Eckhart teaches dualism

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Intel
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Eckhart teaches dualism

Post by Intel » Tue May 27, 2008 4:48 pm

The following is an excerpt from Tony Parsons book called 'As it is'.

Tony, traditional teachers tell us that one of the barriers to awareness is the runaway mind going into the past and into the future. Eckhart Tolle, for example. I think thats most peoples experience, but you don't talk about that. And when you say the mind, do you mean the thinking, its the thinking that is a barrier because its not accepting?

There is no barrier. The mind is only a collection of thoughts, and thoughts are not the barrier. Nothing is the barrier-except the idea that there is a barrier. And even that is an invitation.

When the thoughts are living incidents from twenty years ago or what might happen in ten years, aren't they a barrier?

No, they're just thoughts about what might happen in ten years' time.

They're not carrying one away from the present?

They are just thoughts. You can't be carried away from this- you are this, and what arises in this is the thought about what's going to happen in ten years' time.

It's really different to other teachers.

It is totally different. Let's be very clear about this- that sort of teaching comes from the misunderstanding that there is a someone there who thinks, and that thinking takes them away from what they are. There is no one there, and there is also no one there who can choose to think or not to think. There is simply one; there is only awareness. And anything can arise in that awareness, including the thought of whats going to happen in ten years' time.

The trouble with the mind is that it's very tricky, and the guru will convince people- and it's a fascinating idea- that thoughts are like the devil. Thoughts are oneness, thought-ing.

It's interesting because it seemed to be that Eckhart woke up because he almost went crazy - but then in his book he's giving a description of how you can wake up which has nothing to do with that. He's giving a method, a method of sensing inside the body.

It's a dualistic teaching - it's teaching about the idea there is someone there who can do something about not being there.
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Re: Eckhart teaches dualism

Post by Sighclone » Tue May 27, 2008 5:20 pm

It's a dualistic teaching - it's teaching about the idea there is someone there who can do something about not being there.
I do not understand this sentence. It feels wrong, but before I comment on it, can someone please explain it to me?

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Eckhart teaches dualism

Post by James » Tue May 27, 2008 5:39 pm

Dear Intel
Could you look for the experience within to gain internal validation of what is true?
As long as one needs external validation from others, as to what is true, uncertainty will arise.
Stay with whatever principles appeal to you, practice them consistently; if after a good try, you don't find it is flowing for you, find another approach. There is no right or wrong way really. All roads eventually lead to the same place, the experience of the true Self. Given, some paths have more obstacles, distractions and detours than others, but that is OK, enjoy the ride.

Regards
James
"Awareness is already present, already here, already now; before you try to be more.... In that recognition there's no effort, there's just acknowledgment"..."Awareness is not something you can understand, it's something you are."

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Re: Eckhart teaches dualism

Post by Intel » Tue May 27, 2008 5:40 pm

I'll explain as best as I can. Sighclone that sentence means there is not seperate a 'I'. It is not located in the body or anywhere else. Therefore if there is not an individual 'I' in the body, the body's actions must be automatic(or spontaneous). This means there is no one inside the body to choose to act a certain way, because if that were true, then that would be dualism.

The sentence means Eckhart is implying there is a seperate 'I' located within the body that can choose to stay present, or not stay present. Tony Parsons is saying this is dualistic.
Last edited by Intel on Tue May 27, 2008 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Eckhart teaches dualism

Post by Intel » Tue May 27, 2008 5:42 pm

Hi James. My own experience has validated what Tony Parsons' say's to be true. There is only ever this, whether it be daydreaming or 'staying present'. Even not being present can only arise in your own presence.
I would lick your feet, but is that the sickest move?

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Re: Eckhart teaches dualism

Post by Sighclone » Tue May 27, 2008 5:58 pm

It's always good to quote the source. On page 22 of PON, he says the ego is "the false self created by unconscious identification with the mind." False self means false "I". There is a real "I" which is unity consciousness or as he says in the September 2007 Oprah Soul Series, rewebcast last night: " You are the present moment." You ain't even a person. Yer just "the present moment." No duality between two "I's". And you know what? The concept of ego is just a thought also. We just tend to 'think' it is a real 'self' that we are.

Now, as to choice. Descartes said, wrongly, "cogito ergo sum" or "I think, therefore I am." But free will and the opportunity to choose does define us. Parsons chose to write those words. You and I choose to read them. Oprah chose to wear a green dress last Tuesday. I could choose to punch Parsons. That would remind him that he has a body and some feelings. It would remind me that there was such thing as a jail. Separate humans making separate choices. That is the world of maya that we live in. Is Parsons denying that?

Here is more Parsons:
I cannot ‘do’ presence, simply because I am presence. So there is no process to learn because I cannot learn or achieve something that I already am. Presence is totally effortless and is nearer to me than breathing. Presence only requires me to recognize and allow it.
Now that sounds like Eckhart...or many other non-dualists...

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Eckhart teaches dualism

Post by James » Tue May 27, 2008 6:15 pm

Intel
All teachings are just pointers or approximations of the truth.

"The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao" (The Tao Te Ching)

Find your internal Tao, it is not localized in a body, it can't be confined to a finite dimension, Eckhart's teaching is not limited to that concept, the body is actually experienced in your consciousness, (even that is just another pointer though). When you experience the truth, you will no longer feel the need to debate its validity, or analyze teachings intellectually. Also you will no longer need any road maps from so called experts, because you will find you are the destination, and "you" have always been there within your being, you only dreamed otherwise.

Enjoy
James
"Awareness is already present, already here, already now; before you try to be more.... In that recognition there's no effort, there's just acknowledgment"..."Awareness is not something you can understand, it's something you are."

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Re: Eckhart teaches dualism

Post by James » Tue May 27, 2008 6:52 pm

Mason posted this poem in another thread but it is worth repeating here:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For the grace of the presence, be grateful.
Touch the cloth of the robe,
but do not pull it toward you,
or like an arrow it will leave the bow.

Images. Presence plays with form,
fleeing and hiding as the sky does in water,
now one place, now nowhere.

Imagination cannot contain the absolute.
These poems are elusive
because the presence is.

I love the rose that is not a rose,
but the second I try to speak it,
any name for God becomes so-and-so and vanishes.

What you thought to draw lifts off the paper
as what you love slips from your heart.

~Rumi
"Awareness is already present, already here, already now; before you try to be more.... In that recognition there's no effort, there's just acknowledgment"..."Awareness is not something you can understand, it's something you are."

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Re: Eckhart teaches dualism

Post by HermitLoon » Tue May 27, 2008 7:01 pm

Peace and Joy
Last edited by HermitLoon on Fri May 30, 2008 3:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
Peace

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Re: Eckhart teaches dualism

Post by kiki » Tue May 27, 2008 8:29 pm

ET implies nondualism but teaches as though there is an "I". I feel that ET doesn't want to scare a lot of people away by stating outright that there is no "I". This is what gets Parsons' underwear all bunched up. I don't know why he can't discern the obvious message of ET unless he hasn't really read him. ET has used Ramana's self-inquiry question "Who am I?" (is there anyone more respected than Ramana, more prominent among nondualists?), the purpose of which is to turn awareness back onto itself, and he talks about the false sense of self, the "little me"/ego. Well, if it is a "false" sense of self then what is the "true" self? He clearly states that we are the underlying formless awareness, and that there is but one awareness and that everything arises out of it. Now, if that isn't nondualism nothing is.

I find it ironic that for someone who doesn't "exist" Parsons can get mighty testy when it comes to other teachers, and he can be quite rude in his disagreement. Of course he can dismiss any disagreement as part of the unfolding of the present moment, which happens to no one. And you know what? He'd be right. Personally (HA!) I'm in alignment with Parsons' ideas (that's why I continually tell people to find this "I" who has "problems"), but I don't sense the presence through his teaching like I do through ET.
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Re: Eckhart teaches dualism

Post by Intel » Wed May 28, 2008 1:49 pm

Sighclone wrote:Now, as to choice. Descartes said, wrongly, "cogito ergo sum" or "I think, therefore I am." But free will and the opportunity to choose does define us. Parsons chose to write those words. You and I choose to read them. Oprah chose to wear a green dress last Tuesday. I could choose to punch Parsons. That would remind him that he has a body and some feelings. It would remind me that there was such thing as a jail. Separate humans making separate choices. That is the world of maya that we live in. Is Parsons denying that?
Actually yes, Tony Parsons is denying that. It only 'seems' as if we have free choice, but if there truly is no seperate 'I', then how can we make individual choices in reality? Either there are seperate beings who have free will, or there are apparent beings who's lives are automatic-or spontaneous.
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Re: Eckhart teaches dualism

Post by mikel » Wed May 28, 2008 1:52 pm

I came across a clip of a talk Tony Parsons gave where he said some of Ramana Maharshi's teachings were dualistic, and in the realm of language and ideas, you could probably find evidence of this, as you may also in the teachings of ET.

Tony seems to embody a no nonsense approach, very direct and it can appear somewhat shocking for some, still his is just another approach or style.

Being able to observe many different teachers, it's quiet clear that they are all pointing to the same thing, regardless of their abilities to give one an infallible taste of the reality to which they are pointing.

Ultimately It's all about you, if something "genuine" gets a hold of you, and you are open and willing enough to be open to it, whatever form it takes, eventually you will begin to get a taste of that reality.

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Re: Eckhart teaches dualism

Post by kiki » Wed May 28, 2008 2:06 pm

Well said, mikel.
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Re: Eckhart teaches dualism

Post by Webwanderer » Wed May 28, 2008 2:26 pm

Intel wrote: Actually yes, Tony Parsons is denying that. It only 'seems' as if we have free choice, but if there truly is no seperate 'I', then how can we make individual choices in reality? Either there are seperate beings who have free will, or there are apparent beings who's lives are automatic-or spontaneous.
Your either/or restriction is a block to greater understanding. These two definitions may not be the only possibilities.

Could humanity not be expressions of a universal, infinite being who has free will, but is limited by the false perception of existance as an individualize separate person? Could that perception not offer a certain degree of freedom of choice and action based upon the potential of the adopted form and its conceptual identity? If life was merely a biological/mechanical function, your argument against free will might have merrit. However, just because an ego is an adopted perspective of a greater being does not mean that the life energy that adopted it turns into an automaton.

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Re: Eckhart teaches dualism

Post by James » Wed May 28, 2008 3:12 pm

In one of his talks, Eckhart brings up the question: Is the world of form an illusion? The audience is waiting for an answer and he pauses and says "leave it", and jokes "you were waiting for an answer". He is saying, don't try to figure it out, just accept what is appearing now. He goes on to say (paraphrasing): even an illusion must have a degree of reality or it would not exist at all.

The formless appears to express itself in a myriad of individual forms, (hologram or not).

A Course In Miracles emphasizes that the only real choice we can make is to accept or deny our spiritual inheritance, which is to say live out from our source, the one source of all, or continue to live out from a dream state. Nothing is ever separate from the one, there is only the dream of separation. The only duality occurs in the mind that dreams of separation.

So then, the most important question we need to ask ourselves is: what is my relationship to my source right now? It always begins with the individual, that is the meaningful choice we can make.

James
"Awareness is already present, already here, already now; before you try to be more.... In that recognition there's no effort, there's just acknowledgment"..."Awareness is not something you can understand, it's something you are."

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