Presence does not lead to enlightenment

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minaret
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Re: Presence does not lead to enlightenment

Post by minaret » Wed May 21, 2008 10:36 am

Extremely interesting posts... even though Ive just found it, I felt I wanted to add something, if you'll allow me.

I reading the following last night:
Here is the word from a subatomic physicist: 'Everything that has already happened is particles, everything in the future is waves' ... The present is the wave that explodes over my head, flinging the air with particles at the height of its breathless unroll, it is the live water and light that bears from undisclosed sources the freshest news, renewed and renewing, world without end"
Annie Dillard's Pilgrim at Tinker Creek.

You can't run into enlightenment with nets, baits, chains, straight-jackets, and words. You wait for it, empty handed, open & soft.
"I hope for nothing. I fear nothing. I am free". Kazantzakis

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heidi
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Re: Presence does not lead to enlightenment

Post by heidi » Wed May 21, 2008 3:14 pm

You can't run into enlightenment with nets, baits, chains, straight-jackets, and words. You wait for it, empty handed, open & soft.
That one's worth printing out and sticking to the fridge. :) But, you need not wait for it, as it's already there.
Heidi
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wonderment on the third wave

gdvant
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Re: Presence does not lead to enlightenment

Post by gdvant » Wed Jun 25, 2008 1:23 am

"Lead to" implies time or becoming. Presence pertains to a dimension untouched by time.

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+Jim+
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Re: Presence does not lead to enlightenment

Post by +Jim+ » Fri Jun 27, 2008 1:59 pm

maybe you'd like to ponder the following:-

I cannot be vegetarian whilst eating a hamburger

in the same way

I cannot be at peace in the present whilst I am seeking realisation/salvation/enlightenment

:idea:
Intellectual understanding is totally inadequate for meeting daily life.
It's like attempting to nourish yourself on the memory of yesterday's lunch!


http://simplyenlightening.wordpress.com/about/

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Sighclone
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Re: Presence does not lead to enlightenment

Post by Sighclone » Sat Jun 28, 2008 7:19 am

Welcome +Jim+; we hope you enjoy your stay. Oddly, your supposed paradox is not actually a paradox. Indeed, enlightenment, just like bowel movements, occurs in the present. So does seeking, breathing and dying. It's all in the present. So if you "get enlightened" like Eckhart did, it will happen Now. Sometimes the present is not particularly peaceful, but most of the time it is. And it's possible to have a very "empty" present moment, even empty of the feeling of peace.

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Presence does not lead to enlightenment

Post by +Jim+ » Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:35 pm

Hi Andy - thanks for the welcome.

the simplicity and subtlety of this is easily missed..... there is only the present, so whatever is happening is happening in the present..... enlightenment and the seeking of it are mutually exclusive.

I would also like to clarify that one does not get enlightened..... there is either clarity in the present or not..... and clarity cannot be held or taken into the future. Anyone who claims enlightenment or projects enlightened on another is just caught up in an idea.

Finally Paradox
In fact there are no paradoxes, only contradictions in thought........... duality also...... there is no duality...... only the idea of duality

All the best
Jim

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Re: Presence does not lead to enlightenment

Post by Sighclone » Mon Jun 30, 2008 6:55 pm

+Jim+

I usually disagree and argue with absolutist statements like yours. I'm not going to do that here, but let me present my stock argument. The traditional Advaitic ontological monism is very strict. Brahman Unity in Being is all there is, and everything else (thought, matter, time, diarrhea, etc. ) is all maya. Maybe Maharshi lived there. I don't. And I'm guessing you don't either.

But let's say that you do. Maharshi was generally silent, and basically taught from there. But we live in maya, and most of the posts on this forum come from some level of consciousness "below" or at least different from Absolute or Unity consciousness. Mine certainly do. And for us, the simple statement that every thought, perception, observation, feeling, particle and wave are simply manifestations of the Absolute should really just be a footnote...because we can't experience that just by reading it. So we need to read something else.

I agree with this:
there is either clarity in the present or not..... and clarity cannot be held or taken into the future.
However, life can be lived in the now, or in an infintely small sequence of 'present moments.' And we can have clarity in that life. In every present moment of that life. I don't. But at some point I might. And then my "Now" will be different than it is today. And then I will be enlightened. And someone else with a big clock and calendar will look at my life and say: "at some point he got enlightened."

So, by reference to 'clock time' (as used by Eckhart Tolle), a person marches through his life for 29 years and then 'gets' enlightened. The irony here is that it is only after the final veil falls that the enlightened person recognizes that his 'shift' was a removal of an artificial barrier, not the 'gaining' of something new.

It's all semantics...stick around +JIm+ - we like swordfights on the field of Arjuna!

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Presence does not lead to enlightenment

Post by +Jim+ » Tue Jul 01, 2008 7:30 am

Hi Andy
I usually disagree and argue with absolutist statements like yours. I'm not going to do that here, but let me present my stock argument.
I would recommend that you don't use stock arguments and investigate afresh.
Until you realise that your intellect isn't the tool for investigation you will obscure reality with your ideas of reality.
However, life can be lived in the now, or in an infintely small sequence of 'present moments.'
Even 'Now' has been turned into a concept here......
So, by reference to 'clock time' (as used by Eckhart Tolle), a person marches through his life for 29 years and then 'gets' enlightened. The irony here is that it is only after the final veil falls that the enlightened person recognizes that his 'shift' was a removal of an artificial barrier, not the 'gaining' of something new.
And here Enlightenment has been reduced to a concept.....
It's all semantics...stick around +JIm+ - we like swordfights on the field of Arjuna!
I have no interest in intellectual duelling..... but there are plenty of others you can play those games with.

I repeat what I said at the beginning as it's significance is central to my response....
Until you realise that your intellect isn't the tool for investigation you will obscure reality with your ideas of reality.

Just before hitting 'Submit' I re-read my response and it may be seen as quite harsh.... I definitely mean you no harm :-)

sincerely
Jim

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Re: Presence does not lead to enlightenment

Post by HermitLoon » Tue Jul 01, 2008 3:31 pm

No words are "Truth" -
"Truth" is beyond words -
words are simply approximate descriptions of awareness and experience - subject to interpretation based on our own awareness and experience. :)
Peace

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+Jim+
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Re: Presence does not lead to enlightenment

Post by +Jim+ » Tue Jul 01, 2008 8:39 pm

There is a world of difference between words in the service of perception, and words in the service of concepts.
Intellectual understanding is totally inadequate for meeting daily life.
It's like attempting to nourish yourself on the memory of yesterday's lunch!


http://simplyenlightening.wordpress.com/about/

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