Revelation

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+Jim+
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Revelation

Post by +Jim+ » Thu Jul 03, 2008 9:18 am

For those who are willing to explore, the following exercise can have tremendous impact:

Observe nature without naming it; observe a tree or flower or rocks or lichen or whatever is available.
Explore observing without naming.
The shape, the texture, the smell, the play of light, the movement in the breeze or the stillness....... Just observe.

When there is a very clear sense of observation without naming, observe your body.

Observe the breath, the movement of the body as it breathes, the sensations in the nose and throat, there may be audible sound, observe the contact with the ground or seat or bed or whatever else the body's weight rests on.
Observe the sensations in the body; aches or itching or tingling or trembling or whatever else is there......... Just observe.

When there is a very clear sense of this observation without naming, observe thought.
Observe thought without naming or judging or comparing..... Just observe.

When you are simply observing thought without naming or judging or trying to shape in any way, and if the investigation hasn't happened spontaneously, investigate thought.
What is thought? What is its nature?

Don't use a single second-hand answer, whether from the most revered teacher, your own past or anyone else’s statements.
Ask the question and then just observe what happens next.

If you truly ask and don't answer from memory you will discover the true nature of thought - it will be revealed.
This cannot be over-emphasized...... if you don't accept a single second-hand answer then there will be revelation.

Now any question can be asked and the truth discovered.
What is suffering? What am I? Who am I? What is time? What is love?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Affectionately
Jim
Intellectual understanding is totally inadequate for meeting daily life.
It's like attempting to nourish yourself on the memory of yesterday's lunch!


http://simplyenlightening.wordpress.com/about/

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Onceler
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Re: Revelation

Post by Onceler » Thu Jul 03, 2008 2:45 pm

What I am more interested in is whether you have done this and what happened to you? Could you talk about this on a personal level? i have mixed results with things like this. Some days things (thoughts, mind garbage) fade and awareness just pops, other days I am caught in the mind hamster wheel.

Did this come naturally for you--just start to happen, or did it progress over time? Is time important to this practice?
Be present, be pleasant.

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+Jim+
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Re: Revelation

Post by +Jim+ » Thu Jul 03, 2008 3:10 pm

Hello Onceler,
Second-hand experience in this arena is of no value to me.
I only write what is true for me.

I guarantee that first-hand experience for you would be far more interesting than any descriptions I can give.
Moreover, I see that descriptions can lead another into imagination and away from the real work at hand.

I cannot emphasize enough the importance of investigating thought until there is an insight.
At that point the answer to all questions becomes available.

Can you stay with the enquiry and not accept a single second-hand answer?
Intellectual understanding is totally inadequate for meeting daily life.
It's like attempting to nourish yourself on the memory of yesterday's lunch!


http://simplyenlightening.wordpress.com/about/

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Onceler
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Re: Revelation

Post by Onceler » Thu Jul 03, 2008 4:22 pm

+Jim+ wrote:Hello Onceler,
Second-hand experience in this arena is of no value to me.
I only write what is true for me.

I guarantee that first-hand experience for you would be far more interesting than any descriptions I can give.
Moreover, I see that descriptions can lead another into imagination and away from the real work at hand.

I cannot emphasize enough the importance of investigating thought until there is an insight.
At that point the answer to all questions becomes available.

Can you stay with the enquiry and not accept a single second-hand answer?
+Jim+

That's a good question. My belief at this time is that the experiences of others greatly informs my direct experience. When Kiki or WW or anyone else (particularily those in pain and struggling) describe their own personal experiences, they seem to have a far more profound affect and resonance with me than just spiritual talk in the abstraction.

Adyashanti said in an interview, sorry I don't have a link or quote, that he felt people who were in the group with his teacher had a much more profound experience than other zen groups because she encouraged direct discussion and talking about experiences. He believed these discussions, apres du meditation, at his teachers house were a catalyst to his awakening.

I see this forum as such a catalyst and an important augmentation to my direct inquiry. Those honest, heartfelt, posts have more resonance with me and have pushed me more deeply into my personal inquiry turning second-hand exerience into valuable fuel and direction for my own experience.

This may just be me and not be true for others, I don't know. I accept your reluctance to talk about your personal experiences, of course, but would still be fascinated in them if they are at some point forthcoming.

Thanks,
Be present, be pleasant.

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Re: Revelation

Post by HermitLoon » Thu Jul 03, 2008 8:57 pm

The expansion of consciousness to awareness, it seems, has no need of external influences - and yet, at the same time, unexpected experiences arise "on their own" on the "journey" - without efforting or need.
Peace

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Onceler
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Re: Revelation

Post by Onceler » Thu Jul 03, 2008 9:08 pm

HermitLoon wrote:The expansion of consciousness to awareness, it seems, has no need of external influences - and yet, at the same time, unexpected experiences arise "on their own" on the "journey" - without efforting or need.
What do you mean by external and internal? Some would say the external is our internal projections and what we need...(Byron Katie)
Be present, be pleasant.

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Re: Revelation

Post by HermitLoon » Fri Jul 04, 2008 12:33 am

The common usage meanings of the words in language during the mind/body/other consciousness of the human experience relating to the conceptual "self"
Peace

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Re: Revelation

Post by dutchred » Fri Jul 04, 2008 1:56 am

Those honest, heartfelt, posts have more resonance with me and have pushed me more deeply into my personal inquiry turning second-hand exerience into valuable fuel and direction for my own experience.
My experience exactly, Onceler. And when people have breakthroughs, I immediately want to make those breakthroughs my own. In the end, it doesn't seem to matter whether it was a competitive "little me" rising to the challenge, or a deep yearning of Being to understand its true nature--it all brings me to the same place.

Thanks so much for your post--

dutchred

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Re: Revelation

Post by +Jim+ » Fri Jul 04, 2008 8:32 am

Hi Onceler
...they seem to have a far more profound affect and resonance with me than just spiritual talk in the abstraction.
You may need to re-examine your use of the word 'abstraction'.
What was written above was a simple step-by-step, concrete, do-able exercise - as far from abstract as you can get!

What Adyashanti was referring to was sharing discoveries..... actual discoveries made, not discussing other peoples discoveries - that's abstraction for you.

When people on this forum share discoveries, then yes, they can be explored for oneself (explore means to examine, not think about) - that has real potential, and if you reconsider, you will see that that was exactly what I was doing with this post.

I wish you well.
Jim
Intellectual understanding is totally inadequate for meeting daily life.
It's like attempting to nourish yourself on the memory of yesterday's lunch!


http://simplyenlightening.wordpress.com/about/

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Onceler
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Re: Revelation

Post by Onceler » Fri Jul 04, 2008 1:59 pm

+Jim+ wrote:Hi Onceler
...they seem to have a far more profound affect and resonance with me than just spiritual talk in the abstraction.
What Adyashanti was referring to was sharing discoveries..... actual discoveries made, not discussing other peoples discoveries - that's abstraction for you.

When people on this forum share discoveries, then yes, they can be explored for oneself (explore means to examine, not think about) - that has real potential, and if you reconsider, you will see that that was exactly what I was doing with this post.
Okay, forget abstractions. What actual discoveries have you made for yourself through this excercise?

I am sorry if it seems I am taking out some of my frustrations with this forum on you, you absolutely don't deserve it, being reletively new here. Let's move things away from a personal discussion, I get where you are coming from, and you need to understand I am all about self discovery.

There is great advice and support for newsters, but it seems as folks advance in their awareness they move into this ephemeral zone (have fun with that one) and stop relating personal expereinces and points of growth, or "actual discoveries". Of course there are notable exceptions and this is a vast generalization.

You seem like a very centered, spiritual person with a lot to offer. I would love to hear about your personal discoveries with this exercise. What does it mean to you. That's it plain and simple. Or anyone elses for that matter.

I have done this exercise for years, just finished doing it actually. I get to the place where my second hand answers are gone and there is emptiness. But there is nothing else. I get a glimpse of awareness as my concepts drop away. I ask those questions and move into an emptiness that is breathless and deep, but that's it. Big deal. It doesn't necessarily increase my capacity to be in the now at other times throughout the day. It doesn't increase my capacity to accept others, drop judgements on a dime, and give them my undivided attention.

The only thing that seems to happen is an full-on sense of the depth and breadth of my ego. Holy crap! I mean you get a glimpse of the size of that thing and you don't want to go back into the water! But I do go back into the water and I go to the emptiness, the place beyond concepts and rest there. It is the moving into my "normal consciousness"--the thousand nuanced automatic reactions when my wife looks at me with a certain angle to her eyebrows and the ego kicks into high gear and the great intuitive insights evaperate like spit on a texas road.

Sorry for the rant, thanks for listening.
Be present, be pleasant.

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Re: Revelation

Post by HermitLoon » Fri Jul 04, 2008 2:28 pm

Thanks Onceler!
You might go to http://www.thework.com/index.asp and click on "partner"?
Peace

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Onceler
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Re: Revelation

Post by Onceler » Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:09 pm

Okay, I got it, thanks Hermit Loon! You actually confirmed my realization, very insightful! However, this whole thing is probably blantently obvious to everyone reading, Okay... Here is the progression of events since I posted this morning...

I walk away from my computer, it is a dark morning and looks like rain. I think that I hope it rains because it has been dry in this part of the country. We have been getting the occasional thunderstorm, and they are big and dramatic, flashy, and dump some rain, but farmers don't necessarily like them, despite the rain, because they can wash away topsoil and flashflood and the rain doesn't truly soak into the ground...just then it starts to rain a really gentle, persistant rain (these are the words I think my head). Good, it will fill the fish pond and water the garden. Then I think that this is really the better rain, because it really soaks into the soil and lasts longer, more sustaining....then it gradually "soaks" in...this is the way of my awakening. No thunderstorms for me, its gentle rain and that is just the way of it.

Then I realize I am not "frustrated with the forum" I am frustrated with myself and my percieved spiritual stall out. Then I realize that my inferred call for honesty to the forum is really a call for honesty for myself, my lack of realness and candor, my pretense that I am "spiritual" in my posts.

And then I go back to the computer to type all this and Hermit Loon is there way ahead of me and gently suggests I do the work, which is what I did with the rain.

Thanks everyone, +Jim+, Hermitloon, Dutchred, actually everyone. I just re-enacted why this forum is so special....

I guess I am making some "progress". That whole thing would have taken me months to get a year ago. Course it has taken me a whole life to get it...each realization is like you are starting over...

Gasho.
Be present, be pleasant.

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Sighclone
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Re: Revelation

Post by Sighclone » Sun Jul 06, 2008 6:23 am

To onceler's ego: I don't care about you. So anything you pick up on from what the REAL onceler reads below isn't about you.

To onceler: This is selfish...sorry if you are struggling with something this week. I must have read 100 of your posts in the last month and always look forward to a new one from you. This kind of spiritual evolution is not trivial and is not automatic. Every person who continues to contribute here helps me. But yours are very meaningful and clear and honest.
Plus, your professional counseling background is a big help. You can have a bad week, but you can't go away..... :)

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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+Jim+
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Re: Revelation

Post by +Jim+ » Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:41 am

Hi Onceler
What a delightfully honest post Image
I guess I am making some "progress". That whole thing would have taken me months to get a year ago. Course it has taken me a whole life to get it...each realization is like you are starting over...
And that's the key! Revelation comes through a window of emptiness, not down a path well laid with concepts.
All true discoveries are made afresh - when you accumulate absolutely nothing then you are always available to receive.

with love
Jim
Intellectual understanding is totally inadequate for meeting daily life.
It's like attempting to nourish yourself on the memory of yesterday's lunch!


http://simplyenlightening.wordpress.com/about/

HermitLoon
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Re: Revelation

Post by HermitLoon » Sun Jul 06, 2008 5:02 pm

:)
Peace

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