Isn't Discussion Generating More Thinking?

Talk about anything Tolle-related here.
nodoubt
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Re: Isn't Discussion Generating More Thinking?

Post by nodoubt » Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:16 am

weichen wrote:
I basically told the guy he was going to burn in hell. I was livid, and laughed at myself at the kookiness of the whole dynamic.





I lost consciousness at the bank recently. Not to the extent as in the past, but definitely a tirade. The teller made a 5000 dollar error-he confirmed my worst fears-
the bank was out to cheat me. I laugh at it now.

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pardes
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Re: Isn't Discussion Generating More Thinking?

Post by pardes » Sun Dec 14, 2008 2:03 am

stephen F wrote:A good sense of what Eckhart is about for me comes from listening the Findhorn talk, the very natural easy flowing of the words and the great joy that comes out of him and ocasional bits of what i would call poetry being born as he speaks. wow! Sensing that unnameable quality in him kind of brings it out in me also.
I'm glad you liked this video since I just ordered it. I have to confess that I haven't read any of Tolle's books yet. I found him through the web lecture series with Oprah Winfrey and the three interviews posted on the Unity site. Oddly I don't have the burning desire to read everything he's written since I sense that what he is all about was transmitted in the talks I have seen. This doesn't mean I won't read his books since I love to read books, but it just tickles me to death that I'm not interested in following the personality of Eckhart when I'd rather just be with the wealth of experiences I've already discovered through listening to his casual talks. The rest, including reading or not reading his books, will follow naturally.

It's very nice to be here with people who seem to enjoy the irony of humor (particularly in this thread!).

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Re: Isn't Discussion Generating More Thinking?

Post by Webwanderer » Sun Dec 14, 2008 3:35 pm

Welcome pardes.
pardes wrote:
Oddly I don't have the burning desire to read everything he's written since I sense that what he is all about was transmitted in the talks I have seen. This doesn't mean I won't read his books since I love to read books, but it just tickles me to death that I'm not interested in following the personality of Eckhart when I'd rather just be with the wealth of experiences I've already discovered through listening to his casual talks.
I'm sure Eckhart would approve. Reading his writings is not about personality, rather he offers an extraordinary source of effective pointers to clear awareness. I'm particularly fond of Power of Now, and the audio version of Silence Speaks.

Enjoy the forum.

WW

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Re: Isn't Discussion Generating More Thinking?

Post by garuda » Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:09 am

Alia wrote: Doesn't discussion just generate more thinking? I mean, once you get the answer to a question, there will always be another one and another one and another one. I think that is how our minds work, at least those of us who still think 99% of the time (uh, yea, me ).......... stop trying to understand these concepts with my mind, because all of these activities are generating more thinking........... I find myself wanting to come here and read stuff all the time. It's that desire that has me questioning...not the quality of the answers or information! :)
I think that even having tasted or glimpsed the ultimate truth of the awareness of pure awareness, the "living it" moment-to-moment can be challenging if not arduous because of all the temptations and distractions of the relative world. So we all occasionally become sloppy and forget that “taste” momentarily, or for minutes, or hours, or days — then we revisit the familiar forum board of “ego chatter”. But amidst all the chatter, we are reminded of what we Know, but have temporarily forgotten. And having been reminded, we again attempt to sustain our present moment awareness of awareness. So the forum is good regardless.

And for those who have not yet “tasted”, then maybe they will become intrigued and inspired by the forum in order to push on to the so-called goal of no-seeking-stillness until blessed with the "taste". So the forum is good regardless.
Recognize present awareness......... rest in that awareness..........don’t become distracted.

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Onceler
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Re: Isn't Discussion Generating More Thinking?

Post by Onceler » Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:40 am

Nice to see you prowling around here again, Garuda. We missed your input.
Be present, be pleasant.

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Re: Isn't Discussion Generating More Thinking?

Post by garuda » Wed Jan 28, 2009 5:04 am

Hello again, Onceler, and thank you for your kind words. I too enjoy reading all the comments of all of you wisdom beings. :D
It’s good to have seasoned contributors, like yourself, to stimulate and clarity the questions of others with your answers.
Recognize present awareness......... rest in that awareness..........don’t become distracted.

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Re: Isn't Discussion Generating More Thinking?

Post by Suzanne » Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:11 am

Onceler!!!!

Nice to be back :)

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Re: Isn't Discussion Generating More Thinking?

Post by Onceler » Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:20 am

It's about time you came around again, Suzanne!

I hope things are well.
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Re: Isn't Discussion Generating More Thinking?

Post by sevenworlds » Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:50 pm

andy wrote:It seems, to me, that one who emphasises the "Power of Now", is leading us to "A New Earth". The book postulates that "There is an alternative to this potentially dire situation. This will involve a radical inner leap from the current egoic consciousness to an entirely new one." Tolle has previously stated that the moment is all there is, and everything here and now is perfect. How can these two points exist? How can someone who loves the moment for all that it is, write a book saying what should be and in doing so know it will be conceptualised. It is extremely confusing.
Maybe it's too simplistic, but you could almost say the blame lies with the first person who ever tried to write about this or share it in some way. Whether that was Buddha or someone else doesn't really matter. It could also be said that those who first shared this knowledge were those who glimpsed it but didn't swallow it fully because it seems the eagerness to talk about and conceptualise this is absent in those who have went the whole way. We have been chasing our tails ever since.
andy wrote:At some point it is necessary to disregard relative truths for the absolute. My point was, Tolle's relative truths are excessively descriptive while a basic description would have been quite sufficient. The more conceptualised my description of "awakening" becomes, the more the mind desires it, and substitutes what it thinks it is and pretends to know that it has achieved it. This is the danger in become too descriptive, and least in my experience.
This is my problem with Tolle. His teachings seem very one-sided and they offer a lot of encouragement for the mind to latch on to. He may well be giving many people a glimpse of this but a glimpse is still a thought-based experience. He often talks about artists and sportsmen being in that state while they perform, which seems very misleading to me. They may well be going into some sort of focussed zone during their activities but it is NOT that state because one true glimpse of that state - even for a split-second - will shatter everything and bring you to an end.

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Re: Isn't Discussion Generating More Thinking?

Post by Onceler » Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:37 pm

sevenworlds wrote:This is my problem with Tolle. His teachings seem very one-sided and they offer a lot of encouragement for the mind to latch on to. He may well be giving many people a glimpse of this but a glimpse is still a thought-based experience. He often talks about artists and sportsmen being in that state while they perform, which seems very misleading to me. They may well be going into some sort of focussed zone during their activities but it is NOT that state because one true glimpse of that state - even for a split-second - will shatter everything and bring you to an end.
Adya talks about this in his free download "spiritual addictions", which I highly recommend. His old zen teacher would pound his staff and say, "this is zen, this is the Buddha" and not use any excessive language or abstractions to elaborate on the truth in the moment. He talks about the tightrope a teacher walks between talking about concepts too little and too much. Too little and the student spends years in meditation with little guidance beyond a few concrete, yet egnimatic pointers; too much and students intellectualize and look for a spiritual experience rather than the authentic state in each moment.

It's all hit pop culture now and it seems there have been some suprising results along with some predictable results. I see it as an evolution; cycles of spareness after bloating. Who knows, the two styles may work for different people. Everyone finds their own way. If nothing else, Tolle awoke old, dormant passions and tugged on disparate threads from my past; Zen and a potporri of new age jumbles, and reengaged me with the moment. His words were the spark.

What may happen is that as collective conciousness reaches a critical mass it may be easier to glimpse the natural state while in the "zone". The intelligence of being may begin to leak (or burst) into ordinary moments. You or I can't predict that.....
Be present, be pleasant.

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Re: Isn't Discussion Generating More Thinking?

Post by James » Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:38 pm

Well said Onceler.

Sevenworlds wrote:
They may well be going into some sort of focussed zone during their activities but it is NOT that state because one true glimpse of that state - even for a split-second - will shatter everything and bring you to an end.
Is this how it has been for you? To me that sounds like all or nothing thinking, It has that dry Advaitic quality to it. identifying solely in the absolute realm, yet there is an undeniable appearance of a relative realm, called the human experience. I think a good teacher is able to balance both of those realms, that is what Tolle and others do in my view. It is easy to make such proclamations as "I no longer exist", "it is all an illusion", "there is no one here doing it", such statements are nothing new, they have been around for centuries. And are often hurled around spiritual discussion forums such as this, worn as a badge of honor. But that can also be an excuse or rationalization for unaccountable behavior and arrogance. Someone can say, "since there is no ego, then there is no one here acting arrogant", or "I am not doing anything, it is just happening through me".

The fixation on the absolute can be very alluring and blissful, but there still can be self deception within that, since the fact is, one is still living and operating in this relative state of existence. When someone comes off the mountaintop experience to interact in the relative world, they will find out just how enlightened, or not they are. Life will present challenges, difficulties or temptations, that will question this new identification in the absolute realm. Life leaves no stone unturned. Neither identify with the relative nor the absolute, but these are not discarded either.

james

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Onceler
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Re: Isn't Discussion Generating More Thinking?

Post by Onceler » Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:59 pm

Even better said, James!
Be present, be pleasant.

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Re: Isn't Discussion Generating More Thinking?

Post by sevenworlds » Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:27 am

James wrote:Sevenworlds wrote:
They may well be going into some sort of focussed zone during their activities but it is NOT that state because one true glimpse of that state - even for a split-second - will shatter everything and bring you to an end.
Is this how it has been for you?
Yes.

It has taken time for the body to recalibrate itself, blocks to be cleared, past memories to be shed, and so on but that split-second moment is like being hit by lightning. There was no practice involved leading up to it and everything changed after it.

I don't see how it can happen the way Tolle says. You can't carry on living the way you did and have This at the same time. It lies outside of time so you're fooling yourself to believe it can happen with gradual practice. I mean, did it happen like that for Tolle? So why is he throwing all these concepts about it at us?
James wrote:To me that sounds like all or nothing thinking, It has that dry Advaitic quality to it. identifying solely in the absolute realm, yet there is an undeniable appearance of a relative realm, called the human experience. I think a good teacher is able to balance both of those realms, that is what Tolle and others do in my view. It is easy to make such proclamations as "I no longer exist", "it is all an illusion", "there is no one here doing it", such statements are nothing new, they have been around for centuries. And are often hurled around spiritual discussion forums such as this, worn as a badge of honor. But that can also be an excuse or rationalization for unaccountable behavior and arrogance. Someone can say, "since there is no ego, then there is no one here acting arrogant", or "I am not doing anything, it is just happening through me".
Of course you're right but remember, Tolle's persona of a spiritual figure is also centuries old and cliched. Always calm, gentle, polite, never gets angry. So how do you know that behaviour is also not worn as a badge of honour by him and those on spiritual forums? His proclamations are as old as time. Consciousness, presence, ego, peace, love, looking at flowers, all the things he speaks of and the language he uses is cliched.
James wrote:The fixation on the absolute can be very alluring and blissful, but there still can be self deception within that, since the fact is, one is still living and operating in this relative state of existence. When someone comes off the mountaintop experience to interact in the relative world, they will find out just how enlightened, or not they are. Life will present challenges, difficulties or temptations, that will question this new identification in the absolute realm. Life leaves no stone unturned. Neither identify with the relative nor the absolute, but these are not discarded either.
I'm not here to get fixed on the absolute. I'm just pointing out some traps I see in Tolle's teachings. When he says things like we all access that state when we look at anything in nature, he's fooling people. These things are no different to any other pleasurable experience - like eating chocolate cake. They are just experiences. Anything that comes and goes cannot be that state. So if it were a real experience it should stop there. Why is it more beautiful to look at a sunset? It encourages that romantic, poetic side of us that the mind kids on is leading to enlightenment. There is beauty in the cracks in the pavement or hearing a truck go by.

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Re: Isn't Discussion Generating More Thinking?

Post by James » Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:47 am

OK sevenworlds, I hear what you are saying, but don't agree with your assessment of Tolle, and that's fine. It is hard to discount the tens of thousands of people that have benefitted from Tolle's message, perhaps your expectations were very high as to what the message could do for you. I am not sure why you feel the need to poke holes in it, after all isn't reality all One? The message and the messenger comes from the same source. To poke holes in it implies a sense of duality in my view.

james
"Awareness is already present, already here, already now; before you try to be more.... In that recognition there's no effort, there's just acknowledgment"..."Awareness is not something you can understand, it's something you are."

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Re: Isn't Discussion Generating More Thinking?

Post by Onceler » Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:05 am

I actually think you are discussing a different state than Tolle is describing, 7worlds and understand I am way out of my league. You seem to talking about a very powerful experience that upends your consciousness--more a mystical experience. What Tolle, Adya and others describe seem to be, not an altered state, but a hyper-real state, unaltered by anything and very ordinary. This state has been described through the zen tradition as well. It is notable for its subtle clarity not a blow-your-socks-off experience. It is also enduring for those awakened and fleetingly experienced for those not aware, but always at hand. It is accepting reality as it absolutely is, both internal and external--thoughts, emotions, the dog pissing on your tire.

The more I am aware of this state and brush against it, the more thankful I am that I haven't had a powerful spiritual experience--I used to suck lemons on that. I think there is a rich spectrum of experiences and approaches to being. Yours no more important or less so than Tolles, mine, or anyones.
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