Isn't Discussion Generating More Thinking?

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Alia
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Isn't Discussion Generating More Thinking?

Post by Alia » Wed Aug 27, 2008 6:31 pm

Hello everyone:

This is my first post. I read this board occasionally but I always walk away feeling more confused, overloaded, etc., because it generates more thinking for me. Doesn't discussion just generate more thinking? I mean, once you get the answer to a question, there will always be another one and another one and another one. I think that is how our minds work, at least those of us who still think 99% of the time (uh, yea, me ) My intuition, or at least what I believe to be intution, tells me to just walk away, stop asking questions, stop trying to understand these concepts with my mind, because all of these activities are generating more thinking. I also feel strongly that I should just breathe - focus on the breathe - meditate, try to focus on my breath and the aliveness of my body - and that's it. Stop reading, stop trying to understand it, stop reading the discussions, etc. Thoughts? (and yet, here I am, posting, thinking, discussing....argh). Thanks much.

EDIT: Just wanted to ad that the reason I ask is because I find myself wanting to come here and read stuff all the time. It's that desire that has me questioning...not the quality of the answers or information! :)
Last edited by Alia on Wed Aug 27, 2008 8:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Isn't Discussion Generating More Thinking?

Post by Sighclone » Wed Aug 27, 2008 7:13 pm

Welcome Alia! Oops, you have discovered our secret! We are really about keeping everyone asleep with lots of words! Now that I'm exposed, I'll have to resign. Goodbye!

Just kidding, of course. First ,some facts: this is an Internet forum. We have decided to allow the use of the English language for our medium of communication. We could have set it up only for mp3 music or wmv videos or iambic pentameter poetry. I'm not being sarcastic - those might be superior media for communicating much of this material. But far more people understand English than can write music.

Second: You are absolutely right, thoughts are products of the ego/mind in general. Eckhart says somewhere that his words are just part of his message, however. He repeatedly says that words are just pointers, meaning that thought-concepts are just pointers.

That said, others have specific questions about their experiences...about their pre-verbal Unity Consciousness experiences, and many other things. Most of the posts seem to be people, like you, asking questions about what is happening to them...or not. Then there are the academic kind of questions, the phenomenological, ontological, teleological, philosophical ones. It is unlikely that answers to any of those kind of questions will transport an individual into a consciousness shift. So it is just people grinding away in this imperfect egoic medium of language, trying to point at the moon.

Your time spent alone in meditation, in Stillness, in the present moment, with whatever level of consciousness you have at a given time is the best teacher. Eckhart's fundamental message has to do with your identity. Ask "Who Am I?" until the answer is clear. If you never return here, your progress may increase.

But thanks for joining!

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Isn't Discussion Generating More Thinking?

Post by kiki » Wed Aug 27, 2008 8:29 pm

Welcome to the board, Alia. Andy hit the nail on the head with his response with his usual flair for creative expression. And you are correct, this board can generate lots of thinking with its endless discussion of things. Return to silence, to presence again and again - let that be your teacher. From that clarity of awareness understanding will follow, and if you ever feel a need for someone's insight or another pointing finger return to the board. A successful teacher (or board in this case) is one who eliminates the need for his presence (so I guess we haven't been too successful). Those of us who continue hanging around here pointing are hopelessly entangled in the illusion that we have a purpose here, but that's OK because it's all part of the show that's going on. There are many here who relish playing their part in the show, me included. :wink: And if you find you are confused and feel a need to ask another question know that you have retreated into the mind, so return to presence.

That being said, there will be many who won't quite get it that there is no need for discussion because they are under the illusion that there is something to "get" via words, ideas, and discussion despite the number of times that very point is made. In effect, they are creating the "need" for this board and perpetuating its existence with more questions. What an interesting play it is, don't you think? It's absurd, ironic, and paradoxical - in short, the ingredients of a very complex but entertaining play. So please, put me out of a "job", I've got a bathroom I need to renovate.
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Re: Isn't Discussion Generating More Thinking?

Post by James » Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:05 pm

Eventually the ego/mind becomes weary from discussion and thinking, and in doing so it loses its capacity to maintain the sense of separation or the illusion of what we are not. The mind will then become more still on its own, once futility is recognized. So in other words all paths lead to the same place, back to the Self, as if we could have been anywhere else. What is that they say? it is a "journey from here to here". We cannot find ourself, we can only Be ourself.

The best advice though is to follow your own instincts and intuition on how to live, and don't be concerned about making mistakes. What seems like a mistake is really consciousness evolving, neither good nor bad.

James
"Awareness is already present, already here, already now; before you try to be more.... In that recognition there's no effort, there's just acknowledgment"..."Awareness is not something you can understand, it's something you are."

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Re: Isn't Discussion Generating More Thinking?

Post by Sighclone » Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:31 pm

Kiki does not often make me laugh. That's not because he is not capable of it - he usually prefers a pithy phrase or artful paragraph. But this time he did. And that made me think (whoops!!)....

Laughter is part of joy. Joy is an expression of Being. Eckhart laughs often, usually at ironic or silly things. If a phrase or image, or an absurdity created by words evokes laughter, even in an enlightened person, it is part of lila, the play of Being in the manifested. Defending words and ideas for a moment, they can bring on laughter.

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

Alia
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Re: Isn't Discussion Generating More Thinking?

Post by Alia » Thu Aug 28, 2008 12:33 am

Thanks everyone for your thoughts (a bit of irony there, eh?) I am appreciative of your consideration for my question. Kiki, go renovate your bathroom, perhaps that will provide more of an opportunity for presence than being here thinking about my questions :wink:

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Re: Isn't Discussion Generating More Thinking?

Post by kiki » Thu Aug 28, 2008 1:09 am

Kiki, go renovate your bathroom, perhaps that will provide more of an opportunity for presence than being here thinking about my question
Thanks Alia - there's nothing like the smell of paint stripper to get you in the present moment.
"Miss Kelly, perhaps you'd like this flower. I seem to have misplaced my buttonhole ... Miss Kelly, you know, when you wear my flower you make it look beautiful." Elwood P. Dowd
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Re: Isn't Discussion Generating More Thinking?

Post by moonmissy » Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:09 am

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Before and after there exist not one
Why attachments?

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Re: Isn't Discussion Generating More Thinking?

Post by minaret » Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:09 pm

I loved this post, thank you Alia and all respondents. I drop by the forum from time to time for inspiration. Sometimes I go away just full of thought and empty of space... but then sometimes I go away empty of thought and full of space. :?
"I hope for nothing. I fear nothing. I am free". Kazantzakis

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Re: Isn't Discussion Generating More Thinking?

Post by andy » Thu Sep 04, 2008 9:57 pm

I agree. Personally, I believe Tolle did a disservice by writing too descriptively on the topic of enlightenment. Now I know how to be enlightened, but need to undo that knowing in order to be able to realise it. Everything he wrote is absolutely wrong, and he knows it!

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Re: Isn't Discussion Generating More Thinking?

Post by Sighclone » Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:31 pm

andy -

My, such a bold statement in a fan forum, and spoken with such conviction of knowing what Eckhart knew about his writing when he wrote it. I do not wish to be sarcastic, so please do not read that into my next question...it is heartfelt:

What else do you know about Eckhart's motivation? And where does your knowledge come from?

Thanks,

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Isn't Discussion Generating More Thinking?

Post by kiki » Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:30 pm

Everything he wrote is absolutely wrong, and he knows it!
Of course he knows it, and we know that he knows it because he has said this himself, and more and more people are discovering this directly. All words and descriptions are just that - all they do is point to that which cannot be put into words, but the words and descriptions themselves are always wrong; the "word" is not the thing. His "pointing", however, is done in such a way that growing numbers of people more easily discover for themselves the nonconceptual reality of what they are.
"Miss Kelly, perhaps you'd like this flower. I seem to have misplaced my buttonhole ... Miss Kelly, you know, when you wear my flower you make it look beautiful." Elwood P. Dowd
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Re: Isn't Discussion Generating More Thinking?

Post by andy » Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:06 am

These teachings have been around since the year dot, from the Qabalistic texts, to the poems of the Sufi Rumi, to the Advaita Vedanta, Buddhism, Hinduism, Gnostic scriptures, Tao Te Ching etc etc. There is nothing new in Tolle's books, except to be made more consumable and popularised for Western society. Sure, one can distill and synthesis essential truths from different sources (e.g. Madame Blavatsky), re-manifest them and sell them off as another brand of new-age religion and dogma.

And new age dogma it has become. Look around, even on this forum, everyone regards Tolle as some kind of super-human entity and take his teachings as literal. Western Society likes to objectify and conceptualise everything.

"A New Earth" -- please? These teachings have been around a long long time.
Eckhart Tolle presents readers with an honest look at the current state of humanity:

Tolle tells us there is good news, however. There is an alternative to this potentially dire situation. Humanity now, perhaps more than in any previous time, has an opportunity to create a new, saner, more loving world. This will involve a radical inner leap from the current egoic consciousness to an entirely new one.
Who is Tolle to present to me the current state of humanity? What is is, it is an expression of the divine -- it is perfect. Yet why judge it? Everything will unfold as it is meant to, without creating another religion out of it.

"Look within, thou art Buddha", and yet we still fail to look within and instead cling to these conceptualisations, like moths to a light.

Jesus said "Do not cast pearls before swine". How true he was to say this, and look how material and dogmatic his teachings have turned out to be.

I guess can't blame the man for wanting to make a quick buck.

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Re: Isn't Discussion Generating More Thinking?

Post by Onceler » Fri Sep 05, 2008 11:31 am

andy wrote:I guess can't blame the man for wanting to make a quick buck.
Yes, blaming seems the antithesis of your argument.
Be present, be pleasant.

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Re: Isn't Discussion Generating More Thinking?

Post by andy » Fri Sep 05, 2008 12:11 pm

Thanks.

Although the usage of that phrase was idiomatic, there is no blame here or there. Everything, including this, including that, is still an expression of the divine -- in whatever form this or that takes. Who am I or anyone else to question this? Accepting what is not -- and by believing that everyone else should become enlightened to lead "A New Earth", is distracting to me and my progress. This too must also be my practice. Drop all the books, and search within, and here is the true guru. Whether I become realised today, the next day or never - it doesn't really matter. It is still an expression of the divine. And back to the topic, yes - these conceptualisations do generate more thinking and are more hurdles in the process.

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