Tolle video

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eputkonen
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Re: Tolle video

Post by eputkonen » Wed Oct 15, 2008 3:01 pm

Intel,

If you saw a mirage in the desert and you realized it was a mirage, would you still be fooled into thinking there is water there?
Namaste,

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Re: Tolle video

Post by Intel » Wed Oct 15, 2008 5:17 pm

I don't know where your going with this. We were speaking about enlightened people still experiencing emotions. But in answer to your question, if I saw a mirage and there was water, if I knew it was a mirage I wouldn't be fooled. But just because i'm mentally aware it is just a mirage, it doesn't mean the water won't appear.

You may call this world a dream, but you still need to eat and drink or you won't survive.
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Re: Tolle video

Post by PerryB » Wed Oct 15, 2008 5:31 pm

I appreciate your coments Intel and as for "enlightenment", there seems to be many thoughts about what that is. When we apply the teachings of non-resistance and living in the NOW, it does change the way we conduct ourselves. The Bible refers to it as "putting on the new personality". Many people change naturally with age as they mature and become calmer and realize the futility of having strong negative feelings. I'm sure you are not the same person you were five years ago. Understanding and applying these principles to your daily life will create these changes. It does not mean we become less of a person infact the opposite it is true.
We Grow on the Border of Support & Challenge! - John Demartini

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Re: Tolle video

Post by eputkonen » Wed Oct 15, 2008 6:25 pm

Intel wrote:I don't know where your going with this. We were speaking about enlightened people still experiencing emotions. But in answer to your question, if I saw a mirage and there was water, if I knew it was a mirage I wouldn't be fooled. But just because i'm mentally aware it is just a mirage, it doesn't mean the water won't appear.
If you were in a desert and saw water, but recogized it was a mirage...then you would not feel anxious to get to the water nor would you feel anger, disappointment, despair, or whatever when you reached the location and found no water. By realizing the mirage is an illusion, it no longer fools you and so actions/reactions are different (the emotional reaction in particular is different).

In realizing the living oneness (as you called it), yes the mirages continue to appear - there are life situations and "other" people - but the mirage no longer fools you. The emotional reactions are not the same because of deeper understanding (seeing a mirage as a mirage and not actually water).

I am not saying enlightened people are emotionless...they are typically full of joy. But someone who is routinely misable, angry, fearful, etc...I would suspect has not realized the living oneness...but perhaps only had a passing spiritual experience that did not affect their deeper understanding/realization/knowing (it was more in the head than the heart...so to speak). Such a person is still fooled by the mirage and thinks there actually is water.
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Re: Tolle video

Post by Intel » Wed Oct 15, 2008 11:29 pm

Perry, I agree with you. If we apply the teachings of non-resistance in the now, then certainly we will be much calmer people and not be swayed so much by our emotions or events. My point is not every enlightened person practises non-resistance. Some enlightened people do, some enlightened people don't. Some unenlightened people do, some unenlightened people don't.

I know you might reply that naturally this occurs as they're enlightened and know better, but I don't think so. You don't gain the wisdom of the universe once enlightened. Perhaps one in a million enlightened people do, but the rest will have to get on with life as normal.

I think many people have enlightenment confused with a way of life. When I say enlightenment, I'm referring to the realisation of oneness. Thats all. It has nothing to do with lifestyle, staying present, not resisting, being a vegetarian, communing with nature. All of these things are fine, and i'm sure you would live a happier life if you did all of this. However these things are a way of life, but are not related to enlightenment.

Therefore if a drunk realises the oneness of the universe, it doesn't neccassarily mean he'll sober up and live in the now. He may, or he may not. Either way it won't change the realisation he feels deep within his heart.
I would lick your feet, but is that the sickest move?

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Re: Tolle video

Post by Intel » Wed Oct 15, 2008 11:33 pm

eputkonen wrote:The emotional reactions are not the same because of deeper understanding (seeing a mirage as a mirage and not actually water).
So are you saying that if you hit an enlightened person over the head with a hammer they wouldn't get angry, or if a loved one died they deeply cared about, they wouldn't feel sad? I think you are referring to super beings. I'm talking about enlightened people.
I would lick your feet, but is that the sickest move?

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Re: Tolle video

Post by Webwanderer » Thu Oct 16, 2008 1:03 am

It seems we are back to the question raised in another thread: "What is the definition of enlightenment?

Is there but one definition that fits all discussions? Do we each choose a definition that fits our own limited world view and works best in the perspective that one holds? Is one definition wrong and another right? Are we kidding ourselves to stroke our egos wounded by self judgment? If such questions strike a nerve, what does that tell us?

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Re: Tolle video

Post by Intel » Thu Oct 16, 2008 1:22 am

Wise worlds old friend. I guess enlightenment can never truly be explained in words as reality can't be fully explained in words. But these are some of the tools we have to work with.

I suppose it is only possible to have a definition of enlightenment as something which best fits our perspective on life. On my part, I thought this whole thing was about realizing we are one. Then I heard of the expansion pack; eternal bliss, never getting angry, remaining present, deep seated wisdom etc.

But never mind WW, were not having an ego fight. Its just a few humans communicating with one another. So lets leave the 'E' word out of this thread :).
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Re: Tolle video

Post by eputkonen » Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:15 pm

Intel wrote:So are you saying that if you hit an enlightened person over the head with a hammer they wouldn't get angry, or if a loved one died they deeply cared about, they wouldn't feel sad? I think you are referring to super beings. I'm talking about enlightened people.
Not referring to super beings, but you are doing your best to justify and hold onto anger...that might be an issue for you. :wink:

I spoke of routinely or repeately...now you bring up rare circumstances or situations that may never happen.

There are more variables in the situation of being hit on the head with a hammer...so there is no way to say how an enlightened person would act. If it is an attacker that will not stop after the first hit, the enlightened may show anger just to make the other stop...but the enlightened in this scenario would not really be angry - would see through the illusion. It would be a like a lightning flash...shows for a short time and then completely gone (no residue). So I am not saying you would never see anger from any enlightened person...but they are rare occurances. Even in the Bible, Jesus got angry once...for a purpose. But don't take this exception due to rare circumstances to justify anger whenever you feel like it.

As for the scenario with loved ones...who died - did they cease to exist? Why feel sad - and for whom are you feeling sad? Sometimes you have to go through the experience once for all the attachments to form and such to drop off...I have heard of enlightened people who had their own children or parents die and everyone is shocked to find they were unaffected by it, but occassionally (heard of a couple) they were unaffected until the burial and then a wave of sadness passes - it doesn't last long and then it is gone...never to return. No other's death affects them by further accounts. Sometimes a little attachment to form stays hidden...and the mind gets one more reaction due to something that remained unaware (hidden and deep in the mind) until the circumstance presented itself. But by many accounts for many enlightened people...their followers, friends, and public can't understand why they are unmoved by the passing of loved ones. This is not purely through books that I understand this scenario, but also direct experience. My favorite grandparent (my grandmother) died a couple years ago...my family was devastated. Luckily I live far away, as they would not understand why I not only did not feel sad - but was filled with joy (I couldn't stop smiling). She was happy and I knew it (without knowing how I knew)...and I was happy she was happy. This is when I realized the "death" of someone closer would not make me sad. Death does not exist for what was never born.
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Re: Tolle video

Post by Intel » Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:34 pm

eputkonen wrote: Not referring to super beings, but you are doing your best to justify and hold onto anger...that might be an issue for you. :wink:
You are doing your best to deny anger, that may be an issue for you :wink: .

I never said I knew how an enlightened person would react in a certain situation, I was giving an example. An enlightened person may not be truly angry, but then again they might become furious with you. And there doesn't have to be a deep purpose behind all of their actions, they're not holy beings. They might just be pissed off because you hurt them. Even if its not truly their body, they truly feel the pain inflicted upon them.

Like Jesus, some enlightened people may forgive or allow circumstances to happen for a higher purpose. But not every enlightened person is like Jesus, and some may become very unhappy. Or do silly things with no meaning. I've spoken to an enlightened person that said he felt a deep pain when a loved one died after realisation. From the sound of things, it lasted for much time after the burial.

Claiming an enlightened person wouldn't be sad at someones death because they recognise illusion is the same as saying an enlightened person wouldn't mind starving as they are not their body. You see, there is a difference between enlightenment and super beings.

My point is, enlightened people are all differen. Just like unenlightened people are all different. Most feel emotions, only a special few don't. Just like normal humans. And the time it lasts in each person also varies.

Whether or not you an enlightened person feels emotions doesn't matter. A lot do, and apparently some don't. But even so, that has nothing to do with enlightenment. Whether you eat a bacon sandwich or cheese sandwich has nothing to do with enlightenment.

It is simply the realisation of oneness.
I would lick your feet, but is that the sickest move?

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Re: Tolle video

Post by eputkonen » Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:17 pm

“And there doesn't have to be a deep purpose behind all of their actions, they're not holy beings.”

Actually to be enlightened is to be whole (oneness/unicity – remember)…and thus holy (wholey).

"Claiming an enlightened person wouldn't be sad at someones death because they recognise illusion is the same as saying an enlightened person wouldn't mind starving as they are not their body."

Not nearly the same thing.

You are arguing that after realizing a mirage is a mirage, you would still be anxious for the water that you see and then angry/disappointed that no water was at that location when you reached it. That my friend is being trapped in the illusion still…that is not Liberation (i.e. Enlightenment).

"It is simply the realisation of oneness."

This entails more than a simple mental recognition of oneness or a passing spiritual experience of oneness.
Namaste,

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Re: Tolle video

Post by Intel » Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:56 pm

eputkonen wrote: Actually to be enlightened is to be whole (oneness/unicity – remember)…and thus holy (wholey).
Nice play on words, I wonder if that works in Cantonese. I stand by my previous statement, they're not holy beings.
eputkonen wrote:You are arguing that after realizing a mirage is a mirage, you would still be anxious for the water that you see and then angry/disappointed that no water was at that location when you reached it. That my friend is being trapped in the illusion still…that is not Liberation (i.e. Enlightenment).
I think you twisted my analogy. I'm saying that even though you may call this world a dream, illusion or any other word you like, it still appears the same. And the effects are the same i.e. whether or not you're enlightened, if you're hit on the head with a hammer its gonna hurt. And enlightened or not, sometimes you'll be sad, sometimes you'll be joyful. Experiencing sadness for example doesn't change the fact of oneness you are. It is simply oneness experiencing sadness.
eputkonen wrote:This entails more than a simple mental recognition of oneness or a passing spiritual experience of oneness.
I know. You seem to be squeezing enlightenment into a bubble where you can only act a certain way. It is the ever present realisation of onesness, within which anything can arise, including sadness, anger, hate and other negative things which aren't deemed to be spiritual. If these things couldn't arise, then it wouldn't be Truth, for Truth embraces all, the ugliness of humanity as well as the beauty.
I would lick your feet, but is that the sickest move?

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Re: Tolle video

Post by eputkonen » Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:15 pm

Stalemate...no use going around this circle again (i.e. to hate is to hate oneself [oneness]...which does not make sense if you deeply realize oneness).
Namaste,

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Re: Tolle video

Post by Intel » Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:19 pm

Agreed. I enjoyed our discussion(to love is to love oneself [oneness]...which does not make sense).
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Re: Tolle video

Post by Adahy » Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:53 am

(~.~)
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