Isn't Discussion Generating More Thinking?

Talk about anything Tolle-related here.
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Re: Isn't Discussion Generating More Thinking?

Post by Webwanderer » Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:10 pm

andy wrote:Who is Tolle to present to me the current state of humanity? What is is, it is an expression of the divine -- it is perfect. Yet why judge it? Everything will unfold as it is meant to, without creating another religion out of it.
According to your model everything is perfect - that would have to include Tolle's modern expression of Essential truth.

And why judge it indeed? Rather see Tolle's offerings as written for an evolving consciousness - just the latest expression of the DIvine to assist its millions of human expressions in finding their way home. Human consciousness has many diverse perspectives on the nature of life. In the perfection of a system designed to offer insight in returning to awareness of our True Nature, Tolle's version is just one among many. Why should we judge one path over another simply because it's similar to long existing directives.

Tolle's works have proven value. What any given human, who has benefitted by his teachings, has paid in monetary value for access to his insights, pales in comparison to experiential value received in return. Am I a Tolle groupie? Hardly. But I owe him a debt of gratitude for pointing me to a Truth that I'd been missing (in spite of 30 years of searching), and that has brought more clarity and meaning to my life than I ever knew before.

Arguments discounting the value of Tolle's teachings are like arguments discounting the beauty of a sunrise simply because there was one yesturday.

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Re: Isn't Discussion Generating More Thinking?

Post by kiki » Fri Sep 05, 2008 3:56 pm

Arguments discounting the value of Tolle's teachings are like arguments discounting the beauty of a sunrise simply because there was one yesturday.
Wonderfully stated! Almost poetic.
"Miss Kelly, perhaps you'd like this flower. I seem to have misplaced my buttonhole ... Miss Kelly, you know, when you wear my flower you make it look beautiful." Elwood P. Dowd
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Re: Isn't Discussion Generating More Thinking?

Post by andy » Fri Sep 05, 2008 5:09 pm

According to your model everything is perfect - that would have to include Tolle's modern expression of Essential truth.

Everything is perfect because it is an expression of the divine. This idea is Tolle's, not mine.

My post preceding this one stated:
Everything, including this, including that, is still an expression of the divine -- in whatever form this or that takes. Who am I or anyone else to question this? Accepting what is not -- and by believing that everyone else should become enlightened to lead "A New Earth", is distracting to me and my progress.
It seems, to me, that one who emphasises the "Power of Now", is leading us to "A New Earth". The book postulates that "There is an alternative to this potentially dire situation. This will involve a radical inner leap from the current egoic consciousness to an entirely new one." Tolle has previously stated that the moment is all there is, and everything here and now is perfect. How can these two points exist? How can someone who loves the moment for all that it is, write a book saying what should be and in doing so know it will be conceptualised. It is extremely confusing.
Why judge it indeed? In the perfection of a system designed to offer insight in returning to awareness of our True Nature, Tolle's version is just one among many. Why should we judge one path over another simply because it's similar to long existing directives.
I judge it and discriminate because the system is not perfect - for me, it is confusing and contradictory. There is no insights in the book, and there is nothing that could help in returning to awareness. Instead, it is concepts stacked on top of concepts offered to confuse.
What any given human, who has benefitted by his teachings, has paid in monetary value for access to his insights, pales in comparison to experiential value received in return.
Although he has offered teachings and insights, I don't feel they are any value or relevance to me. I have come to realise they are just lies stacked upon lies. Relative truths stacked upon relative truths, where the first layer would have done just fine.
Arguments discounting the value of Tolle's teachings are like arguments discounting the beauty of a sunrise simply because there was one yesturday.
And arguments crediting the value of Tolle's teachings are like observing the beauty of that sunrise through his description, rather than seeing that the beauty comes from within.

At some point it is necessary to disregard relative truths for the absolute. My point was, Tolle's relative truths are excessively descriptive while a basic description would have been quite sufficient. The more conceptualised my description of "awakening" becomes, the more the mind desires it, and substitutes what it thinks it is and pretends to know that it has achieved it. This is the danger in become too descriptive, and least in my experience.

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Re: Isn't Discussion Generating More Thinking?

Post by kiki » Fri Sep 05, 2008 6:54 pm

And arguments crediting the value of Tolle's teachings are like observing the beauty of that sunrise through his description, rather than seeing that the beauty comes from within.
There are many who are seeing it directly for themselves, and find his description quite accurate to the degree that it can be put into words and can appreciate how his words/descriptions have served them and others in their journey of awakening.
My point was, Tolle's relative truths are excessively descriptive while a basic description would have been quite sufficient.
Which is why I especially like Stillness Speaks, a very distilled teaching. But how many are ready for that? How much "basic description" is enough? Depends on the person. Who is to say what is the perfect amount because each listener/reader/student is somewhere different in their conditioning. For some people Ramana's silence was enough because that was as simple as it gets and they were ready for that; many others, however, seemed to need more and so he catered to where they were at. So each of us should find a teaching that resonates most clearly where we are at, but at the end of the day all teaching must drop away in order for clarity to be realized most deeply.

So if Tolle doesn't work for you I'm sure he won't mind if you find something else that does. The paradox is that no words or descriptions are ever needed but you don't know that until you are awake. And when you tell that to people they practically demand to hear more. Is it any wonder that more books get published, more satsangs given, and more discussion boards kept active? Oh, the irony! And do those books, satsangs, and discussion boards arise out of a need to keep students/people confused and dependent upon the teacher/board or out of compassion for the seekers because of the confusion they find themselves in?
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Re: Isn't Discussion Generating More Thinking?

Post by Sighclone » Fri Sep 05, 2008 8:22 pm

andy -

Welcome again. And thanks to my friends for their comments. andy, it is particularly people like you who are discriminating, honest, educated, articulate and upset that are meaningful for us here. Admittedly, those of us who are moderators like Eckhart. He made a personal difference for all of us. His impact on me was huge. Because of that, and that alone, I will defend him, without judging the level of ego in my comments. Several things that he got "right", as opposed to "wrong" for me are: (1) his modest tone and personality, (2) the importance of the present moment (3) his emphasis on acceptance, forgiveness and surrender (and the problem with opposition), (4) the concept of the painbody, (5) some slightly new styles of meditating and staying present, (6) some timeless one-liners, (7) the significance of silence and stillness, (8) the significance of joy and enthusiasm, (9) the section in PON on the relationship between the Manifested and the Unmanifested, and (10) his willingness, as a very shy person, to appear in front of millions of people.

You mention that you now know how to become enlightened (
Now I know how to be enlightened, but need to undo that knowing in order to be able to realise it.
). What do you know about how to be enlightened?

Thanks,

Namaste, Andy the other
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Isn't Discussion Generating More Thinking?

Post by the key master » Fri Sep 05, 2008 8:29 pm

Kiki said,
Which is why I especially like Stillness Speaks, a very distilled teaching. But how many are ready for that?
I investigated the nature of Reality for many years. Unfortunately, I looked without when I needed to look within. A New Earth was my first book on the topic of awakening. Tolle's clarity of Being resonated deeply with me. On several occassions during my first reading I experienced pure bliss simply through reading with utmost attention. The purity of Tolle's radiant light shined a sense of clarity of Being so deep within me that the impossible became possible. I doubt Stillness Speaks could have had the same effect. The conceptual can still point to the Real, and for some, point more effectively.

Best,
Jason

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Re: Isn't Discussion Generating More Thinking?

Post by andy » Wed Sep 10, 2008 1:35 am

Thanks for you comments. I agree with all that has been written above.

Sighclone wrote: You mention that you now know how to become enlightened (
Now I know how to be enlightened, but need to undo that knowing in order to be able to realise it.
). What do you know about how to be enlightened?
This comment was a stab at sarcasm! I "know" how to be enlightened because Tolle gives a vivid description what it is like to be so. :) Now my mind can emulate that state or strive towards it. The more I know about being enlightened, the less I actually am enlightened -- its quite ironic isn't it?

Sometimes I do wonder - enlightenment is a strange term. I like the term - "getting to know who I really aam". Goes down more of a treat than some grand notion.

I shall look up this book stillness speaks. It is probably something quite like the Tao Te Ching or the Gita.

I like this passage from the Tao Te Ching, and summarises the whole desire for enlightenment thing:

Always without desire we must be found,
If its deep mystery we would sound;
But if desire always within us be,
Its outer fringe is all that we shall see.

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Re: Isn't Discussion Generating More Thinking?

Post by wolfe » Wed Sep 17, 2008 12:46 am

First it's a mountain, then it's not a mountain, then it's a mountain again.

Words are based on concepts and using them takes you into duality, or mis-identification with the mind.
But they're not "off limits."
The key is what you're identifying with, your concepts or your awareness? Tolle's work, and these discussions, are using words or concepts to point to the apparent truth that most of us are mis-identified with the mind. What else can he/we use? But since he is (apparently) fully identified with Awareness he is unaffected by his use of words. Or so it seems to me. For the unenlightened, when we use words or concepts it strengthens the mis-identification.
Until we learn to identify with awareness it will continue to be a barrier. And a seeming paradox.

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Re: Isn't Discussion Generating More Thinking?

Post by hello » Wed Sep 17, 2008 6:08 am

Hi Alia,

Though I have not read all the posts in this thread you are definitely not alone when you say "I read this board occasionally but I always walk away feeling more confused, overloaded, etc." In fact I feel you belong to the majority.

However, please do not feel discouraged. Honestly, I have felt that ET is more understandable and readable than many posts here and that is why I make very infrequent presence in this forum.

If you find this board confusing please log off and go through a book like Stillness Speaks when your mind is more receptive to what is written. Even I am not able to agree with ET on some of the points that he makes and so have many other readers, but believe me, many things written in Power of Now,, Stillness Speaks etc. have an enormous power to help you improve the general quality of life. You need not necessarily aim at all the seemingly lofty things that some people have expressed here, but you could use these tools to simply live more happily, right?

Yes, someone here has expressed some thing to the effect that ET is very prosaic...even I had felt so ON THE FIRST READ, because many of the principles that ET has put in, you can see other authors/teachers writing in a more structured and concise way.

However, I went through some very difficult period in life, and believe me, AFTER these events took place, when I went through ET again all that he had written made the most sense to me and I was thirsting for him to have written even more!

Don't bother if you are confused, take a break from forums if you feel that they do not help you on the face of it, but do realize that these principles can greatly help you to live better and continue your practice. Take the good things that appeal to you first and leave the rest and don't forget to ignore messages which are full of jargons and that confuse you, but practice and just focus on some wonderful posts here by some guys which could appeal to you. All the best and take care!
Shine the light of wisdom in my life of darkness, Lord.

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Re: Isn't Discussion Generating More Thinking?

Post by stephen F » Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:51 am

Eckhart talks about the mind looking for a more differentiated sign posts, something like that, and this is true. We do tend to want to figure out what it all means. I only have Eckhart's spoken words on my PDA and there would be times when I would listen over and over trying to get it and sometime yes things of importance would occur to me but at some point it is a foolish pursuit. Perhaps Mr. Tolle is guilty of running on and on when a little stillness would be better. There is such a demand for his stuff now that some people are using the ideas he has described and are turning it into a twelve step program towards enlightenment, something Eckhart repeatedly says is not possible. If it has not happened yet i would guess someone somewhere is writing a book "Understanding the Now."
When we look at the night sky the eyes sensitivity to light is not uniform actually there is more sensitivity in our peripheral vision that in the center. So someone trying to see a faint star has better luck not looking directly where it is supposed to be but a little to one side or another. This seems to be how it works in looking for the stillness the more we look the less likely we are to see because looking involves mind and a sense of future, something outside of ourselves.
More often that not, for me any sense of the now, of expansion, seems to be kind of a random thing. It finds me. A good sense of what Eckhart is about for me comes from listening the Findhorn talk, the very natural easy flowing of the words and the great joy that comes out of him and ocasional bits of what i would call poetry being born as he speaks. wow! Sensing that unnameable quality in him kind of brings it out in me also.

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Re: Isn't Discussion Generating More Thinking?

Post by heidi » Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:54 pm

It finds me.
Me, too. :)
Welcome Stephen F; your first 2 posts made me smile. :)

Listening to that Findhorn retreat had the same effect on me - like a bliss sidewinder slithered gently in from the periphery and just filled me up with emptiness. :) How's that for a paradox? :lol:

Glad you've joined us.
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Re: Isn't Discussion Generating More Thinking?

Post by nodoubt » Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:47 am

Hello Alia
First time here also.
Your concern was was mine also before deciding to join forum.
My approach will be no self seeking in discussions,along with giving people space to be expressive.
As Ekhart says words are followed by role play. Perhaps I can keep a beginners attitude no matter how much I think I know.
Great to be here.

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Re: Isn't Discussion Generating More Thinking?

Post by HowToKnowGod » Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:36 am

This thread reminds me of how when I go to a Tolle satsung group, half of the people just suddenly turn on the rat race thinking as soon as it's over. It's so weird. They spend 2 hours in silence and listening to Tolle, then once it's over, it's as if it never even happened. Boom! Talking about what they think it was all about. Talking about what's next, who's coming to town, how they liked or disliked today's sitting, etc. Not that I'm not free of this, but it's just funny to see.

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Re: Isn't Discussion Generating More Thinking?

Post by heidi » Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:53 pm

They spend 2 hours in silence and listening to Tolle, then once it's over...
Ha ha, that reminds me of the time I had just finished a session of yoga, looked down at the street to see the meter man leaning against my car chatting with someone. Totally relaxed and at one with the universe, I got ready to leave, and by the time I got downstairs the guy had just put a ticket on my windshield - He had stood there waiting for the meter to run out to put the ticket on! When I got to the car - this after complete relaxation - I basically told the guy he was going to burn in hell. I was livid, and laughed at myself at the kookiness of the whole dynamic. Ohmmmmmmm - HOW DARE HE? :lol:

Hmm, also I think this topic just got married to this one:
http://eckhart-tolle-forum.inner-growth ... &sk=t&sd=a
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Re: Isn't Discussion Generating More Thinking?

Post by weichen » Sat Oct 25, 2008 12:54 am

I basically told the guy he was going to burn in hell. I was livid, and laughed at myself at the kookiness of the whole dynamic.
Tolle said that one can not predict what will come out of presence, he does not even rule out physical violence. So verbal violence certainly does not necessarily mean one has lost presence.

During the verbal violence, heidi probably lost her attachment to 'being nice', lost her fear to 'upseting another person'. Maybe that is why she laughs. Action arising out of presence often allows us to confront our strongest old mind conditioning.

If the similar situation happen again tomorrow, heidi might respond with stillness, because she has already lost the attachment and the fear.

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