, and the true me as the deathless awareness)

5)
Q: Why do you want to be enlightened anyway? What is so great about it?
A: When little me wears women's underpants on your head 24/7, and cut off an arm and be completely peaceful with that, the old mind value system collapses, and a lot of space is available. To the little me (little weichen), a robot, it not only gets a lot of space, it has found a simple way to keep regenerating space (through letting go). It uses the space to manifest beautiful forms in the field of science and technology, to resolve practical problems that humanity faces. It gets to discover what it is truly capable of accomplishing.

2)
Q: How do you know it's real?
A: when the regenerated space (after leting go) indeed supports the continuous and accelerated manifestation of magical forms that blow the little me's mind away.

4)
Q: Assuming enlightenment exists - How do you know what worked for them will work for you (after all, vastly different diets work for people as do vastly different hobbies, jobs & sexual partners)?
A: One needs a balance between space and form. When magic stop flowing, ask little me robot, is it because the robot holds on too tight and lack space, or is it because the robot has no clear practical goals to use the space.

3)
Q: How do you gage who is really enlightened & who is full of shit?
A: The little you robot does not really care whether other robots have updated their software to "enlightened version" or not. If a little him robot can help you, then ask it for help; if a little him robot benefits from your help, then give your help to it.

[no won]

That was well put weichen, very easy to understand, at the same time it is still in concepts and needs to be seen as that. Not trying to take away anything either brother.

[Ingvar]

The premiss that "anyone" gets enlightened is that there is an "I" in the first place.

Enlightenment happens. Just as everything else.
"Trying to do presence" is not going to "make enlightenment happen."


It is what it is.

[garuda]

Half of the mega-dudes claim that “desire” or the "search" itself is the last obstacle to true enlightenment;
The other half claim that true enlightenment doesn’t exist.
Pass the popcorn, please.

[Suzanne]

I just want awaken to truth before I die.

Intel- You're a student, right?

What's your rush? If you become enlightened in the first quarter of your life, you'll spend 3/4's of it surrounded by a bunch of slow-witted sufferers, following you around for 60 years demanding to be told in one sentence what enlightenment is! That doesn't sound like much fun to me!

Spend a couple of decades in this form, as a normal mortal. Suffer a little. Laugh a little. Love a little. Lose a little. Suffer a lot. Experience loss and acceptance, from others and for others. That's a good foundation to begin asking why you bothered to suffer at all.

Spending time as a little me is the prerequisite course for examining life and learning from it. You evolve from experience, not facts and figures.

You'll only feel enlightened when you no longer feel at a loss, no longer need it to be satisfied, and no longer look anywhere for answers.
Stillness,
Suzanne

[Intel]

How did you guess my age Suzanne? Well anyway I may be relatively young, but I truly think I've suffered enough in this life. I just don't need anymore, I have nothing further to learn from it, so it just seems pointless. And I'm not sure I would have sufferers following me around. As I understand it, most enlightened people don't become teachers or even tell anyone they're enlightened. Some see no point in telling anyone, because when you become enlightened all you realize is that there is awakeness. But there was always awakeness, so it seems ludicrous to go around telling anyone.

Actually last week was funny. Over at Linden's house he said again that there is nothing you can do to help speed along enlightenment. So I asked why other teachers recommend meditation, and he supposed it was because of tradition. He said there is no actual barrier to enlightenment. He wondered why some teachers tell you that you are the eternal in one sentence, then go on to say "But this is what you need to do to realize it".

Whether or not I wake up, I'll at least practice acceptance of everything that comes into my life. 'Good' or 'bad'. I makes a big difference. Thanks for the comment Suzanne.

[BrahmanEternal]

Intel you can speed enlightenment, just take some acid , i m kidding, i think the conclusion of "do or not do" threads is that there really is some hard work ahead of us so dont get lazy.
BTW, i think i understand why Tolle tried acid.