Vegetarian

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Glycine
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Re: Vegetarian

Post by Glycine » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:19 pm

I fully support synthesizing food in the lab from air and water.
I'm really looking forward to drinking aminoacid soup and swallowing compressed glucides and lipids. I'm even willing to take them iv.

I think we should stop eating plants and animals. At a cellular level, plants suffer just as much as animals. The land where the plants that we eat are grown is taken away from wild animals. The insects and animals that try to trespass are killed just to protect the plants. Agriculture produces countless environmental problems, just like animal farming.

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Webwanderer
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Re: Vegetarian

Post by Webwanderer » Tue Dec 16, 2008 6:57 pm

Trev wrote: We have the capacity to reason and make decisions based on that -- is it right or wrong. To inflict suffering/death unnessesarily is always wrong. It would certainly be seen that way if it were humans on the wrong end --and i'm sure Tolle would agree with that!

Trev
The story of Adam and Eve warns against this very thing. They were warned against eating of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (adopting the inclination to make judgments). The reason is that it separates us from the whole of being which even apparently heinous acts are a part of. It is a slippery slope that reinforces the ego perception of life. We can only see the surface issues, whether it be in rape and murder, war, or any of the other myriad "sins" of life in form. Who can say what life lessons are learned in adversity?

Can we say nature is wrong, merely because it inflicts suffering/death unnecessarily? "But those are natural occurances". Are we not also an expression of Nature in form, albeit under somewhat different rules of lucidity?

I'm not suggesting that this gives license to do anything one has a whim to do. I am suggesting that there is a larger picture here that hard judgments of right vs wrong will isolate us from. Withholding judgment does not validate the harmful action, it merely allows us to see it with greater clarity; and in that clarity more effective response may be found.

WW

randomguy
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Re: Vegetarian

Post by randomguy » Tue Dec 16, 2008 10:53 pm

@Webwanderer Nicely put.
Do the yellow-rose petals
tremble and fall
at the rapid's roar?
- Basho

wolfwithin
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Re: Vegetarian

Post by wolfwithin » Wed Dec 17, 2008 4:36 pm

"I fully support synthesizing food in the lab from air and water.
I'm really looking forward to drinking aminoacid soup and swallowing compressed glucides and lipids. I'm even willing to take them iv."

As a holistic health practitioner, I sincerely hope you're kidding about this! How unnatural and unholy a thing would this be to do to the human body. There are already plenty of synthesized foods that are being placed in institutional and packaged foods that are known carcinogens (research torula yeast as protein for example). I honor all animal and plant life, but I'm not willing to sacrifice humankind to show compassion for living things!
A healthy case can be made on both sides of the meat-eater vs vegan arguments, and I work with people who choose all kinds of diets. Some people eat only free-range animals and organically grown vegetables. Some folks eat for their blood type, some eat only raw foods. I firmly believe that what personally gives your body health and peace of mind is the right diet for you.
Just as we honor different spiritual paths so we should honor different dietary paths, lest we appear to be touting ourselves as more superior than others because of our personal preferences.

Glycine
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Re: Vegetarian

Post by Glycine » Wed Dec 17, 2008 5:38 pm

Food synthesized in the lab is a personal choice for me.
All food products (animal or veggie) are finally broken down to a few simple small molecules by our digestive system. Any food (or part of the food) that cannot be broken in small molecules is eliminated from the body in a well-known manner. Other cells/animals with better digestive systems can continue to break down these residues.
All these small molecules can be basically synthesized in the lab from air (with carbon dioxide) and water - although the process is not yet convenient from an economical point of view.
The toxic/carcinogenic products that you are talking about are poorly designed products that are intended to be similar to normal foods.
These basic molecules (the only ones that our body absorbs from food) are given in hospitals by iv perfusion to patients who are unable to eat.
If I was given a choice between plant, animal, and synthetic soup (with all the basic molecules) - I would go for the soup.
I am convinced that in a few hundred years such foods will be widely available - they will also allow us to explore the outer space without carrying animals and vegetable fields with us!

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domokato
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Re: Vegetarian

Post by domokato » Wed Dec 17, 2008 8:19 pm

Glycine,

I haven't heard of this technology. Can you provide a link so I can read more about it? I guess now that I think about it, you got carbon, oxygen, and hydrogen in the air and water, with trace amounts of nitrogen, so I guess you could technically make sugars and proteins out of it somehow. I imagine it would take a whole lot of air to make a meal though, haha!
~housecat

Glycine
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Re: Vegetarian

Post by Glycine » Thu Dec 18, 2008 2:09 pm

Hello Domokato,

The air does not contain traces of nitrogen - it contains a lot of nitrogen: 79% by volume.
You can't find much information about this on the internet, but you can easily find it in any organic chemistry handbook, for example:
General, organic, and biological chemistry : an integrated approach
Raymond, Kenneth William

Don't worry about the volume of air: all plants are using air and water to synthesize carbohydrates. And all animals and humans are eating the food prepared by plants from air and water. Most plants cannot absorb nitrogen from the air though, and they must find a source of nitrogen in the soil. This is why most artificial fertilizers contain lots of nitrogen. Nevertheless, there are several species of bacteria who can absorb nitrogen even from air. Also, some nitrogen from air is transformed in oxides during storms and ends up in the soil. And, regardless of the volume of air needed, everything we consume this way is recyclable!!!
Anyway, the technology is too costly at the moment - it is much more convenient to let the plants use energy from the sun and do the work for us. The animals are processing some plants further, and we take advantage of them as well.
I hope this will all change when we'll be able to conveniently use energy from the sun to synthesize food!

wolfwithin
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Re: Vegetarian

Post by wolfwithin » Thu Dec 18, 2008 2:24 pm

"...it is much more convenient to let the plants use energy from the sun and do the work for us. The animals are processing some plants further, and we take advantage of them as well."
And this is natural.

You have a right to your desires, but I can't see the wisdom in using this type of technology for any purpose other than keeping someone alive while their body heals to the point that it can take over its natural functions.

Glycine
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Re: Vegetarian

Post by Glycine » Thu Dec 18, 2008 5:01 pm

Indeed, everything comes down to personal choice.
In my opinion: Just as we stopped using "natural horses/bulls" for transportation and pigeons for communication, we will eventually stop using plants and animals for food - but we need a few more hundred years.

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+Jim+
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Re: Vegetarian

Post by +Jim+ » Sun Dec 21, 2008 10:52 am

Just because we have always done it (eaten meat) doesnt mean that we should always carry on doing it.

Humans have probably always engaged in war but it doesnt mean to say we should accept that and carry on butchering each other in the same old way.

We have the capacity to reason and make decisions based on that -- is it right or wrong. To inflict suffering/death unnessesarily is always wrong. It would certainly be seen that way if it were humans on the wrong end --and i'm sure Tolle would agree with that!

Trev
The point that Trev is making here is that to inflict suffering unnecessarily is wrong......
Take away the word wrong if you are getting tripped up by it.......
When there is intelligence and sensitivity why would one inflict unnecessary suffering?
So really, what is being pointed to is that only in one's insensitivity does one cause suffering to another (be the other animal or human).
Many habits are deeply ingrained, there is also often little interest in questioning ones pleasurable habits......
It is clear that for the vast majority of people, eating meat is unnecessary....... if one does eat meat it might be interesting to explore ones reasons.
Intellectual understanding is totally inadequate for meeting daily life.
It's like attempting to nourish yourself on the memory of yesterday's lunch!


http://simplyenlightening.wordpress.com/about/

Tara
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Re: Vegetarian

Post by Tara » Sun Dec 21, 2008 4:56 pm

reading Jim's post struck something with me...yes I eat meat and I haven't questioned it too much as it is a pleasurable thing..and thinking of questioning it now is scary because I "feel" it might lead to ....many other "unpleasant" thoughts and in turn change my eating habits???

Which I feel need changing but no meat??? I don't like the "thought" of that...

Anyways this discussion has given me something to "think" about...lol

Thank you!

Glycine
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Re: Vegetarian

Post by Glycine » Mon Dec 22, 2008 6:00 pm

"The time will come when men such as I will look on the murder of animals as they now look on the murder of men"
- Leonardo da Vinci

I would extend it to say that soon the time will come to give up eating plants as well.

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Re: Vegetarian

Post by ginkgo » Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:39 am

A lot of things are left up to you to decide. While young, you can eat anything and be healthy. As you get older your arteries are more in danger of hurting or killing you. The vegan diet is best for the arteries. An MD says that people cannot have cholesterol levels of 150 unless taking medications. The exception is if people have vegan diets they can. See this site for more on how your diet affects you: High Blood Pressure :D Only animal foods contain cholesterol.

James
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Re: Vegetarian

Post by James » Mon Jan 05, 2009 5:01 am

I think this thread is mostly a distraction/diversion from spiritual realization. As WW mentioned, when it comes to awakening, the only eating we need to be concerned about is partaking of the "fruit of the knowledge of good and evil". That is what we are doing when we make judgments of good or bad, wrong or right, which puts us back in duality and the sense of separation. Eating is relatively important from a health and well being perspective but it has little to do with spiritual realization. There are stories of people that suffered from malnutrition and starvation in World War 2 concentration camps, that experienced profound inner realization of their true nature.

Live from Presence and let that wisdom guide your choices in life including eating. As wolfwithin stated, everyone's physicality is different and has varying nutritional needs.

J.
"Awareness is already present, already here, already now; before you try to be more.... In that recognition there's no effort, there's just acknowledgment"..."Awareness is not something you can understand, it's something you are."

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Re: Vegetarian

Post by Sighclone » Mon Jan 05, 2009 5:16 am

Thanks, James...my sentiments exactly.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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